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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Sept 2, 2023 18:58:02 GMT
Here's an example of what I'm talking about:  Anyone else see a ''5'' and ''8'' on the bull? Almost as if it's been tattooed beneath its fur? I think it's the primitive method of tagging cattle. Oh thanks. But, it's quite surprising. Most other tagged cattle I've seen had the tags on their ears, and the number was written on a sort of ''clip.'' So, I was shocked when I saw this; it's not the usual means of tagging cattle. That's what got me surprised. Here's a calf with the typical tagging method:  |
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Post by s on Sept 2, 2023 18:58:21 GMT
99% a joke since Lion can do much more damage and get to the Bull's back in one go but Snow Leopard are indeed very formidable for their size against Bovines. ''...snow leopards are indeed very formidable for their size against cattle.'' That doesn't change the fact that the statement you made was wrong. A snow leopard having a better chance against the most fighting-spirited cattle type with forward-pointing horns than a lion 3-5 times its own size? Nah, where's the logic? ''A smaller cat is less likely to get hit, and more likely to dodge the bull's attacks''? Is that it? That would be laughable. To help you understand just how shocking your statement was to me, I would make the snow leopard take the role of the lion in this case, and another cat take the role of the snow leopard. That would be the equivalent of me saying: ''Large cattle aren't that good at fighting small, but aggressive animals, since they are more agile and can dodge attacks more easily. Despite being much smaller I reckon a serval has a far better chance against a fighting bull than a snow leopard.'' You want to know why? A serval is much smaller, less likely to get hit than the snow leopard. That's just how shocking your statement was, to be honest. No way a snow leopard will ever stand the slimmest chance against this: redirect.viglink.com/?key=71fe2139a887ad501313cd8cce3053c5&subId=7294638&u=https%3A//tienphong.vn/kinh-hoang-le-hoi-dua-bo-tot-o-tay-ban-nha-post705614.tpoI agree actually. At parity perhaps a Snow Leopard is more impressive than a Lion against Bovines, but at average weights? No lol |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Sept 2, 2023 18:59:21 GMT
''...snow leopards are indeed very formidable for their size against cattle.'' That doesn't change the fact that the statement you made was wrong. A snow leopard having a better chance against the most fighting-spirited cattle type with forward-pointing horns than a lion 3-5 times its own size? Nah, where's the logic? ''A smaller cat is less likely to get hit, and more likely to dodge the bull's attacks''? Is that it? That would be laughable. To help you understand just how shocking your statement was to me, I would make the snow leopard take the role of the lion in this case, and another cat take the role of the snow leopard. That would be the equivalent of me saying: ''Large cattle aren't that good at fighting small, but aggressive animals, since they are more agile and can dodge attacks more easily. Despite being much smaller I reckon a serval has a far better chance against a fighting bull than a snow leopard.'' You want to know why? A serval is much smaller, less likely to get hit than the snow leopard. That's just how shocking your statement was, to be honest. No way a snow leopard will ever stand the slimmest chance against this: redirect.viglink.com/?key=71fe2139a887ad501313cd8cce3053c5&subId=7294638&u=https%3A//tienphong.vn/kinh-hoang-le-hoi-dua-bo-tot-o-tay-ban-nha-post705614.tpoI agree actually. At parity perhaps a Snow Leopard is more impressive than a Lion against Bovines, but at average weights? No lol Now you're talking. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 2, 2023 21:29:21 GMT
The numbers on those bulls are "branding", which yes is a practice that has largely been replaced with ear tags in the modern world, but some old schoolers still do branding. In Australia wild scrub cattle are still called "Cleanskins" referring to the fact they aren't branded, and therefore are "fair game" to be hunted. In reference to an earlier weird dispute- The ship has sailed on trying to act like multiple dogs are needed for boar, we've all seen too many single dogs do it. And it doesn't matter if you see 4 or 5 fail, the fact remains 1 can do it on very big very mean boars. In Australia dogs are often sold as money back GUARANTEED to lug any boar "one out", so saying 1 dog can't do it, one dog will be killed, need multiple dogs, etc etc, all factually incorrect and no further discussion is warranted. This is equally true for cattle of all kinds. A seasoned solid 1 out lugging dog (and it can be any breed or mix with bullbreed influence) can subdue any bovine and any suid. Numbers start becoming necessary on animals with multiple weapons which can't be neutralised by a head-hold. So that is why they used to say in medieval times (where they were very very experienced and well versed in the topic) 3 for a bear, and 4 for a lion. But 1 has always been enough for a bull or boar if it is a good enough dog. That doesn't mean a bull or boar can't ever decimate a pack of 6 or 8 or 12 dogs, they can, but only because 1 good dog isn't there. Snow leopards are underrated, I have always maintained that actually, however it is obviously an absurd joke to say they are better at bovines than lions. Lions and tigers are precisely what the cat design looks like when it is adapted for taking bovines. That is what it turns into. A snow leopard may pull off a yak kill here and there, leopards and pumas might take the odd cow, but all of the above are adapted for antelopes, cervids, goats, etc etc in lower weight tiers. 40 up to maybe a few hundred KGs. That is their bread and butter, the taking of adult cattle and adult horses and camels and etc up around 500 - 1000 kgs are anomalous. The taking of adult boars in the 100-150 kgs zone is also fairly anomalous for these cats, but becomes less so for seasoned adult males. Never mind the Eurasian lynx taking the odd hog of unknown calibre. Highly anomalous. This is a cat that takes hares and birds and occassionally deer. Its safe to assume a hog falling to a lynx is not an impressive hog, and the reality of hogs is many are not impressive. But when they are, lynx can forget about it and for the most part leopards, pumas and SLs can too, even jaguars, tigers and lions will struggle. But still very good leopards and pumas and jaguars lions and tigers CAN take adult hogs, and lions and tigers can take bull bovines. Jaguars can too but with lower success. Wolves use long-term wiley strategies to take adult bovines and boars, usually hand-picked carefully due to compromised conditioning, a strategy which really bypasses the need for being physically capable to subdue them under normal conditions. Sometimes it may not be easy to see what the problem is, but the wolves see, and thats what counts. Gripping dogs are the best at subduing the fittest bovines and bulls, better than all of the above due to their specialised technique and adaptations, but are poorly equipped to kill them. That is the concise summary of everything and now the whole board is locked -  JK |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2023 21:33:41 GMT
The is the concise summary of everything and now the whole board is locked - YeeaAAAAAAA- aww. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2023 21:57:14 GMT
The is the concise summary of everything and now the whole board is locked - YeeaAAAAAAA- aww. Just joking.  |
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Post by s on Sept 2, 2023 22:19:06 GMT
Snow leopards are underrated, I have always maintained that actually, however it is obviously an absurd joke to say they are better at bovines than lions. Lions and tigers are precisely what the cat design looks like when it is adapted for taking bovines. That is what it turns into. A snow leopard may pull off a yak kill here and there, leopards and pumas might take the odd cow, but all of the above are adapted for antelopes, cervids, goats, etc etc in lower weight tiers. 40 up to maybe a few hundred KGs. That is their bread and butter, the taking of adult cattle and adult horses and camels and etc up around 500 - 1000 kgs are anomalous. The taking of adult boars in the 100-150 kgs zone is also fairly anomalous for these cats, but becomes less so for seasoned adult males. I specified the "better than Lions" part was a joke. |
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Post by s on Sept 2, 2023 22:25:02 GMT
"In 1890, the work “Diálogos de Montería” describes one of the most daring and exciting hunting specialties: night wild boar hunting. In this work, the dogs necessary for this purpose are differentiated and preferential prominence is given to the heavy greyhound: “6 dogs are necessary...two masters to discover the hunt; and two middle dogs that serve as stop reinforcement until the alanos arrive; heavier than any other dog, so due to their nature and their weapons for defense, they prey on the wild boar's ears until the huntsman comes to finish them off with a dagger." Got this from an Alano Español website What are you trying to communicate to me? That 6 Alanos are needed for a boar? (Despite them only describing 2 Alanos as being used, 2 bay dogs and 2 running dogs) No, keep in mind it's night time boar hunting so significantly more challenging than day time, im aware only 2 of the 6 dogs were Alanos. If we were using only Alanos, 2-3 required for daytime seems like a realistic range. Since that's the Dogos usually used for Boar hunting. Assuming we are using a normal 75-100kg Boar, the hypothethical Alanos are working but not elite level. |
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Post by s on Sept 2, 2023 22:30:13 GMT
In reference to an earlier weird dispute- The ship has sailed on trying to act like multiple dogs are needed for boar, we've all seen too many single dogs do it. And it doesn't matter if you see 4 or 5 fail, the fact remains 1 can do it on very big very mean boars. In Australia dogs are often sold as money back GUARANTEED to lug any boar "one out", so saying 1 dog can't do it, one dog will be killed, need multiple dogs, etc etc, all factually incorrect and no further discussion is warranted. Strawman. I claimed that usually 2-3 decent dogs are needed. But that a single really elite dog can do it as well. |
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Post by s on Sept 2, 2023 22:35:21 GMT
Gripping dogs are the best at subduing the fittest bovines and bulls, better than all of the above due to their specialised technique and adaptations, but are poorly equipped to kill them. "Subjugation" means quite little in the Wild. If Predators were able to subjugate their prey but not able to kill or seriously wound them they wouldn't be Predators. Instead of a major threat to their prey they would just be an annoyance that once in a while comes, makes you feel bad for a bit and leaves. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 2, 2023 23:15:45 GMT
Gripping dogs are the best at subduing the fittest bovines and bulls, better than all of the above due to their specialised technique and adaptations, but are poorly equipped to kill them. "Subjugation" means quite little in the Wild. If Predators were able to subjugate their prey but not able to kill or seriously wound them they wouldn't be Predators. Instead of a major threat to their prey they would just be an annoyance that once in a while comes, makes you feel bad for a bit and leaves. Yes, just being able to subdue something without being able to kill it would be a complete waste of precious energy for a wild predator, and that is WHY they are inferior to gripping dogs at subjugating. That's not an argument against the fact, it is explanation of how that fact came to be. Of the different evolutionary demands that lead to different outcomes. A wild predator still needs to be able to subdue something before they can kill it, it is a very important ability for them to have, there is simply no point in their subjugation abilities out-stripping their killing capacity, and so they don't, and that is why gripping dogs are better subjugators than wild predators. Their subjugation ability, as a specialisation without limitations or contrary demands, was able to elevate extremely high. This becomes interesting in hypothetical dog vs wild predator fights, because if the dog has superior subjugation abilities it will dominate the fight. A fight is a struggle to see who subdues who before any killing takes place, and in that struggle gripping dogs do very well due to their limitless subjugation ability. |
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Post by s on Sept 2, 2023 23:21:04 GMT
"Subjugation" means quite little in the Wild. If Predators were able to subjugate their prey but not able to kill or seriously wound them they wouldn't be Predators. Instead of a major threat to their prey they would just be an annoyance that once in a while comes, makes you feel bad for a bit and leaves. Yes, just being able to subdue something without being able to kill it would be a complete waste of precious energy for a wild predator, and that is WHY they are inferior to gripping dogs at subjugating. That's not an argument against the fact, it is explanation of how that fact came to be. Of the different evolutionary demands that lead to different outcomes. I concede this is true. Fighting dogs are probably the animal with the strongest ability at parity to subjugate a Bovine/Ungulate without actually seriously wounding it by exhausting it and poking ears/nose untiI it says "fine, this is not worth the effort" and ends the fight, wasn't denying that, i was simply stating that in the Wild actual killing ability is much much important than subjugating I guess bovines can feel what is an actual substantial danger to their lifes and what isn't, if attacked by a Lion they would be far more motivated to fight because they know their Life is at stake, this doesn't happen with Dogs because i suppose Bovines sense they don't have enough weaponry to actually kill them |
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Post by Bolushi on Sept 2, 2023 23:24:10 GMT
Yes, just being able to subdue something without being able to kill it would be a complete waste of precious energy for a wild predator, and that is WHY they are inferior to gripping dogs at subjugating. That's not an argument against the fact, it is explanation of how that fact came to be. Of the different evolutionary demands that lead to different outcomes. I concede this is true. Fighting dogs are probably the animal with the strongest ability at parity to subjugate a Bovine/Ungulate without actually seriously wounding it by exhausting it and poking ears/nose untiI it says "fine, this is not worth the effort" and stops attacking, wasn't denying that, i was simply stating that in the Wild actual killing ability is much much important than subjugating Take a 100lb snow leopard, an expert at killing, and see how it does against a pissed off Iberian cow. All that killing ability is irrelevant, cannot subjugate the cow and will be trampled to death. Take a 100lb Alano and it will subjugate that cow no problem and, while it may take an hour or multiple hours, it will kill that cow if left to its own devices. Subjugation ability is more important than killing ability at the end of the day. |
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Post by s on Sept 2, 2023 23:26:43 GMT
I concede this is true. Fighting dogs are probably the animal with the strongest ability at parity to subjugate a Bovine/Ungulate without actually seriously wounding it by exhausting it and poking ears/nose untiI it says "fine, this is not worth the effort" and stops attacking, wasn't denying that, i was simply stating that in the Wild actual killing ability is much much important than subjugating Take a 100lb snow leopard, an expert at killing, and see how it does against a pissed off Iberian cow. All that killing ability is irrelevant, cannot subjugate the cow and will be trampled to death. Take a 100lb Alano and it will subjugate that cow no problem and, while it may take an hour or multiple hours, it will kill that cow if left to its own devices. Subjugation ability is more important than killing ability at the end of the day. Iberian cow? I assume you mean "The cows of Fighting Bulls" Uhhh they do exist but aren't used in fighting obviously, just for breeding more bulls, your average cattle cow but more agressive basically. |
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Post by s on Sept 2, 2023 23:28:44 GMT
Also from historical accounts i readed the minimum number of Alanos needed to subdue a Fighting Bull in a reasonable amount of time is two, if only one is used Bull can still use half his body to defend himself. According to contemporaries like Lope de Vega
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