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Post by s on Sept 1, 2023 14:15:41 GMT
Lol, unlike Bulldog (who is unremarkable in weaponry, Pitbulls have dentition only slighty better than that of Coyotes) Wolf has great weaponry. Also the Wolf's skin is probably thicker than that of the Bulldog as well, if anyone is going to get it's insides opened by a "rough tug of the legs" it would be the Bulldog. Wolves have skin thinner than a lot of sighthounds. A bulldog's skin is about 5x thicker or more, it is not close. Then on top of that wolves are extremely gracile compared to lots of dogs. They just come crashing down like a sack of potatoes and cannot regain their footing afterwards. There is a video of 2 big Spitz dogs killing a wolf (one did most of the work) and the resistance in the wolf's body was absolutely pathetic. Also the wolf has a better "punch" but a bulldog has a better "grappling arm". A gripping dog's teeth suit its style perfectly. "A boxer punches harder than Khabib does sooo that's a stronger punch boxer wins" is dumb and you are doing that here. For personal reference if I tug on the leg of my Spitz mutt (better than wolf btw but close enough) and feel its neck and then try the same with my uncle's pitbull it is very apparent which dog would get its sternum broken and get screwed first, and also who had thicker skin which was not close. My dog would get trashed horribly despite his superior tooth length and whatever. Also some pitbulls I have known where about equal in weight to my dog but an inch or so shorter meaning it is considerably stronger. Math checked out in reality when a fight did happen. We don't know how thick Pitbull skin is, homever it's likely it's thinner than that of a Wolf because as a general rule, lighter and smaller animals have thinner skill. My argument is that being attacked by a Wolf is probably more dangerous to a human than being attacked by a Bulldog, as the short teeth if the Bulldog would take much more than the Wolf's to inflict significant damage I don't know whats up with some fighting dog-lovers and hating wolves, your beloved Bulldogs wouldn't exist if Wolves hadn't existed, remember that all Dog breeds are called "Canis Lupus Familiaris" because they are descended from Wolves that through generations of selecting certain traits humans thousands of years ago bred for specific purposes. |
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Post by s on Sept 1, 2023 15:55:15 GMT
Also Bolushi i find your tier list quite funny, where would you place the Bears?
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Post by Bolushi on Sept 1, 2023 16:02:42 GMT
Wolves have skin thinner than a lot of sighthounds. A bulldog's skin is about 5x thicker or more, it is not close. Then on top of that wolves are extremely gracile compared to lots of dogs. They just come crashing down like a sack of potatoes and cannot regain their footing afterwards. There is a video of 2 big Spitz dogs killing a wolf (one did most of the work) and the resistance in the wolf's body was absolutely pathetic. Also the wolf has a better "punch" but a bulldog has a better "grappling arm". A gripping dog's teeth suit its style perfectly. "A boxer punches harder than Khabib does sooo that's a stronger punch boxer wins" is dumb and you are doing that here. For personal reference if I tug on the leg of my Spitz mutt (better than wolf btw but close enough) and feel its neck and then try the same with my uncle's pitbull it is very apparent which dog would get its sternum broken and get screwed first, and also who had thicker skin which was not close. My dog would get trashed horribly despite his superior tooth length and whatever. Also some pitbulls I have known where about equal in weight to my dog but an inch or so shorter meaning it is considerably stronger. Math checked out in reality when a fight did happen. We don't know how thick Pitbull skin is, homever it's likely it's thinner than that of a Wolf because as a general rule, lighter and smaller animals have thinner skill. My argument is that being attacked by a Wolf is probably more dangerous to a human than being attacked by a Bulldog, as the short teeth if the Bulldog would take much more than the Wolf's to inflict significant damage I don't know whats up with some fighting dog-lovers and hating wolves, your beloved Bulldogs wouldn't exist if Wolves hadn't existed, remember that all Dog breeds are called "Canis Lupus Familiaris" because they are descended from Wolves that through generations of selecting certain traits humans thousands of years ago bred for specific purposes. I will post sources for what I said later when I'm on a computer but I will say I don't hate wolves and everyone knows that. I often argue that they aren't so outgunned by a parity cougar despite being much weaker physically, for example. I also think a gray wolf probably beats a pitbull. I've watched 100s of wolf documentaries, videos and shows over the years since I was maybe 7 or 8 and appreciate them a lot. Now, sometimes, I absolutely do hate wolves. But it is due to wolf fans. Also it is suspected wolves and dogs instead evolved separately from a common ancestor or a Japanese wolf. If gray wolf does not exist... then what. |
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Post by s on Sept 1, 2023 19:55:47 GMT
Also Bolushi i find your tier list quite funny, where would you place the Bears? I guess Polar and Kodiak would be S bur what do you think about the placement of smaller bears? |
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Post by Bolushi on Sept 1, 2023 20:50:06 GMT
For smaller bears I'd say the sloth bear gets a C and the sun bear get a D. While these are formidable bear species, in this contest they don't have the skills the other contenders do to compensate for their size. Asiatic black bear a B, Spectacled bear... unknown but probably B and potentially even A. Panda is F.
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Post by Bolushi on Sept 1, 2023 21:14:35 GMT
Wolves have skin thinner than a lot of sighthounds. A bulldog's skin is about 5x thicker or more, it is not close. Then on top of that wolves are extremely gracile compared to lots of dogs. They just come crashing down like a sack of potatoes and cannot regain their footing afterwards. There is a video of 2 big Spitz dogs killing a wolf (one did most of the work) and the resistance in the wolf's body was absolutely pathetic. Also the wolf has a better "punch" but a bulldog has a better "grappling arm". A gripping dog's teeth suit its style perfectly. "A boxer punches harder than Khabib does sooo that's a stronger punch boxer wins" is dumb and you are doing that here. For personal reference if I tug on the leg of my Spitz mutt (better than wolf btw but close enough) and feel its neck and then try the same with my uncle's pitbull it is very apparent which dog would get its sternum broken and get screwed first, and also who had thicker skin which was not close. My dog would get trashed horribly despite his superior tooth length and whatever. Also some pitbulls I have known where about equal in weight to my dog but an inch or so shorter meaning it is considerably stronger. Math checked out in reality when a fight did happen. We don't know how thick Pitbull skin is, homever it's likely it's thinner than that of a Wolf because as a general rule, lighter and smaller animals have thinner skill. My argument is that being attacked by a Wolf is probably more dangerous to a human than being attacked by a Bulldog, as the short teeth if the Bulldog would take much more than the Wolf's to inflict significant damage I don't know whats up with some fighting dog-lovers and hating wolves, your beloved Bulldogs wouldn't exist if Wolves hadn't existed, remember that all Dog breeds are called "Canis Lupus Familiaris" because they are descended from Wolves that through generations of selecting certain traits humans thousands of years ago bred for specific purposes. "Skin the wolf as quickly as possible. Wolves are big animals with thick fur. This means that their bodies hold heat much longer than many other animals. If an animal’s skin isn’t cooled fast enough, bacteria will begin to grow and it can result in slippage (skin decomposition that causes the hair and bits of skin to loosen and come off). Once it starts, it cannot be reversed, so you want to avoid it at all costs. Although they are big animals, wolves have much thinner and more fragile skin than deer or other big-game animals. You may want to spend the day driving it around showing your buddies, but you should get it skinned as quickly as you can." Wolves do in fact have very thin skin, while gripping dogs have very thick skin, so despite the size difference there's no way the pitbull's skin won't be thicker. Their skin is thicker than human skin, y'know... a much larger animal. Being attacked by a wolf is worse depending on how the wolf treats you. If the wolf chomps and releases you are fucked, more than you would be with the bulldog. Get bit by the bulldog and 99% of the time you are fucked too because evidently crippling pain, but you can grab a gripping dog's neck skin and stop it from getting to you. Wolves uhh... do not have that neck skin because their skin is... much thinner. Lol. So are their bones. So literally just grab its leg and twist as much as you can. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 1, 2023 23:12:04 GMT
Wolf hide is thin for the same reason their bones are thin, they have a bevvy of weight-shedding adaptations to compensate for being so big (big enough to take down an elk or whatever), but also energy-conserving enough to travel 30 miles a day patrolling their vast territory and testing and moving herds and etc etc. Anywhere they could shed weight they did, and one place was in the thickness of their hide. Even sled dogs have significantly thicker skin than wolves, to such an extent indigenous arctic peoples knew you have to make boots out of dog hide, not wolf hide, as the dog hide was thicker and more resilient. From there dog hides can get thicker and thicker. As an extreme example you have tosas and neapolitan mastiffs that have extremely thick skin which actually weighs a lot, just as they also have very thick heavy bones. This makes them more durable to damage, and tosas rarely have their skin torn significantly in their fights, even though when a tosa fights another dog on the street it often rips it to pieces. It's not their teeth or bite preventing damage in the fights, it is their skin.
Apbts have thick skin, but no where near as thick as a tosa. Bulldogs have thick skin, but terriers not necessarily, and sighthounds not either (some have very thin skin, greyhounds and whippets have thinner skin than wolves probably). So when you look at bull terriers and bull lurchers you start getting dogs with more vulnerable skin prone to slashing and wounding, but only when compared to tosas and neos and DDBs and stuff like that, compared to a husky they still have thick skin, and as mentioned huskies have thick skin compared to wolves. Some dogs have intentionally thin skin as a weight shedding adaptation, and the wolf is among those dogs. Its skin is thinner than "default". It is not a default dog, it is a specialised marathon runner with fairly extreme adaptations for that.
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Post by s on Sept 1, 2023 23:19:09 GMT
Wolf hide is thin for the same reason their bones are thin, they have a bevvy of weight-shedding adaptations to compensate for being so big (big enough to take down an elk or whatever), but also energy-conserving enough to travel 30 miles a day patrolling their vast territory and testing and moving herds and etc etc. Anywhere they could shed weight they did, and one place was in the thickness of their hide. Even sled dogs have significantly thicker skin than wolves, to such an extent indigenous arctic peoples knew you have to make boots out of dog hide, not wolf hide, as the dog hide was thicker and more resilient. From there dog hides can get thicker and thicker. As an extreme example you have tosas and neapolitan mastiffs that have extremely thick skin which actually weighs a lot, just as they also have very thick heavy bones. This makes them more durable to damage, and tosas rarely have their skin torn significantly in their fights, even though when a tosa fights another dog on the street it often rips it to pieces. It's not their teeth or bite preventing damage in the fights, it is their skin. Apbts have thick skin, but no where near as thick as a tosa. Bulldogs have thick skin, but terriers not necessarily, and sighthounds not either (some have very thin skin, greyhounds and whippets have thinner skin than wolves probably). So when you look at bull terriers and bull lurchers you start getting dogs with more vulnerable skin prone to slashing and wounding, but only when compared to tosas and neos and DDBs and stuff like that, compared to a husky they still have thick skin, and as mentioned huskies have thick skin compared to wolves. Some dogs have intentionally thin skin as a weight shedding adaptation, and the wolf is among those dogs. Its skin is thinner than "default". It is not a default dog, it is a specialised marathon runner with fairly extreme adaptations for that. At parity perhaps It does have thinner skin, homever a 50lbs Bulldog wouldn't have thicker skin than a 115lbs MacKenzie Wolf |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 1, 2023 23:39:03 GMT
That would appear to be a totally baseless statement that can definitely be totally disregarded as absolutely false.
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Post by s on Sept 2, 2023 13:29:06 GMT
 Subjugation capacities of domestic dogs and various wild carnivores. I wish there were a few other breeds included, like the Alano Espanol, but whatever. I am a bit surprised at 2-3 lions being equal to one Dogo, if there was an ''S+'' tier they would be there. Here is a detail I want uneducated guys to notice. The dogs in A are 1 of 2 things: Too small Too big A and S are a bit interchangeable as well, but I was assuming really good fighting bull and cape buffalo and I doubt a lion or tiger could achieve that more often than not and sincerely thought about cape buffalo being in S which would reshape the list. I was dealing with a lot of animals and limited tiers so bear with me there lol. Before you fall me a Cat Fanboy, i actually think you have overrated the Felines. No extant Feline would beat an adult male Water Buffalo or an adult male Bison more often than not, you need a Kodiak/Polar Bear or something for that. A lot of Ungulates are underrated, like Gemsbok, who has actually killed Lions. Not seeing a Puma beating that. Now to the real Gem, Pitbull, Bully Kuta and other dogs being on A Tier, sure, if we define winning as simply surviving then a Pitbull has a high chance of "winning" against a Bison, as since its very short and small compared to the Bison it's attacks and charges are less effective, since Pitbull can more easily dodge them compared to say a Grizzly Bear. But if we define winning as killing the Bison/Buffalo, i would please ask you to explain how do you think Pitbull/BK is going to do it, would it get under the Bison/Buffalo, grab onto its belly, and then tear its guts out? |
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Post by Bolushi on Sept 2, 2023 15:56:44 GMT
Subjugation capacities of domestic dogs and various wild carnivores. I wish there were a few other breeds included, like the Alano Espanol, but whatever. I am a bit surprised at 2-3 lions being equal to one Dogo, if there was an ''S+'' tier they would be there. Here is a detail I want uneducated guys to notice. The dogs in A are 1 of 2 things: Too small Too big A and S are a bit interchangeable as well, but I was assuming really good fighting bull and cape buffalo and I doubt a lion or tiger could achieve that more often than not and sincerely thought about cape buffalo being in S which would reshape the list. I was dealing with a lot of animals and limited tiers so bear with me there lol. Before you fall me a Cat Fanboy, i actually think you have overrated the Felines. No extant Feline would beat an adult male Water Buffalo or an adult male Bison more often than not, you need a Kodiak/Polar Bear or something for that. A lot of Ungulates are underrated, like Gemsbok, who has actually killed Lions. Not seeing a Puma beating that. Now to the real Gem, Pitbull, Bully Kuta and other dogs being on A Tier, sure, if we define winning as simply surviving then a Pitbull has a high chance of "winning" against a Bison, as since its very short and small compared to the Bison it's attacks and charges are less effective, since Pitbull can more easily dodge them compared to say a Grizzly Bear. But if we define winning as killing the Bison/Buffalo, i would please ask you to explain how do you think Pitbull/BK is going to do it, would it get under the Bison/Buffalo, grab onto its belly, and then tear its guts out? Good point with the felines. That's not a killing competition, it's a subjugation competition. If needing to kill was stipulated, then some dog rankings would drop a bit. Now, killing is still possible by subjugating for a while and then when all fight is taken out of the monstrous beast of an animal you can slowly but surely maul it into oblivion but for some of these animals I'm not so sure that's feasible. Most Bully Kuttas would get smashed into pieces. It's better than a pitbull for a boar, even much better if we assumed neither got much vest, but much much worse for a bull where it will likely get crushed due to being so large. I should probably redo that tierlist since in hindsight the BK and the Tosa (most of them, anyway) are not as good at subjugating due to body design. |
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Post by s on Sept 2, 2023 16:21:55 GMT
Before you fall me a Cat Fanboy, i actually think you have overrated the Felines. No extant Feline would beat an adult male Water Buffalo or an adult male Bison more often than not, you need a Kodiak/Polar Bear or something for that. A lot of Ungulates are underrated, like Gemsbok, who has actually killed Lions. Not seeing a Puma beating that. Now to the real Gem, Pitbull, Bully Kuta and other dogs being on A Tier, sure, if we define winning as simply surviving then a Pitbull has a high chance of "winning" against a Bison, as since its very short and small compared to the Bison it's attacks and charges are less effective, since Pitbull can more easily dodge them compared to say a Grizzly Bear. But if we define winning as killing the Bison/Buffalo, i would please ask you to explain how do you think Pitbull/BK is going to do it, would it get under the Bison/Buffalo, grab onto its belly, and then tear its guts out? Good point with the felines. That's not a killing competition, it's a subjugation competition. If needing to kill was stipulated, then some dog rankings would drop a bit. Now, killing is still possible by subjugating for a while and then when all fight is taken out of the monstrous beast of an animal you can slowly but surely maul it into oblivion but for some of these animals I'm not so sure that's feasible. Most Bully Kuttas would get smashed into pieces. It's better than a pitbull for a boar, even much better if we assumed neither got much vest, but much much worse for a bull where it will likely get crushed due to being so large. I should probably redo that tierlist since in hindsight the BK and the Tosa (most of them, anyway) are not as good at subjugating due to body design. If you ask me Alaskan Moose, Wild Yak and maybe Gaur are the toughest Ungulates i can see a Lion or Bengal Tiger beating more often than not "Subjugating" is a very broad word. Subduing an extremely overweight, therefore with terrible stamina and unagressive cattle bull is going to be much easier than subjugating a Cape Buffalo, despite them being about the same weight. It's nearly impossible to subjugate a Cape Buffalo without killing (duh) or seriously wounding him. And gripping dogs are pretty bad at doing both of those things due to their short teeth. Same goes with Yak, Domesticated Yak are preyed on quite comfortably by Snow Leopards, while Wild ones at least put up a fight. Putting Boar on the same tier as Bison and Moose is an extremely bad take as well 4 Iberian Wolves (smallish Wolf sub-species) defeating a Boar without much difficulty. 2-3 are enough to do it i guess. I don't see 2-3 smallish Wolves being enough for a Moose or let alone Bison. Subjugating a Spanish Fighting Bull is nearly impossible, many Bullfight they fought until dying from blood loss rather than giving up. They aren't called "Toros Bravos" (Brave Bulls) for no reason. There are accounts of them being hitted by Crossbow arrows or stung by the Knights' Lances and not only not causing them to be "Subjugated", but becoming even angrier and making it even harder to get close to them. es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toros_c%C3%A9lebresYou can see lots of cases of bleeding out Lidia Bulls fighting until dying here. Spanish fighting bulls are most likely THE hardest Bovine to subjugate. With insane pain tolerance. If 1-2 Alanos would have been enough to subjugate it then only 1-2 Alanos would have been used in those Bullfights from centuries ago since expectators prefer an epic and even out fight. In reality homever 5-7 Alanos were used. Alano is a very strong dog breed. I favour them over Pitbulls and Dogos. But they have their limits like all animals, closest thing i Was able to find to a single Alano """subjugating""" a fighting bull was one of them solving a dispute between 2 Bulls that were fighting each other by staying in the middle. But that's not """subjugating""" even in the broadest definition, it's simply conflict resolution through a third party. |
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Post by s on Sept 2, 2023 16:28:18 GMT
"In 1890, the work “Diálogos de Montería” describes one of the most daring and exciting hunting specialties: night wild boar hunting. In this work, the dogs necessary for this purpose are differentiated and preferential prominence is given to the heavy greyhound: “6 dogs are necessary...two masters to discover the hunt; and two middle men that serve as stop reinforcement until the alanos arrive; heavier than any other dog, so due to their nature and their weapons for defense, they prey on the wild boar's ears until the huntsman comes to finish them off with a dagger."
Got this from an Alano Español website
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Post by Bolushi on Sept 2, 2023 17:00:01 GMT
Good point with the felines. That's not a killing competition, it's a subjugation competition. If needing to kill was stipulated, then some dog rankings would drop a bit. Now, killing is still possible by subjugating for a while and then when all fight is taken out of the monstrous beast of an animal you can slowly but surely maul it into oblivion but for some of these animals I'm not so sure that's feasible. Most Bully Kuttas would get smashed into pieces. It's better than a pitbull for a boar, even much better if we assumed neither got much vest, but much much worse for a bull where it will likely get crushed due to being so large. I should probably redo that tierlist since in hindsight the BK and the Tosa (most of them, anyway) are not as good at subjugating due to body design. If you ask me Alaskan Moose, Wild Yak and maybe Gaur are the toughest Ungulates i can see a Lion or Bengal Tiger beating more often than not "Subjugating" is a very broad word. Subduing an extremely overweight, therefore with terrible stamina and unagressive cattle bull is going to be much easier than subjugating a Cape Buffalo, despite them being about the same weight. It's nearly impossible to subjugate a Cape Buffalo without killing (duh) or seriously wounding him. And gripping dogs are pretty bad at doing both of those things due to their short teeth. Same goes with Yak, Domesticated Yak are preyed on quite comfortably by Snow Leopards, while Wild ones at least put up a fight. Putting Boar on the same tier as Bison and Moose is an extremely bad take as well 4 Iberian Wolves (smallish Wolf sub-species) defeating a Boar without much difficulty. 2-3 are enough to do it i guess. I don't see 2-3 smallish Wolves being enough for a Moose or let alone Bison. Subjugating a Spanish Fighting Bull is nearly impossible, many Bullfight they fought until dying from blood loss rather than giving up. They aren't called "Toros Bravos" (Brave Bulls) for no reason. There are accounts of them being hitted by Crossbow arrows or stung by the Knights' Lances and not only not causing them to be "Subjugated", but becoming even angrier and making it even harder to get close to them. es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toros_c%C3%A9lebresYou can see lots of cases of bleeding out Lidia Bulls fighting until dying here. Spanish fighting bulls are most likely THE hardest Bovine to subjugate. With insane pain tolerance. If 1-2 Alanos would have been enough to subjugate it then only 1-2 Alanos would have been used in those Bullfights from centuries ago since expectators prefer an epic and even out fight. In reality homever 5-7 Alanos were used. Alano is a very strong dog breed. I favour them over Pitbulls and Dogos. But they have their limits like all animals, closest thing i Was able to find to a single Alano """subjugating""" a fighting bull was one of them solving a dispute between 2 Bulls that were fighting each other by staying in the middle. But that's not """subjugating""" even in the broadest definition, it's simply conflict resolution through a third party. Those wolves attacked that boar in the most cowardly way possible and there were 4 of them, that boar was a bit small too. Those are cows in that tier with the boar. I believe a prime male sus scrofa presents a similar level of challenge to a cow bison, but the moose deserves more credit. I might favor a cow bison over a bull moose tbh (maybe not), but in terms of subjugation difficulty the moose is definitely higher. A bull bison or bull moose or fighting bull... stuff of that nature is harder than a boar sure. But they don't use 5-7. Nobody does. You and I saw a video of 2 Alanos subjugate a fighting bull to which you gave a ridiculous illusional story. I have dug up some clips and put them together for you and nowhere in the bulldog's bull catching past time do I see any more than 3 dogs. streamable.com/jt8svrThe most I have ever seen period is 4. Don't tell me those bulldogs were actually half dead and got gored to death somehow. That was really, really weird and hilarious and ridiculous. Also a spanish fighting bull can fuck 7 Alanos. That doesn't mean 1 good Alano can't do it -  |
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Post by Bolushi on Sept 2, 2023 17:07:48 GMT
"In 1890, the work “Diálogos de Montería” describes one of the most daring and exciting hunting specialties: night wild boar hunting. In this work, the dogs necessary for this purpose are differentiated and preferential prominence is given to the heavy greyhound: “6 dogs are necessary...two masters to discover the hunt; and two middle men that serve as stop reinforcement until the alanos arrive; heavier than any other dog, so due to their nature and their weapons for defense, they prey on the wild boar's ears until the huntsman comes to finish them off with a dagger." Got this from an Alano Español website What are you trying to communicate to me? That 6 Alanos are needed for a boar? (Despite them only describing 2 Alanos as being used, 2 bay dogs and 2 running dogs) |
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