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Post by Bolushi on Nov 24, 2023 21:48:23 GMT
I'd say Dogo vs Cougar at parity of 110lbs is the best, there is a lot of substance and testimony in that debate.
Runner-up would be perhaps Kangal vs Gray Wolf?
Jagdterrier vs Ocelot is pretty good too.
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ophio
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Post by ophio on Nov 24, 2023 22:18:03 GMT
Staffy vs wolverine is close imo
I don't think ocelots and bobcats differ that much to make jagd vs bobcat different than jagd vs ocelot.
Sun bear or female black bear vs tosa might be interesting
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Post by Bolushi on Nov 24, 2023 22:27:45 GMT
Ocelots are supposed to be bigger and considerably stronger than bobcats though.
Sun bear vs Tosa is very interesting, it would be a pretty inoffensive wrestling match though, a war of attrition.
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ophio
Ruminant
Posts: 230
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Post by ophio on Nov 24, 2023 22:57:16 GMT
Ocelots are supposed to be bigger and considerably stronger than bobcats though. Sun bear vs Tosa is very interesting, it would be a pretty inoffensive wrestling match though, a war of attrition. I think robusticity the ocelot does perfoum better on although it doesn't translate to an edge in real life competition. In terms of size they are pretty much equal |
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Post by Bolushi on Nov 25, 2023 4:37:17 GMT
Ocelots are supposed to be bigger and considerably stronger than bobcats though. Sun bear vs Tosa is very interesting, it would be a pretty inoffensive wrestling match though, a war of attrition. I think robusticity the ocelot does perfoum better on although it doesn't translate to an edge in real life competition. In terms of size they are pretty much equal The ocelot being superior in robusticity would mean it doesn't die as quick and has more time to cause raking injuries? Perhaps even win a grappling match if it has a meaningful size advantage? The testimony we get with bobcats is that they die quickly and easily and dogs don't respect them at all. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Nov 25, 2023 5:00:10 GMT
I don't think wolf vs kangal is close tbh. The wolf has nothing over it except I guess a little quickness.
Wolf vs apbt is close, because the apbt is so much better at fighting while the wolf has the reach and quick killing ability to potentially shut its lights out quickly, makes it kind of a classic uncertain matchup.
Agree that dogo vs puma is the matchup, that is why it has been such a classic over the years.
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Post by Bolushi on Nov 25, 2023 5:29:33 GMT
I don't think wolf vs kangal is close tbh. The wolf has nothing over it except I guess a little quickness. Wolf vs apbt is close, because the apbt is so much better at fighting while the wolf has the reach and quick killing ability to potentially shut its lights out quickly, makes it kind of a classic uncertain matchup. Agree that dogo vs puma is the matchup, that is why it has been such a classic over the years. Wolf vs fighting Kangal is not close, I think wolf vs LGD Kangal is close. |
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ophio
Ruminant
Posts: 230
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Post by ophio on Nov 25, 2023 6:02:17 GMT
I think robusticity the ocelot does perfoum better on although it doesn't translate to an edge in real life competition. In terms of size they are pretty much equal The ocelot being superior in robusticity would mean it doesn't die as quick and has more time to cause raking injuries? Perhaps even win a grappling match if it has a meaningful size advantage? The testimony we get with bobcats is that they die quickly and easily and dogs don't respect them at all. Probably, ocelots have a stronger bite too so more capability for a quick kill should it gain an edge in the grappling exchange even momentarily. I think kangal/alabai vs snow leopard might also be a good one? |
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Post by s on Nov 25, 2023 10:19:24 GMT
I don't think wolf vs kangal is close tbh. The wolf has nothing over it except I guess a little quickness. Wolf vs apbt is close, because the apbt is so much better at fighting while the wolf has the reach and quick killing ability to potentially shut its lights out quickly, makes it kind of a classic uncertain matchup. Agree that dogo vs puma is the matchup, that is why it has been such a classic over the years. I don't see how a Kangal beating up those manlet Turkish Wolves which they have huge advantages over translates into a Kangal beating a Northwestern Wolf |
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Post by Bolushi on Nov 25, 2023 13:56:34 GMT
I don't think wolf vs kangal is close tbh. The wolf has nothing over it except I guess a little quickness. Wolf vs apbt is close, because the apbt is so much better at fighting while the wolf has the reach and quick killing ability to potentially shut its lights out quickly, makes it kind of a classic uncertain matchup. Agree that dogo vs puma is the matchup, that is why it has been such a classic over the years. I don't see how a Kangal beating up those manlet Turkish Wolves which they have huge advantages over translates into a Kangal beating a Northwestern Wolf Why would there be anything special about the Northwestern Wolf aside from size? "A big dog" and "a big wolf" are evenly matched as far as I'm concerned. The Kangal is bigger too. Also the wolves mauled to death by Kangals tend to be around 80lbs, the Northwestern Wolf is only 20-40lbs bigger than that depending on their food source and time of year. Wolves don't mess with Kangals in North America at all, they don't even mess with Anatolian Shepherds. Only Pyrenees and I guess Maremmas sometimes. |
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Post by s on Nov 25, 2023 16:22:05 GMT
I don't see how a Kangal beating up those manlet Turkish Wolves which they have huge advantages over translates into a Kangal beating a Northwestern Wolf Why would there be anything special about the Northwestern Wolf aside from size? "A big dog" and "a big wolf" are evenly matched as far as I'm concerned. The Kangal is bigger too. Also the wolves mauled to death by Kangals tend to be around 80lbs, the Northwestern Wolf is only 20-40lbs bigger than that depending on their food source and time of year. Wolves don't mess with Kangals in North America at all, they don't even mess with Anatolian Shepherds. Only Pyrenees and I guess Maremmas sometimes. Assuming a 80lbs Turkish Wolf, saying it's similar in power to a 110lbs Northwestern Wolf is a bad take. That's still a 37.5% weight increase. Which also comes with a heavier skull able to deal more powerful snaps. A 37.5% increase is very significant. For a comparison, it's like the weight and power increase from a 130lbs Puma to a 178lbs one (also a 37.5% weight increase) Kangals and Alabais are very rare outside of Turkey and ex-Soviet countries respectively. The fact North American Wolves don't attack them is more because of the fact that they are very rare in North America (especially in Alaska or Yukon where Northwestern Wolves live, Kangals and Alabais aren't really made for harsh cold due to their coat not being particularly thick unlike say a Great Pyrinees. Which was originally created in the Pyrinees mountains between France and Spain, therefore better adapted to Alaskan weather) Also Great Pyrinees, a far more common LGD breed aren't punching bags, far from it, this one killed 8 Coyotes out of a pack of 11: www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/12/09/sheepdog-coyote-attack-killed-eight/ |
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Post by Hardcastle on Nov 25, 2023 16:46:30 GMT
A 110 lbs wolf is indeed a big step up from an 80 lbs wolf, but a 170 lbs kangal that is just as tall and way stronger than a 110 lbs wolf ... why would it give a shit?
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Post by Bolushi on Nov 25, 2023 17:10:39 GMT
Why would there be anything special about the Northwestern Wolf aside from size? "A big dog" and "a big wolf" are evenly matched as far as I'm concerned. The Kangal is bigger too. Also the wolves mauled to death by Kangals tend to be around 80lbs, the Northwestern Wolf is only 20-40lbs bigger than that depending on their food source and time of year. Wolves don't mess with Kangals in North America at all, they don't even mess with Anatolian Shepherds. Only Pyrenees and I guess Maremmas sometimes. Assuming a 80lbs Turkish Wolf, saying it's similar in power to a 110lbs Northwestern Wolf is a bad take. That's still a 37.5% weight increase. Which also comes with a heavier skull able to deal more powerful snaps. A 37.5% increase is very significant. For a comparison, it's like the weight and power increase from a 130lbs Puma to a 178lbs one (also a 37.5% weight increase) Kangals and Alabais are very rare outside of Turkey and ex-Soviet countries respectively. The fact North American Wolves don't attack them is more because of the fact that they are very rare in North America (especially in Alaska or Yukon where Northwestern Wolves live, Kangals and Alabais aren't really made for harsh cold due to their coat not being particularly thick unlike say a Great Pyrinees. Which was originally created in the Pyrinees mountains between France and Spain, therefore better adapted to Alaskan weather) Also Great Pyrinees, a far more common LGD breed aren't punching bags, far from it, this one killed 8 Coyotes out of a pack of 11: www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/12/09/sheepdog-coyote-attack-killed-eight/Northwestern wolf is more formidable than Turkish wolf, but a Kangal still much stronger. So... it is still able to manipulate the wolf's body where it needs to be for the Kangal to kill it. Kangals are not rare at all, Anatolian Kangals (aka Anatolian Shepherds) are ever-abundant here and they are not trashed by any wolf. Wolves will eventually see a Pyrenees's bluff and kill it, but a Kangal will actually follow through most of the time. THAT scares wolves, a dog who is not bluffing, a dog that will gladly kill a wolf. The dogs fairly regularly seize small bears and have killed leopards. Wolves cannot do that. It is painfully obvious Casper is not a pure Pyrenees though? And even so, a wolf is a massive step up from coyote. Pyrenees are killed by wolves a fair amount, this doesn't make them bad, since the fact they die to wolves means they're well-suited to survive amongst wolves if there's so many in wolf country. However there are lots of Anatolian Shepherds in wolf country and few instances of them dying, certainly not 1 on 1. |
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Post by s on Nov 25, 2023 17:34:52 GMT
Assuming a 80lbs Turkish Wolf, saying it's similar in power to a 110lbs Northwestern Wolf is a bad take. That's still a 37.5% weight increase. Which also comes with a heavier skull able to deal more powerful snaps. A 37.5% increase is very significant. For a comparison, it's like the weight and power increase from a 130lbs Puma to a 178lbs one (also a 37.5% weight increase) Kangals and Alabais are very rare outside of Turkey and ex-Soviet countries respectively. The fact North American Wolves don't attack them is more because of the fact that they are very rare in North America (especially in Alaska or Yukon where Northwestern Wolves live, Kangals and Alabais aren't really made for harsh cold due to their coat not being particularly thick unlike say a Great Pyrinees. Which was originally created in the Pyrinees mountains between France and Spain, therefore better adapted to Alaskan weather) Also Great Pyrinees, a far more common LGD breed aren't punching bags, far from it, this one killed 8 Coyotes out of a pack of 11: www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/12/09/sheepdog-coyote-attack-killed-eight/Northwestern wolf is more formidable than Turkish wolf, but a Kangal still much stronger. So... it is still able to manipulate the wolf's body where it needs to be for the Kangal to kill it. Kangals are not rare at all, Anatolian Kangals (aka Anatolian Shepherds) are ever-abundant here and they are not trashed by any wolf. Wolves will eventually see a Pyrenees's bluff and kill it, but a Kangal will actually follow through most of the time. THAT scares wolves, a dog who is not bluffing, a dog that will gladly kill a wolf. The dogs fairly regularly seize small bears and have killed leopards. Wolves cannot do that. It is painfully obvious Casper is not a pure Pyrenees though? And even so, a wolf is a massive step up from coyote. Pyrenees are killed by wolves a fair amount, this doesn't make them bad, since the fact they die to wolves means they're well-suited to survive amongst wolves if there's so many in wolf country. However there are lots of Anatolian Shepherds in wolf country and few instances of them dying, certainly not 1 on 1. Aren't you from Florida? I don't see how your personal experience of Kangals and Alabais being fairly common in Florida translates to them being fairly common in Alaska. Plus they have very different climates. There are also no Wolves in Florida. I could see a Kangal or Alabai chase off a Northwestern Wolf thanks to their intimidating size. But LGDs aren't Boarhounds, they are more meant to intimidate than to fight. A Dogo Argentino has a better chance against a NW Wolf than a Kangal in my opinion. LGDs have indeed killed "Leopards". But the Leopards that have been killed are 30kg Cape Leopards. Not 70kg North Iran Persian Leopards or even regular 60kg African Leopards. They have also been occasionally killed by Cape Leopards as well. Not common but it's been documented. The Bear thing? Kangal fans frequently claim that they beat up Brown Bears. Some of the really crazy ones even claim they "kill the Bears with a single bite". Haven't seen actual objective proof yet though. It's true Small Bears have been fended off by intimidation but they haven't been ever seriously injured, let alone killed. A Kangal is indeed stronger than a Northwestern Wolf, if it was a strenght contest the Kangal wins no questions asked. I favour the Wolf with difficulty due to it's greater speed, agility, stamina and killer instinct. Not because of it's (inferior) strenght. |
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Post by Bolushi on Nov 25, 2023 17:46:08 GMT
Northwestern wolf is more formidable than Turkish wolf, but a Kangal still much stronger. So... it is still able to manipulate the wolf's body where it needs to be for the Kangal to kill it. Kangals are not rare at all, Anatolian Kangals (aka Anatolian Shepherds) are ever-abundant here and they are not trashed by any wolf. Wolves will eventually see a Pyrenees's bluff and kill it, but a Kangal will actually follow through most of the time. THAT scares wolves, a dog who is not bluffing, a dog that will gladly kill a wolf. The dogs fairly regularly seize small bears and have killed leopards. Wolves cannot do that. It is painfully obvious Casper is not a pure Pyrenees though? And even so, a wolf is a massive step up from coyote. Pyrenees are killed by wolves a fair amount, this doesn't make them bad, since the fact they die to wolves means they're well-suited to survive amongst wolves if there's so many in wolf country. However there are lots of Anatolian Shepherds in wolf country and few instances of them dying, certainly not 1 on 1. Aren't you from Florida? I don't see how your personal experience of Kangals and Alabais being fairly common in Florida translates to them being fairly common in Alaska. Plus they have very different climates. There are also no Wolves in Florida. I could see a Kangal or Alabai chase off a Northwestern Wolf thanks to their intimidating size. But LGDs aren't Boarhounds, they are more meant to intimidate than to fight. A Dogo Argentino has a better chance against a NW Wolf than a Kangal in my opinion. LGDs have indeed killed "Leopards". But the Leopards that have been killed are 30kg Cape Leopards. Not 70kg North Iran Persian Leopards or even regular 60kg African Leopards. They have also been occasionally killed by Cape Leopards as well. Not common but it's been documented. The Bear thing? Kangal fans frequently claim that they beat up Brown Bears. Some of the really crazy ones even claim they "kill the Bears with a single bite". Haven't seen actual objective proof yet though. It's true Small Bears have been fended off by intimidation but they haven't been ever seriously injured, let alone killed. A Kangal is indeed stronger than a Northwestern Wolf, if it was a strenght contest the Kangal wins no questions asked. I favour the Wolf with difficulty due to it's greater speed, agility, stamina and killer instinct. Not because of it's (inferior) strenght. By "here" I mean the USA. There are several videos where Kangals grab a bear by the ears and walk it around. 0:23 |
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