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Post by Hardcastle on Nov 25, 2023 17:50:12 GMT
I'd agree a dogo has a better chance against a wolf than a kangal, the mistake is acting like the wolf has somehow earned a place between kangal and dogo, rather than just understanding it isn't really in that league at all. I will say the wolf is generally a wild card where it always has a "puncher's chance", but that puncher's chance is more and more diminished the bigger the dog. So even though there are dogs far above kangal in ability to shitwhip a wolf, the threat of the wolf to win actually decreases with the size and durability of the dog. Making the kangal IMO extremely unlikely to lose.
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Post by s on Nov 25, 2023 17:52:38 GMT
Aren't you from Florida? I don't see how your personal experience of Kangals and Alabais being fairly common in Florida translates to them being fairly common in Alaska. Plus they have very different climates. There are also no Wolves in Florida. I could see a Kangal or Alabai chase off a Northwestern Wolf thanks to their intimidating size. But LGDs aren't Boarhounds, they are more meant to intimidate than to fight. A Dogo Argentino has a better chance against a NW Wolf than a Kangal in my opinion. LGDs have indeed killed "Leopards". But the Leopards that have been killed are 30kg Cape Leopards. Not 70kg North Iran Persian Leopards or even regular 60kg African Leopards. They have also been occasionally killed by Cape Leopards as well. Not common but it's been documented. The Bear thing? Kangal fans frequently claim that they beat up Brown Bears. Some of the really crazy ones even claim they "kill the Bears with a single bite". Haven't seen actual objective proof yet though. It's true Small Bears have been fended off by intimidation but they haven't been ever seriously injured, let alone killed. A Kangal is indeed stronger than a Northwestern Wolf, if it was a strenght contest the Kangal wins no questions asked. I favour the Wolf with difficulty due to it's greater speed, agility, stamina and killer instinct. Not because of it's (inferior) strenght. By "here" I mean the USA. There are several videos where Kangals grab a bear by the ears and walk it around. 0:23 2 Kangals struggling to beat up a very young Bear is more of an anti-Kangal fan argument for the ones that claim they would kill a Kodiak Bear actually. I would see 2 Northwestern Wolves doing the same to a tiny Bear like that one. You also mentioned that LGDs beat up Cape Leopards, while Wolves cannot, suggesting a 50kg Wolf wouldn't defeat a 32kg Cape Leopard is ludicrous. |
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Post by s on Nov 25, 2023 17:57:44 GMT
Anyways. Another reason i believe a NW Wolf would beat a Kangal more often than not because of ABC logic. In Spain Iberian Wolves (40kg average for males) have killed Spanish Mastiffs (common LGD type here. Very similar to Great Pyrinees), therefore it would follow that a Northwestern Wolf (50kg for males) would be able to kill a Kangal.
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Post by s on Nov 25, 2023 18:00:22 GMT
I'd agree a dogo has a better chance against a wolf than a kangal, the mistake is acting like the wolf has somehow earned a place between kangal and dogo, rather than just understanding it isn't really in that league at all. I will say the wolf is generally a wild card where it always has a "puncher's chance", but that puncher's chance is more and more diminished the bigger the dog. So even though there are dogs far above kangal in ability to shitwhip a wolf, the threat of the wolf to win actually decreases with the size and durability of the dog. Making the kangal IMO extremely unlikely to lose. Im thinking of the Wolf's strategy being using it's superior speed, agility and stamina to iniciate hit and run until Kangal dies from blood loss. Assuming it doesn't get caught in the process. |
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Post by Bolushi on Nov 25, 2023 18:04:03 GMT
By "here" I mean the USA. There are several videos where Kangals grab a bear by the ears and walk it around. 0:23 2 Kangals struggling to beat up a very young Bear is more of an anti-Kangal fan argument for the ones that claim they would kill a Kodiak Bear actually. I would see 2 Northwestern Wolves doing the same to a tiny Bear like that one. You also mentioned that LGDs beat up Cape Leopards, while Wolves cannot, suggesting a 50kg Wolf wouldn't defeat a 32kg Cape Leopard is ludicrous. NW wolves get screwed by black bears. A 50kg NW wolf might not beat a 32kg cape leopard, all things considered. It would stand back and the cape leopard could kill it while it does that, if the leopard isn't strong enough for that, underbelly rakings would absolutely fuck the greyhound-like skin of the wolf. |
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Post by s on Nov 25, 2023 18:05:14 GMT
I think robusticity the ocelot does perfoum better on although it doesn't translate to an edge in real life competition. In terms of size they are pretty much equal The ocelot being superior in robusticity would mean it doesn't die as quick and has more time to cause raking injuries? Perhaps even win a grappling match if it has a meaningful size advantage? The testimony we get with bobcats is that they die quickly and easily and dogs don't respect them at all. That's true. On the Carnivore limb robusticity study Ocelot scored 8.68% and Bobcat scored 7.54%. Quite big difference. It's slighty bigger than the one between Snow Leopard and Wolf. |
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Post by Bolushi on Nov 25, 2023 18:05:55 GMT
I'd agree a dogo has a better chance against a wolf than a kangal, the mistake is acting like the wolf has somehow earned a place between kangal and dogo, rather than just understanding it isn't really in that league at all. I will say the wolf is generally a wild card where it always has a "puncher's chance", but that puncher's chance is more and more diminished the bigger the dog. So even though there are dogs far above kangal in ability to shitwhip a wolf, the threat of the wolf to win actually decreases with the size and durability of the dog. Making the kangal IMO extremely unlikely to lose. Im thinking of the Wolf's strategy being using it's superior speed, agility and stamina to iniciate hit and run until Kangal dies from blood loss. Assuming it doesn't get caught in the process. Then why can't Turkish wolves replicate this? The way Canis lupus fights other canids is by walking up to an opponent and trying to win the close quarters engagement, as far as the wolf is concerned it's the same size as the Kangal. It will just find itself overpowered and fucked. |
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Post by s on Nov 25, 2023 18:08:25 GMT
2 Kangals struggling to beat up a very young Bear is more of an anti-Kangal fan argument for the ones that claim they would kill a Kodiak Bear actually. I would see 2 Northwestern Wolves doing the same to a tiny Bear like that one. You also mentioned that LGDs beat up Cape Leopards, while Wolves cannot, suggesting a 50kg Wolf wouldn't defeat a 32kg Cape Leopard is ludicrous. NW wolves get screwed by black bears. A 50kg NW wolf might not beat a 32kg cape leopard, all things considered. It would stand back and the cape leopard could kill it while it does that, if the leopard isn't strong enough for that, underbelly rakings would absolutely fuck the greyhound-like skin of the wolf. The Bear in the video isn't even the size of an adult Black Bear. It's likely young enough (16-17 months) to still be dependant on it's mother. Also a Northwestern Wolf is able to simply one-shot the Cape Leopard. You are also not considering the fact that Cape Leopards are substantially less proportionally powerful than heavier Leopards. |
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Post by s on Nov 25, 2023 18:10:06 GMT
Im thinking of the Wolf's strategy being using it's superior speed, agility and stamina to iniciate hit and run until Kangal dies from blood loss. Assuming it doesn't get caught in the process. Then why can't Turkish wolves replicate this? The way Canis lupus fights other canids is by walking up to an opponent and trying to win the close quarters engagement, as far as the wolf is concerned it's the same size as the Kangal. It will just find itself overpowered and fucked. Because it's almost 40% lighter and it's damage output is far inferior as a result? It's like if i claimed "a 180lbs Puma can do X" and you replied with "then why can't 130lbs Pumas do X, huh?" |
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Post by Bolushi on Nov 25, 2023 18:11:09 GMT
NW wolves get screwed by black bears. A 50kg NW wolf might not beat a 32kg cape leopard, all things considered. It would stand back and the cape leopard could kill it while it does that, if the leopard isn't strong enough for that, underbelly rakings would absolutely fuck the greyhound-like skin of the wolf. The Bear in the video isn't even the size of an adult Black Bear. It's likely young enough (16-17 months) to still be dependant on it's mother. Also a Northwestern Wolf is able to simply one-shot the Cape Leopard. You are also not considering the fact that Cape Leopards are substantially less proportionally powerful than heavier Leopards. The point is, wolves trying to match power with a 200lbs bear will end in disastrous fashion. A wolf could... they could also one-shot 80lbs female cougars, but they can't. A one-shot in a fight between carnivores is very rare, unless one is at a massive size disadvantage. 18kgs isn't there yet. |
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Post by Bolushi on Nov 25, 2023 18:11:40 GMT
Then why can't Turkish wolves replicate this? The way Canis lupus fights other canids is by walking up to an opponent and trying to win the close quarters engagement, as far as the wolf is concerned it's the same size as the Kangal. It will just find itself overpowered and fucked. Because it's almost 40% lighter and it's damage output is far inferior as a result? It's like if i claimed "a 180lbs Puma can do X" and you replied with "then why can't 130lbs Pumas do X, huh?" If they're doing hit and run, Turkish wolf, african wild dog, dhole etc. are all better candidates than the Northwestern wolf though. |
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Post by s on Nov 25, 2023 18:11:47 GMT
Also a Wolf would have a different strategy at fighting say a Coyote than at fighting a Kangal, being (rightly so) far more cautious with the latter.
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Post by Bolushi on Nov 25, 2023 18:12:54 GMT
Also a Wolf would have a different strategy at fighting say a Coyote than at fighting a Kangal, being (rightly so) far more cautious with the latter. If a wolf will fight other wolves, they will fight a big dog like a Kangal, who is the same size in visuals as a Northwestern wolf or even smaller. The wolf is in for a big surprise. |
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Post by s on Nov 25, 2023 18:14:10 GMT
Also a Wolf would have a different strategy at fighting say a Coyote than at fighting a Kangal, being (rightly so) far more cautious with the latter. If a wolf will fight other wolves, they will fight a big dog like a Kangal, who is the same size in visuals as a Northwestern wolf or even smaller. The wolf is in for a big surprise. Intraspecific fight within Wolves. You can see they try to be cautious and don't just charge frontally at each other. |
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Post by Bolushi on Nov 25, 2023 18:15:38 GMT
If a wolf will fight other wolves, they will fight a big dog like a Kangal, who is the same size in visuals as a Northwestern wolf or even smaller. The wolf is in for a big surprise. Intraspecific fight within Wolves. You can see they try to be cautious and don't just charge frontally at each other. When intent to fight is involved, they are not that cautious and that is exactly what they do. See 1:35 Wolves fight like GSDs. |
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