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Post by s on Sept 2, 2023 23:33:09 GMT
I concede this is true. Fighting dogs are probably the animal with the strongest ability at parity to subjugate a Bovine/Ungulate without actually seriously wounding it by exhausting it and poking ears/nose untiI it says "fine, this is not worth the effort" and stops attacking, wasn't denying that, i was simply stating that in the Wild actual killing ability is much much important than subjugating Subjugation ability is more important than killing ability at the end of the day. Nope, Predators can't commit to a multi-hour fight, both because most of them don't have enough stamina for that and because unlike with domestic Dogs getting food/water after the fight isn't guaranteed. Being in a multi-hour fight means huge amounts of precious time taken away from say finding a water source. Lastly, unlike domestic Dogs they don't have veterinarians to recover from the inevitable injuries from the fight. |
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Post by Bolushi on Sept 2, 2023 23:49:34 GMT
Take a 100lb snow leopard, an expert at killing, and see how it does against a pissed off Iberian cow. All that killing ability is irrelevant, cannot subjugate the cow and will be trampled to death. Take a 100lb Alano and it will subjugate that cow no problem and, while it may take an hour or multiple hours, it will kill that cow if left to its own devices. Subjugation ability is more important than killing ability at the end of the day. Iberian cow? I assume you mean "The cows of Fighting Bulls" Uhhh they do exist but aren't used in fighting obviously, just for breeding more bulls, your average cattle cow but more agressive basically. Yes I stipulated cows as it's something an Alano could definitely kill outright if given lots and lots of time. But they're just free-range beef cattle, there is not much special about them and other free-range beef cattle. An Alano could maybe kill a fighting bull too via disfigurement of the face and exhaustion, but ehh. |
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Post by Bolushi on Sept 2, 2023 23:51:13 GMT
Subjugation ability is more important than killing ability at the end of the day. Nope, Predators can't commit to a multi-hour fight, both because most of them don't have enough stamina for that and because unlike with domestic Dogs getting food/water after the fight isn't guaranteed. Being in a multi-hour fight means huge amounts of precious time taken away from say finding a water source. Lastly, unlike domestic Dogs they don't have veterinarians to recover from the inevitable injuries from the fight. You're right but I don't see how this pokes a hole in what I said. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 3, 2023 0:21:42 GMT
Subjugation ability is more important than killing ability at the end of the day. Nope, Predators can't commit to a multi-hour fight, both because most of them don't have enough stamina for that and because unlike with domestic Dogs getting food/water after the fight isn't guaranteed. Being in a multi-hour fight means huge amounts of precious time taken away from say finding a water source. Lastly, unlike domestic Dogs they don't have veterinarians to recover from the inevitable injuries from the fight. Yes, so it's not important in their real lives, the point was it is more important in these hypothetical fights. In real life it doesn't matter who can win a fight, the cat can just wisely avoid a fight and even flee from a fight if its assassination attempt fails. It is losing nothing in real life, but unfortunately cat fans want it to compete in hypothetical gladitorial matchups, THEN we have to start scrutinising its combative shortcomings. The fact it smartly doesn't commit to long fights then suddenly becomes a negative we need to acknowledge to point out it isn't prepared for this matchup. |
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Post by s on Sept 3, 2023 9:44:21 GMT
Iberian cow? I assume you mean "The cows of Fighting Bulls" Uhhh they do exist but aren't used in fighting obviously, just for breeding more bulls, your average cattle cow but more agressive basically. Yes I stipulated cows as it's something an Alano could definitely kill outright if given lots and lots of time. But they're just free-range beef cattle, there is not much special about them and other free-range beef cattle. An Alano could maybe kill a fighting bull too via disfigurement of the face and exhaustion, but ehh. I think you are overselling the Alano's stamina and ability to dodge attacks. "Greyhounds are the fastest dogs on earth reaching speeds of 45 mph with some greyhounds able to maintain 35-mile-per-hour speeds for up to seven miles without tiring." So that's 12 minutes of running at high speed, good stamina but nowhere near the hours mark. Also while im not denying it's possible for them to subjugate bulls, it isn't true that they can't be injured or that it's easy peasy for them "so that rushing at the dogs with great ferocity, breathing fire from their nostrils, hurting the earth with their hooves and making the sand fly into the air, they always show their fronts and hurt their enemies with their horns and with such impetus They attack that with their wounding horns they throw them high into the air and pick them up with the tips of their horns when they fall." |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 3, 2023 10:37:21 GMT
Yes I stipulated cows as it's something an Alano could definitely kill outright if given lots and lots of time. But they're just free-range beef cattle, there is not much special about them and other free-range beef cattle. An Alano could maybe kill a fighting bull too via disfigurement of the face and exhaustion, but ehh. I think you are overselling the Alano's stamina and ability to dodge attacks. "Greyhounds are the fastest dogs on earth reaching speeds of 45 mph with some greyhounds able to maintain 35-mile-per-hour speeds for up to seven miles without tiring." So that's 12 minutes of running at high speed, good stamina but nowhere near the hours mark. Ahh what? Where does one even begin? The fact its two totally different dogs? That would be an ok place, but the difference between anaerobic stamina and aerobic stamina would be good as well, the difference between full intensity sprinting non-stop, and stop-start battle with a bull, where the alano actually rests every time it is hanging on the nose and being whipped around. That stamina from the greyhound in your example is actually not "good". It is INSANE. Wolves have good stamina right? Do you think they can sprint at 35 mph for seven miles? I promise they can't. They couldn't even do it for 1 mile, they could maybe do it for about 200 yards. They can travel well over 40 miles (possibly even up to 100 on rare occassions), but they travel at about 6-12 mph. They can jog for hours, but they can only sprint for seconds. Two totally different types of stamina. Sighthounds are very special with their ability to sprint long distances. But yes it is for minutes, not hours. Still a rare super ability. In a battle with a bull, an alano will be utilising both kinds of stamina; aerobic and anaerobic, and also utilising strategic stamina conservation and resting periods. With all this combined it can potentially go for hours, though hopefully wouldn't need to. It may though, if we task it with killing the poor bull. I doubt anyone was implying they can't be hurt subjugating bulls, if that was true it wouldn't even be an impressive feat. |
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Post by s on Sept 3, 2023 12:46:56 GMT
I think you are overselling the Alano's stamina and ability to dodge attacks. "Greyhounds are the fastest dogs on earth reaching speeds of 45 mph with some greyhounds able to maintain 35-mile-per-hour speeds for up to seven miles without tiring." So that's 12 minutes of running at high speed, good stamina but nowhere near the hours mark. Ahh what? Where does one even begin? The fact its two totally different dogs? That would be an ok place, but the difference between anaerobic stamina and aerobic stamina would be good as well, the difference between full intensity sprinting non-stop, and stop-start battle with a bull, where the alano actually rests every time it is hanging on the nose and being whipped around. That stamina from the greyhound in your example is actually not "good". It is INSANE. Wolves have good stamina right? Do you think they can sprint at 35 mph for seven miles? I promise they can't. They couldn't even do it for 1 mile, they could maybe do it for about 200 yards. They can travel well over 40 miles (possibly even up to 100 on rare occassions), but they travel at about 6-12 mph. They can jog for hours, but they can only sprint for seconds. Two totally different types of stamina. Sighthounds are very special with their ability to sprint long distances. But yes it is for minutes, not hours. Still a rare super ability. In a battle with a bull, an alano will be utilising both kinds of stamina; aerobic and anaerobic, and also utilising strategic stamina conservation and resting periods. With all this combined it can potentially go for hours, though hopefully wouldn't need to. It may though, if we task it with killing the poor bull. I used Greyhounds since they are the dogs with the most stamina, and even then they can't get anything close to the "mantaining high performance for hours" part. Therefore i find it highly unlikely for an Alano to mantain peak combat performance for "hours", especially with an animal as energetic as SFB. Those resting periods would last what? 10 seconds? That isn't nearly enough |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 3, 2023 17:59:39 GMT
Ahh what? Where does one even begin? The fact its two totally different dogs? That would be an ok place, but the difference between anaerobic stamina and aerobic stamina would be good as well, the difference between full intensity sprinting non-stop, and stop-start battle with a bull, where the alano actually rests every time it is hanging on the nose and being whipped around. That stamina from the greyhound in your example is actually not "good". It is INSANE. Wolves have good stamina right? Do you think they can sprint at 35 mph for seven miles? I promise they can't. They couldn't even do it for 1 mile, they could maybe do it for about 200 yards. They can travel well over 40 miles (possibly even up to 100 on rare occassions), but they travel at about 6-12 mph. They can jog for hours, but they can only sprint for seconds. Two totally different types of stamina. Sighthounds are very special with their ability to sprint long distances. But yes it is for minutes, not hours. Still a rare super ability. In a battle with a bull, an alano will be utilising both kinds of stamina; aerobic and anaerobic, and also utilising strategic stamina conservation and resting periods. With all this combined it can potentially go for hours, though hopefully wouldn't need to. It may though, if we task it with killing the poor bull. I used Greyhounds since they are the dogs with the most stamina, and even then they can't get anything close to the "mantaining high performance for hours" part. Therefore i find it highly unlikely for an Alano to mantain peak combat performance for "hours", especially with an animal as energetic as SFB. Those resting periods would last what? 10 seconds? That isn't nearly enough Where do you get this stuff? Greyhounds aren't the dog with the most stamina, not even vaguely close. The dog with the most stamina are Iditarod dogs which run over 100 miles per day, every day for 8-10 days in a row. Track greyhounds run about 1 km once a day maybe. They have good anaerobic stamina for sustained sprinting, but not as good as most other sighthounds. All sighthounds have relatively poor aerobic stamina compared to most dogs, because they are almost entirely comprised of fast twitch muscles. An Alano is balanced with fast twitch and slow twitch, and balanced with decent anaerobic stamina and decent aerobic stamina. It can't sprint for KMs, or run for 100 miles, but it can battle a bull potentially for over an hour using its strategy of shifting between anaerobic and aerobic exertion and taking opportunities to rest whenever the bill is exerting itself trying to shake them off, by using the right strategies it can make sure the bull never rests and make sure it does rest itself whenever the bill is spazzing out, and with this it can make the bull wear out faster. It shouldn't need an hour, but is ready to if the bull proves especially difficult and beats it up for a while to begin the battle. |
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Post by s on Sept 3, 2023 22:00:58 GMT
I used Greyhounds since they are the dogs with the most stamina, and even then they can't get anything close to the "mantaining high performance for hours" part. Therefore i find it highly unlikely for an Alano to mantain peak combat performance for "hours", especially with an animal as energetic as SFB. Those resting periods would last what? 10 seconds? That isn't nearly enough Where do you get this stuff? Greyhounds aren't the dog with the most stamina, not even vaguely close. The dog with the most stamina are Iditarod dogs which run over 100 miles per day, every day for 8-10 days in a row. Track greyhounds run about 1 km once a day maybe. They have good anaerobic stamina for sustained sprinting, but not as good as most other sighthounds. All sighthounds have relatively poor aerobic stamina compared to most dogs, because they are almost entirely comprised of fast twitch muscles. An Alano is balanced with fast twitch and slow twitch, and balanced with decent anaerobic stamina and decent aerobic stamina. It can't sprint for KMs, or run for 100 miles, but it can battle a bull potentially for over an hour using its strategy of shifting between anaerobic and aerobic exertion and taking opportunities to rest whenever the bill is exerting itself trying to shake them off, by using the right strategies it can make sure the bull never rests and make sure it does rest itself whenever the bill is spazzing out, and with this it can make the bull wear out faster. It shouldn't need an hour, but is ready to if the bull proves especially difficult and beats it up for a while to begin the battle. If i Was wrong thank you for correcting me, as i said im not a dog expert, far from it, but even if Greyhounds aren't #1 among dogs in stamina at least they are among the first few no? At least from what i have heard |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 3, 2023 22:31:14 GMT
Where do you get this stuff? Greyhounds aren't the dog with the most stamina, not even vaguely close. The dog with the most stamina are Iditarod dogs which run over 100 miles per day, every day for 8-10 days in a row. Track greyhounds run about 1 km once a day maybe. They have good anaerobic stamina for sustained sprinting, but not as good as most other sighthounds. All sighthounds have relatively poor aerobic stamina compared to most dogs, because they are almost entirely comprised of fast twitch muscles. An Alano is balanced with fast twitch and slow twitch, and balanced with decent anaerobic stamina and decent aerobic stamina. It can't sprint for KMs, or run for 100 miles, but it can battle a bull potentially for over an hour using its strategy of shifting between anaerobic and aerobic exertion and taking opportunities to rest whenever the bill is exerting itself trying to shake them off, by using the right strategies it can make sure the bull never rests and make sure it does rest itself whenever the bill is spazzing out, and with this it can make the bull wear out faster. It shouldn't need an hour, but is ready to if the bull proves especially difficult and beats it up for a while to begin the battle. If i Was wrong thank you for correcting me, as i said im not a dog expert, far from it, but even if Greyhounds aren't #1 among dogs in stamina at least they are among the first few no? At least from what i have heard No. As far as just stamina goes, they are low. Most of the time I have to argue with people saying they have "pathetic" stamina, with many people thinking they are like cheetahs. All sighthounds have great anaerobic stamina. Anaerobic stamina is the ability to endure extremely high exertion for an extended time. But when you are talking "extremely high anaerobic exertion" that "extended time" is always going to be very short. For most animals no longer than 20 seconds or so, and that is because your body can't process oxygen while in that state of high intensity effort. The fast twitch muscle fibres that become engaged in that situation can't use oxygen, so they are starving and suffocating while you are exerting yourself, and you very quickly wear out. Even if you have "good stamina". Good stamina usually means aerobic endurance, that is for example jogging. In that situation your slow twitch muscles are engaged and, depending on your cardio vascular fitness, they are processing oxygen to sustain your effort and keep you going. Most animals with good stamina have strong aerobic fitness and are good at processing oxygen during low-intensity exertion. Usually animals with lots of fast twitch muscles have poor stamina, they are explosive and fast and powerful but they can only be active with high intensity for very short bursts before their muscles give out from oxygen depravation. Sighthounds are actually unique in that they have a different type of fast twitch muscle, literally called "Type IIB" instead of "Type IIA", and their fast twitch muslces actually CAN process oxygen and this, along with freakish cardio vascular systems (huge heart and lungs, high quantity of blood and high number of red blood cells) allows them to sustain high intensity for longer, but "longer" is still at best minutes, not HOURS like animals with good aerobic endurance. The fact they still are mostly fast twitch muscle means their aerobic endurance is not great. Huskies and collies and hounds and pointers and etc have much better aerobic endurance. So do wolves. They can jog for hours and hours and hours, and greyhounds can't. Especially english greyhounds, as elite "tip of the spear" performance athletes, they have to sacrifice as much as they can to have as explosive acceleration as possible and highest intensity exertion as possible, running as "hot" as possible and etc. Among dogs they are not considered to have "good stamina", but I always like to correct people and point out they have great anaerobic stamina compared to most animals with great stamina. |
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