Comparing Bovines

[Hardcastle]

kevin

Thought this might interest you somewhat, I did this a while ago-

Jan 7, 2023 4:17:44 GMT Hardcastle said:

This would be my take on that question-

Bison
Offense (against predators) - 6
Offense (against bovines) - 10
Durability (against predators) - 8
Durability (against bovines) - 10
Strength - 9
Speed - 9
Agility - 8
Aggression - 7
AVG Overall - 8.375

Gaur
Offense (against predators) - 6
Offense (against bovines) - 6
Durability (against predators) - 10
Durability (against bovines) - 6
Strength - 9
Speed - 6
Agility - 6
Aggression - 6
AVG Overall - 6.875

Cape Buffalo
Offense (against predators) - 9
Offense (against bovines) - 8
Durability (against predators) - 9
Durability (against bovines) - 8
Strength - 9
Speed - 8
Agility - 7
Aggression - 9
AVG Overall - 8.375

Iberian Cattle
Offense (against predators) - 10
Offense (against bovines) - 8
Durability (against predators) - 7
Durability (against bovines) - 7
Strength - 7
Speed - 9
Agility - 9
Aggression - 10
AVG Overall - 8.375

In response to a question in this thread-
link

Now, I can already see stuff I know you will disagree with, and actually due to some of your arguments I think I now also disagree with myself... I might re-do my own, but in the meantime maybe you would be interested in giving your own take in comparing the outlined categories. (you don't have to do the "average" maths, since it is quite tedious).

[kevin]

Jul 5, 2023 3:15:27 GMT Hardcastle said:

kevin

Thought this might interest you somewhat, I did this a while ago-

Jan 7, 2023 4:17:44 GMT Hardcastle said:

This would be my take on that question-

Bison
Offense (against predators) - 6
Offense (against bovines) - 10
Durability (against predators) - 8
Durability (against bovines) - 10
Strength - 9
Speed - 9
Agility - 8
Aggression - 7
AVG Overall - 8.375

Gaur
Offense (against predators) - 6
Offense (against bovines) - 6
Durability (against predators) - 10
Durability (against bovines) - 6
Strength - 9
Speed - 6
Agility - 6
Aggression - 6
AVG Overall - 6.875

Cape Buffalo
Offense (against predators) - 9
Offense (against bovines) - 8
Durability (against predators) - 9
Durability (against bovines) - 8
Strength - 9
Speed - 8
Agility - 7
Aggression - 9
AVG Overall - 8.375

Iberian Cattle
Offense (against predators) - 10
Offense (against bovines) - 8
Durability (against predators) - 7
Durability (against bovines) - 7
Strength - 7
Speed - 9
Agility - 9
Aggression - 10
AVG Overall - 8.375

In response to a question in this thread-
link

Now, I can already see stuff I know you will disagree with, and actually due to some of your arguments I think I now also disagree with myself... I might re-do my own, but in the meantime maybe you would be interested in giving your own take in comparing the outlined categories. (you don't have to do the "average" maths, since it is quite tedious).

Interesting comparison but I do think that bison should outscore the others when it comes to aggression and offence against predators. After all, there are instances where single lions attacked cape buffalo bulls and even successfully hunted them down. In complete contrast, a grizzly would basically never approach a full grown bison bull and would simply choose the cows, yearlings and young adults.

[Hardcastle]

Jul 5, 2023 9:14:52 GMT kevin said:

Jul 5, 2023 3:15:27 GMT Hardcastle said:

kevin

Thought this might interest you somewhat, I did this a while ago-

In response to a question in this thread-
link

Now, I can already see stuff I know you will disagree with, and actually due to some of your arguments I think I now also disagree with myself... I might re-do my own, but in the meantime maybe you would be interested in giving your own take in comparing the outlined categories. (you don't have to do the "average" maths, since it is quite tedious).

Interesting comparison but I do think that bison should outscore the others when it comes to aggression and offence against predators. After all, there are instances where single lions attacked cape buffalo bulls and even successfully hunted them down. In complete contrast, a grizzly would basically never approach a full grown bison bull and would simply choose the cows, yearlings and young adults.

I don't think a bear has the predatory skills of a lion. They are actually pretty terrible. They rarely succeed in killing domestic heresford cattle.

[kevin]

Jul 5, 2023 9:19:26 GMT Hardcastle said:

Jul 5, 2023 9:14:52 GMT kevin said:

Interesting comparison but I do think that bison should outscore the others when it comes to aggression and offence against predators. After all, there are instances where single lions attacked cape buffalo bulls and even successfully hunted them down. In complete contrast, a grizzly would basically never approach a full grown bison bull and would simply choose the cows, yearlings and young adults.

I don't think a bear has the predatory skills of a lion. They are actually pretty terrible. They rarely succeed in killing domestic heresford cattle.

Yes it's true they don't have the skills but they would still latch onto prey until the latter collapses even if it takes several minutes. They don't try that on full grown bison bulls though.

[Hardcastle]

It is possible I am under-estimating the anti-predator offense of Bison. It has just never struck me as their strong point. Anti-predator DEFENSE, like just being too big and too strong to bring down, yes. But their capacity to kill predators doesn't seem SO strong, I think maybe partially due to their specialisation for ramming each other.

Coastal brown bears try to attack free-range semi-wild cattle often in Alaska, even not large female cattle, and leave them with scrapes all over their back, but still fine. Graziers sometimes leave their cattle out miles away from their homestead for months at a time, with the biggest coastal browns on the planet literally walking among them eating grass, and take zero losses. Just like I said some back scrapes on the females. In calving season they get nervous. So the fact bison rarely suffer brown bear attack just doesn't really blow my hair back. It's a shame we don't get to really test them and observe them against their traditional foes like Smilodon Fatalis and Panthera Atrox and packs of Aenocyon. That would be the test for me. I do believe tigers and lions probably would prey on them, but with caution and careful selective aggression, like they gear towards buffalo and gaur.

[kevin]

Jul 5, 2023 9:44:33 GMT Hardcastle said:

It is possible I am under-estimating the anti-predator offense of Bison. It has just never struck me as their strong point. Anti-predator DEFENSE, like just being too big and too strong to bring down, yes. But their capacity to kill predators doesn't seem SO strong, I think maybe partially due to their specialisation for ramming each other.

Coastal brown bears try to attack free-range semi-wild cattle often in Alaska, even not large female cattle, and leave them with scrapes all over their back, but still fine. Graziers sometimes leave their cattle out miles away from their homestead for months at a time, with the biggest coastal browns on the planet literally walking among them eating grass, and take zero losses. Just like I said some back scrapes on the females. In calving season they get nervous. So the fact bison rarely suffer brown bear attack just doesn't really blow my hair back. It's a shame we don't get to really test them and observe them against their traditional foes like Smilodon Fatalis and Panthera Atrox and packs of Aenocyon. That would be the test for me. I do believe tigers and lions probably would prey on them, but with caution and careful selective aggression, like they gear towards buffalo and gaur.

I think that fatalis does have good chances at ambushing bison since tigers do hunt gaur bulls. Sure, bison are way tougher than gaur so we'd basically need a way tougher cat, right ? You know, fatalis was so strong it would actually make a tiger look like an oversized striped cheetah lol. So yeah, if the ambush goes as planned, fatalis may be successful. Dunno about American Lions, they too were fairly robust compared to modern tigers,had wider paws and were significantly bigger so maybe they could have some chance at hunting Bison Bulls.

[Hardcastle]

That is a fair point, bigger predators during the evolutionary "setting" of their respective phenotypes could factor in to a comparison between bovines and their capacity to ward off predators. Would have to look into the Pleistocene a little more deeply. Off the top of my head I'm thinking of the Ngangdong tiger, Panthera Tigris Soloensis-

Which Gaur and Asiatic Water Buffalo evolved to contend with. 

[kevin]

Reasons As To Why A Wild Yak (Bos Mutus) Would Defeat An Indian Gaur (Bos Gaurus) In A Fight !

Two of the world's Largest Members Of The Bovidae Family are facing off against each other in a fight ? Which would prevail ? There are some reasons as to why the Wild Yak would be the victor in this matchup. According to this study , this Beast is considered to be surpassed only by the Indian Rhino and Asian Elephant in terms of body mass :

academic.oup.com/mspecies/article/doi/10.1644/836.1/2600878
This suggests that the Wild Yak should be bigger than the Gaur. The above study mentions some weight estimates :

By combining these estimates, we get an average weight of a ton ! It could be an exaggeration so let's highball a Gaur's weight and give it a figure of 900 kg :

www.researchgate.net/publication/327248826_Bos_frontalis_and_Bos_gaurus_Artiodactyla_Bovidae?enrichId=rgreq-7cc9c4953666f99ac8440dfe351cb71f-XXX&enrichSource=Y292ZXJQYWdlOzMyNzI0ODgyNjtBUzo2NjQyNDUwMjA2NjM4MTJAMTUzNTM3OTc2Mjk3MA%3D%3D&el=1_x_2&_esc=publicationCoverPdf
The Wild Yak is still heavier. Let's now have a look at this comparison Between The Yak (Right) and Gaur (Left) :

As seen ,both Animals seem evenly matched in terms of head body length and since we've already established that a Yak Bull would be heavier then this suggests that the Yak has a proportionally stronger and bulkier body than Bos Gaurus even though the latter seems somewhat visually more muscular. Another reason would be the Yak's broader skull which is evident since even the skull of the Domestic Variation is proportionally wider :

press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691167176/bovids-of-the-world
Perhaps the Greatest Disadvantage that a Gaur has would be its somewhat more docile nature as there have been no recorded instances of Gaurs fighting seriously :

the Gaur is certainly nowhere near as Combative as the Wild Yak. In fact , the Latter is such an Aggressive Fighting Beast to the point where Researchers Drew similarities between them And Bison. As a matter of fact, both the Bison and the Wild Yak have been recorded fighting Potential Rivals on multiple occasions and these conflicts often led to serious injuries :


www.researchgate.net/publication/263473108_Sexualaggressive_behavior_of_wild_yak_Bos_mutus_Prejevalsky_1883_during_the_rut_Influence_of_female_choice
This is further supported by video evidence showing just how Fierce and Terrifying Wild Yaks are when fighting :





Gaurs on the other hand wouldn't fight with such brutality :



Overall, it seems that the Wild Yak is pretty much a Heavier,Stronger,More Aggressive Gaur With A More Robust Skull and More Combative Abilities. Bos Mutus would defeat Bos Gaurus thanks to all these attributes !


P.S : credit to the undertaker45 Aka Elvis Presley for the Wild Yak-Indian Gaur side by side comparison !

[Hardcastle]

Personally I'm a little dubious that the wild yak is larger than the gaur. That statement that they are "the 3rd largest mammal in Asia" almost seems like an oversight, where that particular source is possibly even forgetting about the existence of the gaur.

Most sources seem to talk about a max size for the gaur being 1500 kg or 3300 lbs. I assume you don't believe that is accurate?

[kevin]

Jul 6, 2023 9:20:08 GMT Hardcastle said:

Personally I'm a little dubious that the wild yak is larger than the gaur. That statement that they are "the 3rd largest mammal in Asia" almost seems like an oversight, where that particular source is possibly even forgetting about the existence of the gaur.

Most sources seem to talk about a max size for the gaur being 1500 kg or 3300 lbs. I assume you don't believe that is accurate?

Actually no, the source does know about the existence of gaur :


I don't believe that the 3300 lbs is accurate because there's no way to prove they reached such weight. They certainly wouldn't since not even Bison which are built stronger than equally sized gaur could reach such weight. Max size for Bison is 2800 lbs. The biggest Indian Gaur recorded weighed 1106 kg as proven by guate. I'd say that wild yaks being heavier than gaur is accurate because as shown in Undertaker's comparison, wild yaks and gaur are relative to each other in body length and shoulder height. Yaks pretty much fight like Bison do so they need to be bulky enough to withstand brutal attacks. And a bovine that regularly fights viciously by charging is bulkier than another bovine of similar body dimensions that doesn't charge or fight seriously. That's why it's safe to argue that Wild Yaks are on average bulkier than gaur. A greater bulk would mostly imply a greater weight increase.

[Hardcastle]

Jul 6, 2023 10:37:49 GMT kevin said:

Jul 6, 2023 9:20:08 GMT Hardcastle said:

Personally I'm a little dubious that the wild yak is larger than the gaur. That statement that they are "the 3rd largest mammal in Asia" almost seems like an oversight, where that particular source is possibly even forgetting about the existence of the gaur.

Most sources seem to talk about a max size for the gaur being 1500 kg or 3300 lbs. I assume you don't believe that is accurate?

Actually no, the source does know about the existence of gaur :


I don't believe that the 3300 lbs is accurate because there's no way to prove they reached such weight. They certainly wouldn't since not even Bison which are built stronger than equally sized gaur could reach such weight. Max size for Bison is 2800 lbs. The biggest Indian Gaur recorded weighed 1106 kg as proven by guate. I'd say that wild yaks being heavier than gaur is accurate because as shown in Undertaker's comparison, wild yaks and gaur are relative to each other in body length and shoulder height. Yaks pretty much fight like Bison do so they need to be bulky enough to withstand brutal attacks. And a bovine that regularly fights viciously by charging is bulkier than another bovine of similar body dimensions that doesn't charge or fight seriously. That's why it's safe to argue that Wild Yaks are on average bulkier than gaur. A greater bulk would mostly imply a greater weight increase.

As I look around every source seems to say the gaur is taller, 2.2 metres for the guar vs 2 metres for the yak seems to be the general "common knowledge:. I know from experience the "common knowledge" sizes are often wrong, but I'm just struggling to find alternative information. Times like this I wish "Cojimar" was still around, he was the king of knowing the true max sizes of everything.

I gotta say, if they were the same size I still get the impression the Gaur would weigh more. It's just insanely bulky.




I gotta say it also looks like a taller animal to my eye, but definitely a bulkier animal. No? I don't see how yaks are really built like bison at all, and I'm not convinced a bison is bulkier than a gaur either.

Keep in mind I don't like gaur at all. I just think the one thing they genuinely DO have is a stupid amount of size. Almost too much for me to like them, they seem like cumbersome athletes which I don't like.

[Deleted]

Didn't 13 males average 1,500kg in a survey in India?

[Hardcastle]

Jul 6, 2023 12:06:29 GMT @ling said:

Didn't 13 males average 1,500kg in a survey in India?

I don't know, but it would be a good thing to find.

Intuitively I feel like they are the biggest wild bovine, and rivalled only by rare domestic breeds of cattle like the Chianina and Charolais which can get up around 1600 kgs. Gaurs look huge to me, and most of the info suggests they are. Such info is often wrong with animals, but with gaur I tend to believe it because they just look massive.

[Deleted]

Jul 6, 2023 12:14:39 GMT Hardcastle said:

Jul 6, 2023 12:06:29 GMT @ling said:

Didn't 13 males average 1,500kg in a survey in India?

I don't know, but it would be a good thing to find.

Intuitively I feel like they are the biggest wild bovine, and rivalled only by rare domestic breeds of cattle like the Chianina and Charolais which can get up around 1600 kgs. Gaurs look huge to me, and most of the info suggests they are. Such info is often wrong with gaur I tend to believe it because they just look massive.

I heavily doubt that the *largest* individual was only around 1100kg.

[Deleted]

Based on this size comparison (presumably made by theundertaker45), I honestly would've said that the Wild Yak is one of the strongest bovids...