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Post by wermthewerm on Nov 26, 2023 18:12:26 GMT
Honestly not sure. My brain really wants to say something like a pitbull vs a mule deer might be the limit but then again the pitbull and bulldogs have really good anti-bull feats, so it leaves me second guessing myself. Maybe a red deer if I were to guess? I think Hardcastle knows more about this considering he knows dogs better than I do I'm not sure about that, if pitbull vs mule deer is where it's at then that would make greyhounds superior to pitbulls. Before the UK banned hunting there were lots of videos of sighthounds, alone or otherwise, killing fairly large deer 1 on 1. It would also make random pet dogs superior/equal - www.fieldandstream.com/conservation/dog-kills-mule-deer-idaho/www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/cops_courts/local/husky-shot-killed-sunday-for-mauling-mule-deer-on-high-school-butte/article_112f6ec0-2de9-5b57-850b-0b9e24d8708c.htmlA red stag is a pretty tough kill, with that being said in historical hunting literature they say a bull breed is worth 3 big strong hunting greyhounds in ability to tackle big game. I saw (you did too) 2 greyhound x collie lurchers giving all hell to a red stag who looked to be on course to be killed. A greyhound x collie lurcher is a little lighter than a greyhound, but smarter and more crafty and sneaky. So if we do some math that would firmly put the red stag in a pitbull's killing wheelhouse. I'm not sure why I'd be too worried about the pitbull. The fact bull breed x whippet/greyhound crosses are regularly bred to kill red stags as well... it still goes on. It was REALLY big when it was banned, it is not even close to being gone, the fact those kind of dogs are still kicking around in the UK indicates it's all still happening and there is video of red stags being hunted with similar dogs. I get where you're coming from but as Supercat posted over on the cheetah vs whitetail thread, a mule deer is on record giving a 70kg cougar hell and injuring it, but yeah. I think that if a red stag were to FIGHT the pitbull, the dog would be in for quite the battle. What do you suggest the best cervid vs domestic canid matchup is?
As for a mule deer, maybe a husky or something along those lines would be good?
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Post by s on Nov 26, 2023 18:12:41 GMT
Homever the article mentions multiple Dogs and the Elk being "repeteadly" shot. Im referring to a 1v1 fight Yes multiple dogs, and the elk were shot close range after being caught and lugged by the dogs. This is an instance where the gun takes the place of the knife. It is not meant to illustrate 1 on 1 superiority, just the fact that the dogs can latch onto the elk and lug it, which is 90% of the battle. If the animal is too tall, then how would multiple dogs make a difference? Do they climb on top of each other? Like in the 3 Alanos vs moose thread on Bestiary, if one can't do it then none can, if they can't reach it. If you had 15 pitbulls fight a giraffe they'd die since there's no way they reach, but if one pitbull was on stilts or something and reached the giraffe one would do it. Also elk fight is by trying to ruck and gore, it is very easy to latch onto one from that point. 3 Dogs have an easier time beating an animal that is too tall than a single Dog. As they can grab it with it's jaws and pull down in coordination. |
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Post by Bolushi on Nov 26, 2023 18:13:23 GMT
Yes multiple dogs, and the elk were shot close range after being caught and lugged by the dogs. This is an instance where the gun takes the place of the knife. It is not meant to illustrate 1 on 1 superiority, just the fact that the dogs can latch onto the elk and lug it, which is 90% of the battle. If the animal is too tall, then how would multiple dogs make a difference? Do they climb on top of each other? Like in the 3 Alanos vs moose thread on Bestiary, if one can't do it then none can, if they can't reach it. If you had 15 pitbulls fight a giraffe they'd die since there's no way they reach, but if one pitbull was on stilts or something and reached the giraffe one would do it. Also elk fight is by trying to ruck and gore, it is very easy to latch onto one from that point. 3 Dogs have an easier time beating an animal that is too tall than a single Dog. As they can grab it with it's jaws and pull down in coordination. I thought the challenge is grabbing the animal to begin with? |
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Post by s on Nov 26, 2023 18:14:47 GMT
3 Dogs have an easier time beating an animal that is too tall than a single Dog. As they can grab it with it's jaws and pull down in coordination. I thought the challenge is grabbing the animal to begin with? The problem is a single Dog will have trouble pulling it down enough to do fatal damage. Plus, it's obvious 3 Dogs do more damage than 1 Dog. |
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Post by Bolushi on Nov 26, 2023 18:25:03 GMT
I'm not sure about that, if pitbull vs mule deer is where it's at then that would make greyhounds superior to pitbulls. Before the UK banned hunting there were lots of videos of sighthounds, alone or otherwise, killing fairly large deer 1 on 1. It would also make random pet dogs superior/equal - www.fieldandstream.com/conservation/dog-kills-mule-deer-idaho/www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/cops_courts/local/husky-shot-killed-sunday-for-mauling-mule-deer-on-high-school-butte/article_112f6ec0-2de9-5b57-850b-0b9e24d8708c.htmlA red stag is a pretty tough kill, with that being said in historical hunting literature they say a bull breed is worth 3 big strong hunting greyhounds in ability to tackle big game. I saw (you did too) 2 greyhound x collie lurchers giving all hell to a red stag who looked to be on course to be killed. A greyhound x collie lurcher is a little lighter than a greyhound, but smarter and more crafty and sneaky. So if we do some math that would firmly put the red stag in a pitbull's killing wheelhouse. I'm not sure why I'd be too worried about the pitbull. The fact bull breed x whippet/greyhound crosses are regularly bred to kill red stags as well... it still goes on. It was REALLY big when it was banned, it is not even close to being gone, the fact those kind of dogs are still kicking around in the UK indicates it's all still happening and there is video of red stags being hunted with similar dogs. I get where you're coming from but as Supercat posted over on the cheetah vs whitetail thread, a mule deer is on record giving a 70kg cougar hell and injuring it, but yeah. I think that if a red stag were to FIGHT the pitbull, the dog would be in for quite the battle. What do you suggest the best cervid vs domestic canid matchup is?
As for a mule deer, maybe a husky or something along those lines would be good?
If a red stag really fights, like not a predatory hunt but a fight where the red stag is fighting fully offensively, that'd be tough, I would just suggest that when a gripping dog gets its jaws on an animal tiers under their usual adversaries (bulls and boars) killing it isn't much of a problem if they can lug it. And the pitbull would eventually get a good hold the red stag can't break out of no matter what. What if we pondered with the idea that a puma isn't as good as these dogs at killing deer? It is up for debate, but their forelimbs do not clamp down with 300-500PSI and crazy grip strength on their opponent. When a puma attacks, its body design is purely for securing a hold and scoring a kill bite in seconds, and if its grappling is not up to par and it misses its ambush, then the cat can end up humiliated in ways a canid would not. A canid can also take knocks a puma cannot, and also is way less susceptible to getting damaged. A pitbull knows how to move and tackles big game shrewdly, trying to minimize any damage to itself while being fully engaged. A puma is not built to deal with powerful, fight-y animals like a bulldog is, it doesn't have the body design or combat intelligence to have the same footwork a canid utilizes to gain advantageous positions over an opponent. That is an impressive feat from the mule deer, no doubt, but also it wouldn't really translate that well IMO. Lots of animals have made pumas look bad after a failed ambush, because then the cat is on the ground getting ravaged. In my opinion I'd say Dogal vs Bull Elk, although it could be argued most Dogals are too light. You'd need a pretty big, strong Dogal, one like this -  For an optimal contest. I'm not sure how big the danger to the dog would be, though. I just know it's be a huge task to bring the elk down, and in a predatory scenario I would favor the dog, but the bull elk could actually escape like they have from lurchers sometimes. If the bull elk really feels inclined to fight it can be a very dangerous opponent. A husky for a mule deer is good. |
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Post by Bolushi on Nov 26, 2023 18:27:09 GMT
I thought the challenge is grabbing the animal to begin with? The problem is a single Dog will have trouble pulling it down enough to do fatal damage. Plus, it's obvious 3 Dogs do more damage than 1 Dog. A single dog can get a hold that the elk can't shake off. 3 dogs do more damage, but 1 dog should be able to do "enough" damage. |
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Post by s on Nov 26, 2023 18:31:34 GMT
I get where you're coming from but as Supercat posted over on the cheetah vs whitetail thread, a mule deer is on record giving a 70kg cougar hell and injuring it, but yeah. I think that if a red stag were to FIGHT the pitbull, the dog would be in for quite the battle. What do you suggest the best cervid vs domestic canid matchup is?
As for a mule deer, maybe a husky or something along those lines would be good?
If a red stag really fights, like not a predatory hunt but a fight where the red stag is fighting fully offensively, that'd be tough, I would just suggest that when a gripping dog gets its jaws on an animal tiers under their usual adversaries (bulls and boars) killing it isn't much of a problem if they can lug it. And the pitbull would eventually get a good hold the red stag can't break out of no matter what. What if we pondered with the idea that a puma isn't as good as these dogs at killing deer? It is up for debate, but their forelimbs do not clamp down with 300-500PSI and crazy grip strength on their opponent. When a puma attacks, its body design is purely for securing a hold and scoring a kill bite in seconds, and if its grappling is not up to par and it misses its ambush, then the cat can end up humiliated in ways a canid would not. A canid can also take knocks a puma cannot, and also is way less susceptible to getting damaged. A pitbull knows how to move and tackles big game shrewdly, trying to minimize any damage to itself while being fully engaged. A puma is not built to deal with powerful, fight-y animals like a bulldog is, it doesn't have the body design or combat intelligence to have the same footwork a canid utilizes to gain advantageous positions over an opponent. That is an impressive feat from the mule deer, no doubt, but also it wouldn't really translate that well IMO. Lots of animals have made pumas look bad after a failed ambush, because then the cat is on the ground getting ravaged. In my opinion I'd say Dogal vs Bull Elk, although it could be argued most Dogals are too light. You'd need a pretty big, strong Dogal, one like this - For an optimal contest. I'm not sure how big the danger to the dog would be, though. I just know it's be a huge task to bring the elk down, and in a predatory scenario I would favor the dog, but the bull elk could actually escape like they have from lurchers sometimes. If the bull elk really feels inclined to fight it can be a very dangerous opponent. A husky for a mule deer is good. Jaw-grappling is better for opponents stronger than you, limb-grappling is better for opponents weaker than you. I say they are better at force and immovilization respectively. Homever, keep in mind that Pumas don't grapple with their limbs when fighting an Elk or something. Would be foolish to try to immobilize an animal over 4 times heavier than you like that. Instead it tries to secure a neck grip with it's jaws. More similar to Dogs. |
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Post by Bolushi on Nov 26, 2023 18:37:37 GMT
If a red stag really fights, like not a predatory hunt but a fight where the red stag is fighting fully offensively, that'd be tough, I would just suggest that when a gripping dog gets its jaws on an animal tiers under their usual adversaries (bulls and boars) killing it isn't much of a problem if they can lug it. And the pitbull would eventually get a good hold the red stag can't break out of no matter what. What if we pondered with the idea that a puma isn't as good as these dogs at killing deer? It is up for debate, but their forelimbs do not clamp down with 300-500PSI and crazy grip strength on their opponent. When a puma attacks, its body design is purely for securing a hold and scoring a kill bite in seconds, and if its grappling is not up to par and it misses its ambush, then the cat can end up humiliated in ways a canid would not. A canid can also take knocks a puma cannot, and also is way less susceptible to getting damaged. A pitbull knows how to move and tackles big game shrewdly, trying to minimize any damage to itself while being fully engaged. A puma is not built to deal with powerful, fight-y animals like a bulldog is, it doesn't have the body design or combat intelligence to have the same footwork a canid utilizes to gain advantageous positions over an opponent. That is an impressive feat from the mule deer, no doubt, but also it wouldn't really translate that well IMO. Lots of animals have made pumas look bad after a failed ambush, because then the cat is on the ground getting ravaged. In my opinion I'd say Dogal vs Bull Elk, although it could be argued most Dogals are too light. You'd need a pretty big, strong Dogal, one like this - For an optimal contest. I'm not sure how big the danger to the dog would be, though. I just know it's be a huge task to bring the elk down, and in a predatory scenario I would favor the dog, but the bull elk could actually escape like they have from lurchers sometimes. If the bull elk really feels inclined to fight it can be a very dangerous opponent. A husky for a mule deer is good. Jaw-grappling is better for opponents stronger than you, limb-grappling is better for opponents weaker than you. I say they are better at force and immovilization respectively. Homever, keep in mind that Pumas don't grapple with their limbs when fighting an Elk or something. Would be foolish to try to immobilize an animal over 4 times heavier than you like that. Instead it tries to secure a neck grip with it's jaws. More similar to Dogs. That is a good way to put it, I agree with that. When pumas go for bull elk they tend to latch onto its head, but this often doesn't end well due to the size difference. Pumas can still succeed on rare occasion but they generally only succeed if the bull elk is compromised in some way. There was a series of slideshow images posted by someone, where a puma attacked what appeared to be a prime bull elk but the puma was getting screwed and ragdolled in the snow, and did not succeed. The puma's inferior skill, struggling capacity and lack of stamina means that on truly big game like bull elk they fall short. Regular elk, pumas prefer to jump on their backs and bring them down that way from what I've seen? |
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Post by wermthewerm on Nov 26, 2023 18:37:53 GMT
I get where you're coming from but as Supercat posted over on the cheetah vs whitetail thread, a mule deer is on record giving a 70kg cougar hell and injuring it, but yeah. I think that if a red stag were to FIGHT the pitbull, the dog would be in for quite the battle. What do you suggest the best cervid vs domestic canid matchup is?
As for a mule deer, maybe a husky or something along those lines would be good?
If a red stag really fights, like not a predatory hunt but a fight where the red stag is fighting fully offensively, that'd be tough, I would just suggest that when a gripping dog gets its jaws on an animal tiers under their usual adversaries (bulls and boars) killing it isn't much of a problem if they can lug it. And the pitbull would eventually get a good hold the red stag can't break out of no matter what. What if we pondered with the idea that a puma isn't as good as these dogs at killing deer? It is up for debate, but their forelimbs do not clamp down with 300-500PSI and crazy grip strength on their opponent. When a puma attacks, its body design is purely for securing a hold and scoring a kill bite in seconds, and if its grappling is not up to par and it misses its ambush, then the cat can end up humiliated in ways a canid would not. A canid can also take knocks a puma cannot, and also is way less susceptible to getting damaged. A pitbull knows how to move and tackles big game shrewdly, trying to minimize any damage to itself while being fully engaged. A puma is not built to deal with powerful, fight-y animals like a bulldog is, it doesn't have the body design or combat intelligence to have the same footwork a canid utilizes to gain advantageous positions over an opponent. That is an impressive feat from the mule deer, no doubt, but also it wouldn't really translate that well IMO. Lots of animals have made pumas look bad after a failed ambush, because then the cat is on the ground getting ravaged. In my opinion I'd say Dogal vs Bull Elk, although it could be argued most Dogals are too light. You'd need a pretty big, strong Dogal, one like this - For an optimal contest. I'm not sure how big the danger to the dog would be, though. I just know it's be a huge task to bring the elk down, and in a predatory scenario I would favor the dog, but the bull elk could actually escape like they have from lurchers sometimes. If the bull elk really feels inclined to fight it can be a very dangerous opponent. A husky for a mule deer is good. I think the elk has the potential to be very dangerous to a dogal. That size advantage coupled with the force behind those horns and hooves could mean really bad news for a dogal. I think a mature bull elk in rut with experience fending off wolves would be a good bet against a dogal, although I will be humble and admit that I don't know too much about dogals other than they're used to hunt boars and cougars
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Post by Bolushi on Nov 26, 2023 18:49:11 GMT
If a red stag really fights, like not a predatory hunt but a fight where the red stag is fighting fully offensively, that'd be tough, I would just suggest that when a gripping dog gets its jaws on an animal tiers under their usual adversaries (bulls and boars) killing it isn't much of a problem if they can lug it. And the pitbull would eventually get a good hold the red stag can't break out of no matter what. What if we pondered with the idea that a puma isn't as good as these dogs at killing deer? It is up for debate, but their forelimbs do not clamp down with 300-500PSI and crazy grip strength on their opponent. When a puma attacks, its body design is purely for securing a hold and scoring a kill bite in seconds, and if its grappling is not up to par and it misses its ambush, then the cat can end up humiliated in ways a canid would not. A canid can also take knocks a puma cannot, and also is way less susceptible to getting damaged. A pitbull knows how to move and tackles big game shrewdly, trying to minimize any damage to itself while being fully engaged. A puma is not built to deal with powerful, fight-y animals like a bulldog is, it doesn't have the body design or combat intelligence to have the same footwork a canid utilizes to gain advantageous positions over an opponent. That is an impressive feat from the mule deer, no doubt, but also it wouldn't really translate that well IMO. Lots of animals have made pumas look bad after a failed ambush, because then the cat is on the ground getting ravaged. In my opinion I'd say Dogal vs Bull Elk, although it could be argued most Dogals are too light. You'd need a pretty big, strong Dogal, one like this - For an optimal contest. I'm not sure how big the danger to the dog would be, though. I just know it's be a huge task to bring the elk down, and in a predatory scenario I would favor the dog, but the bull elk could actually escape like they have from lurchers sometimes. If the bull elk really feels inclined to fight it can be a very dangerous opponent. A husky for a mule deer is good. I think the elk has the potential to be very dangerous to a dogal. That size advantage coupled with the force behind those horns and hooves could mean really bad news for a dogal. I think a mature bull elk in rut with experience fending off wolves would be a good bet against a dogal, although I will be humble and admit that I don't know too much about dogals other than they're used to hunt boars and cougars
Dogals are used to hunt basically everything in Argentina, but boar is their most common quarry, then guanaco, deer/puma, and everything else. They're just Dogo x greyhound hybrids, but Argentinians consider them a breed. They're a little inferior to Dogos, but still pretty tough. Well the difference is a Dogal is much superior to a wolf. A Dogal would throw a wolf, a Dogal would go over a wolf very well. The wolf has no leverage advantage, the only thing the wolf could do is die. There's just no hope. The difference is too massive for the feat to translate. A Dogal doesn't do that, they might bob and weave while coming in if the elk faces it with its antlers, but more than that they're going straight for the elk's head. Once the Dogal latches on, if it starts getting thrashed it will hang and just try not to lose its hold, that's its best bet until the quarry slows down. THEN they will start going for a better hold, and when the quarry gets its 2nd wind the Dogal is securely fastened onto them, they eventually can't do anything anymore. This is normally when a hunter would step in with a knife, but here the Dogal would, eventually, enter the "kill" stage. This could involve just ripping the elk's face off until it dies, tearing out its throat, something like that. If a wolf tried that, it would be killed. A Dogal could be killed as well, it's a hazardous task, but if the Dogal succeeded that's how it would succeed. |
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Post by Bolushi on Nov 26, 2023 18:53:22 GMT
Also see this is what I'm talking about, Dogal vs Bull Elk is one of those matchups where a lot of debate can be had.
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Post by s on Nov 26, 2023 18:58:32 GMT
Also see this is what I'm talking about, Dogal vs Bull Elk is one of those matchups where a lot of debate can be had. What's the most powerful Bovine or Cervid you think a Dog of your choice can realistically kill? |
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Post by Bolushi on Nov 26, 2023 19:04:07 GMT
Also see this is what I'm talking about, Dogal vs Bull Elk is one of those matchups where a lot of debate can be had. What's the most powerful Bovine or Cervid you think a Dog of your choice can realistically kill? For bovines I'd say Spanish fighting bull, it's hell to deal with but also it is objectively not too hard to kill compared to other bovines due to its smaller size. A lot of large farm cattle can be mollywopped by gripping dogs too. For cervids, moose, IF they can reach it. So, I'd be thinking along the lines of a Bullygrey or Bullstag. If the moose tries to ruck and gore, some of the best extant gripping dogs could get a hold the moose can't escape from and they can bring it down that way, and just chew it to death. I wouldn't argue it is the most likely outcome, necessarily, even if the gripping dog is really good. I'd say a "the best to ever do it" gripping dog should probably be favored though. |
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Post by s on Nov 26, 2023 20:05:58 GMT
What's the most powerful Bovine or Cervid you think a Dog of your choice can realistically kill? For bovines I'd say Spanish fighting bull, it's hell to deal with but also it is objectively not too hard to kill compared to other bovines due to its smaller size. A lot of large farm cattle can be mollywopped by gripping dogs too. For cervids, moose, IF they can reach it. So, I'd be thinking along the lines of a Bullygrey or Bullstag. If the moose tries to ruck and gore, some of the best extant gripping dogs could get a hold the moose can't escape from and they can bring it down that way, and just chew it to death. I wouldn't argue it is the most likely outcome, necessarily, even if the gripping dog is really good. I'd say a "the best to ever do it" gripping dog should probably be favored though. Spanish Bull isn't realistically happening. It's far more likely for Bull to kill the Dog to be killed than viceversa. It's actually harder for the Bull to kill a Dog than for it to kill a Brown Bear/Lion/Tiger, not because the Dog is more powerful (because it's obviously not) but because it's small size helps it greatly reduce the full blunt power of a charge. And makes it harder to be gored by horns. Also you are heavily underestimating Spanish Bull durability. In 1.609 there was an incident where after it destroyed a Lion it was shot by a Crossbow (old Crossbow arrows were no joke, they were able to pierce chain mail armour at up to 150 meters) and stung by a Knight's lance before releasing a pack of Gripping Dogs to hunt it down, it still took over an hour for it to die of blood loss. "It is said that, in Valladolid, the King ordered a wooden fence to be made to confront a lion with a brave bull that he owned. The lion was turned over almost instantly, as the bull charged at him very quickly. The lion was fleeing from him, so the bull was stung by a knight. Instead of being scared, he grew angry at the punishment and it was even more difficult to approach him. They shot him with a crossbow and later unleashed dogs on him. After an epic fight against all these adversities, in approximately somewhat over an hour, he bled to death." |
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Post by Bolushi on Nov 26, 2023 20:09:39 GMT
For bovines I'd say Spanish fighting bull, it's hell to deal with but also it is objectively not too hard to kill compared to other bovines due to its smaller size. A lot of large farm cattle can be mollywopped by gripping dogs too. For cervids, moose, IF they can reach it. So, I'd be thinking along the lines of a Bullygrey or Bullstag. If the moose tries to ruck and gore, some of the best extant gripping dogs could get a hold the moose can't escape from and they can bring it down that way, and just chew it to death. I wouldn't argue it is the most likely outcome, necessarily, even if the gripping dog is really good. I'd say a "the best to ever do it" gripping dog should probably be favored though. Spanish Bull isn't realistically happening. It's far more likely for Bull to kill the Dog to be killed than viceversa. It's actually harder for the Bull to kill a Dog than for it to kill a Brown Bear/Lion/Tiger, not because the Dog is more powerful (because it's obviously not) but because it's small size helps it greatly reduce the full blunt power of a charge. And makes it harder to be gored by horns. Also you are heavily underestimating Spanish Bull durability. In 1.609 there was an incident where after it destroyed a Lion it was shot by a Crossbow and pierced by a Knight's lance before releasing a pack of Gripping Dogs to hunt it down, it still took over an hour for it to die of blood loss. "It is said that, in Valladolid, the King ordered a wooden fence to be made to confront a lion with a brave bull that he owned. The lion was turned over almost instantly, as the bull charged at him very quickly. The lion was fleeing from him, so the bull was stung by a knight. Instead of being scared, he grew angry at the punishment and it was even more difficult to approach him. They shot him with a crossbow and later unleashed dogs on him. After an epic fight against all these adversities, in approximately somewhat over an hour, he bled to death." They're very durable, that is part of why it's the hardest but the bigger problem is its speed and aggression. If the spanish bull is subjugated, the threat has been neutralized and they can chew it to death at leisure. Its small size makes this outcome more possible. |
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