Comparing Bovines

[Deleted]

There are countless videos on YouTube of Wild Yaks bossing domestic bull Cattle.

[Hardcastle]

Jul 6, 2023 16:50:26 GMT @ling said:

There are countless videos on YouTube of Wild Yaks bossing domestic bull Cattle.

Can you post them? Even this undersized bull did well against a bigger yak-


This "bull"(i'm not even convinced it's a bull, can't see its nuts) pwns a yak

[Hardcastle]

Another at least holding its own


Note these are ALL extremely unimpressive bulls. A rodeo bull or scrub bull or iberian or etc etc are just so much more animal than these.

[Hardcastle]

outcome of first fight

[Deleted]

I'm busy I'll get back to you later.

[kevin]

Jul 6, 2023 16:33:04 GMT Hardcastle said:

I just don't know where you are getting your numbers from? You may have a good source. I rarely say this; but can you post that source?

The official spiel is-

On average, adult Cape buffalo bulls typically weigh between 500 to 900 kilograms (1,100 to 2,000 pounds). However, some exceptionally large individuals have been recorded to weigh over 1,000 kilograms (2,200 pounds).

Official is often wrong, but where are you getting the info which shows it to be wrong?

Like I said, my understanding is Cape Buffalo, Asiatic Buffalo and Bison all range around 1800 and 2200 lbs. Then domestic asiatic buffalo actually range up to 2600 lbs, and Gaur range up to 3000+ lbs. That is what all the basic layman sources say, I am ready and willing to accept they are wrong, but based on what?

Weight data based on actual weight samples :

Gaur :

Cape Buffalo :
Note : All specimens >=4 years old were included.

1. Vital statistics of 100 Cape Buffaloes collected from Crocodile Ridge, Kruger National Park ; 611.83 kg for 35 bulls and 519.99 kg for 38 cows.
2. Sachs(1967) ; Specimens from Serengeti N.P. , Tanzania ; 750.8 kg for 8 bulls and 446.6 kg for 2 cows.
3. Taylor(1985) ; Specimens from Matusadona N.P. , Zimbabwe ; 574 kg for 4 bulls and 433 kg for 11 cows.
4. Wilson(1968) ; Specimens from Eastern Zambia ; 589.4 kg for 42 bulls and 430.8 kg for 31 cows.
5. Smither’s Mammals of Southern Africa: A Field Guide ; Heaviest bull from Kruger N.P. , South Africa ; 802 kg.
6. Data from Meinertzhagen ; Specimens from Kenya ; 768 kg for 2 bulls.

Overall average weight of 92 bulls is ~618 kg.(1362 lbs)
Overall average weight of 82 cows is ~473 kg.(1043 lbs)

Credits-Khan85,GuateGojira.
Bison :



That is all we have based on actual samples. Data for water buffaloes or wild yak don't exist yet unfortunately.

[kevin]

Just Took a screenshot of a wild yak that looks fairly bulky :

What do you guys think ?

[Hardcastle]

Jul 6, 2023 20:39:41 GMT kevin said:

Jul 6, 2023 16:33:04 GMT Hardcastle said:

I just don't know where you are getting your numbers from? You may have a good source. I rarely say this; but can you post that source?

The official spiel is-

Official is often wrong, but where are you getting the info which shows it to be wrong?

Like I said, my understanding is Cape Buffalo, Asiatic Buffalo and Bison all range around 1800 and 2200 lbs. Then domestic asiatic buffalo actually range up to 2600 lbs, and Gaur range up to 3000+ lbs. That is what all the basic layman sources say, I am ready and willing to accept they are wrong, but based on what?

Weight data based on actual weight samples :

Gaur :

Cape Buffalo :
Note : All specimens >=4 years old were included.

1. Vital statistics of 100 Cape Buffaloes collected from Crocodile Ridge, Kruger National Park ; 611.83 kg for 35 bulls and 519.99 kg for 38 cows.
2. Sachs(1967) ; Specimens from Serengeti N.P. , Tanzania ; 750.8 kg for 8 bulls and 446.6 kg for 2 cows.
3. Taylor(1985) ; Specimens from Matusadona N.P. , Zimbabwe ; 574 kg for 4 bulls and 433 kg for 11 cows.
4. Wilson(1968) ; Specimens from Eastern Zambia ; 589.4 kg for 42 bulls and 430.8 kg for 31 cows.
5. Smither’s Mammals of Southern Africa: A Field Guide ; Heaviest bull from Kruger N.P. , South Africa ; 802 kg.
6. Data from Meinertzhagen ; Specimens from Kenya ; 768 kg for 2 bulls.

Overall average weight of 92 bulls is ~618 kg.(1362 lbs)
Overall average weight of 82 cows is ~473 kg.(1043 lbs)

Credits-Khan85,GuateGojira.
Bison :



That is all we have based on actual samples. Data for water buffaloes or wild yak don't exist yet unfortunately.

Ok now we are getting somewhere and you might be turning me... nice finds.

Still limited data unfortunately.
I'd be more interested in looking at the maxes as being more representative of what they should be. All the more because it is limited. With a HUGE data set the maxes could be total freaks, but with this limited number I'd look towards the max specimens as being a pretty good guide for a fully mature healthy "good" male. "Average" is to me kind of a flawed deceptive thing to look at. I'd say even the "max" from a limited data set is probably not the actual max by any means, and just a nice guide to normal top weight.

So, from that data-

Wood Bison- 1179 kg/ 2600 lbs
Gaur- 1106 kg / 2438 lbs
Plains Bison- 940 kg/ 2072
Cape Buffalo- 802 kg/ 1763 lbs


My general take away with this is mostly that the Wood bison has elevated above my former perception, and is definitely one of the "big boys" (I think I was focussed on plains bison and not really knowing about Wood bison). Meanwhile the gaur has possibly been "humbled" somewhat, but I'd hesitate to commit to that too fully.

I'd still lean towards saying Wood Bison and Gaur and probably about the same size and the two largest wild bovines.
If we had a larger data-set I suspect this reality would bear out. The consistent "rumours" from various independent sources talking about 3000 lbs Gaur make me think them and wood bison probably can get up around that territory occassionally, but normally are more like 2500 lbs.

The wild Asiatic Water Buffalo I suspect is 3rd. There was at least 1 study which only included 3 individuals where they averaged 900 kgs or 1985 lbs. This seems to align fairly well with seemingly every source repeating a 700-1200 kg range. The wilk yak also gets the 1200 kg figure thrown around, it might be true, but it's lower range being lower makes me want to put it just behind the water buffalo.

So-
1. Wood Bison
2. Gaur
3. Water Buffalo
4. Wild Yak
5. Plains Bison
6. Cape Buffalo

Is probably how I would rank the top 6 wild bovines in size, after the new info.

[Deleted]

Jul 7, 2023 10:57:04 GMT Hardcastle said:

Jul 6, 2023 20:39:41 GMT kevin said:

Weight data based on actual weight samples :

Gaur :

Cape Buffalo :
Note : All specimens >=4 years old were included.

1. Vital statistics of 100 Cape Buffaloes collected from Crocodile Ridge, Kruger National Park ; 611.83 kg for 35 bulls and 519.99 kg for 38 cows.
2. Sachs(1967) ; Specimens from Serengeti N.P. , Tanzania ; 750.8 kg for 8 bulls and 446.6 kg for 2 cows.
3. Taylor(1985) ; Specimens from Matusadona N.P. , Zimbabwe ; 574 kg for 4 bulls and 433 kg for 11 cows.
4. Wilson(1968) ; Specimens from Eastern Zambia ; 589.4 kg for 42 bulls and 430.8 kg for 31 cows.
5. Smither’s Mammals of Southern Africa: A Field Guide ; Heaviest bull from Kruger N.P. , South Africa ; 802 kg.
6. Data from Meinertzhagen ; Specimens from Kenya ; 768 kg for 2 bulls.

Overall average weight of 92 bulls is ~618 kg.(1362 lbs)
Overall average weight of 82 cows is ~473 kg.(1043 lbs)

Credits-Khan85,GuateGojira.
Bison :



That is all we have based on actual samples. Data for water buffaloes or wild yak don't exist yet unfortunately.

Ok now we are getting somewhere and you might be turning me... nice finds.

Still limited data unfortunately.
I'd be more interested in looking at the maxes as being more representative of what they should be. All the more because it is limited. With a HUGE data set the maxes could be total freaks, but with this limited number I'd look towards the max specimens as being a pretty good guide for a fully mature healthy "good" male. "Average" is to me kind of a flawed deceptive thing to look at. I'd say even the "max" from a limited data set is probably not the actual max by any means, and just a nice guide to normal top weight.

So, from that data-

Wood Bison- 1179 kg/ 2600 lbs
Gaur- 1106 kg / 2438 lbs
Plains Bison- 940 kg/ 2072
Cape Buffalo- 802 kg/ 1763 lbs


My general take away with this is mostly that the Wood bison has elevated above my former perception, and is definitely one of the "big boys" (I think I was focussed on plains bison and not really knowing about Wood bison). Meanwhile the gaur has possibly been "humbled" somewhat, but I'd hesitate to commit to that too fully.

I'd still lean towards saying Wood Bison and Gaur and probably about the same size and the two largest wild bovines.
If we had a larger data-set I suspect this reality would bear out. The consistent "rumours" from various independent sources talking about 3000 lbs Gaur make me think them and wood bison probably can get up around that territory occassionally, but normally are more like 2500 lbs.

The wild Asiatic Water Buffalo I suspect is 3rd. There was at least 1 study which only included 3 individuals where they averaged 900 kgs or 1985 lbs. This seems to align fairly well with seemingly every source repeating a 700-1200 kg range. The wilk yak also gets the 1200 kg figure thrown around, it might be true, but it's lower range being lower makes me want to put it just behind the water buffalo.

So-
1. Wood Bison
2. Gaur
3. Water Buffalo
4. Wild Yak
5. Plains Bison
6. Cape Buffalo

Is probably how I would rank the top 6 wild bovines in size, after the new info.

How would you rank them in terms of how much you like them?

Here's my list:

1. Cape buffalo
2. Wild Yak
3. Plains bison
4. Wood bison
5. Water buffalo
6. Gaur

[Hardcastle]

Jul 7, 2023 11:21:42 GMT @ling said:

Jul 7, 2023 10:57:04 GMT Hardcastle said:

Ok now we are getting somewhere and you might be turning me... nice finds.

Still limited data unfortunately.
I'd be more interested in looking at the maxes as being more representative of what they should be. All the more because it is limited. With a HUGE data set the maxes could be total freaks, but with this limited number I'd look towards the max specimens as being a pretty good guide for a fully mature healthy "good" male. "Average" is to me kind of a flawed deceptive thing to look at. I'd say even the "max" from a limited data set is probably not the actual max by any means, and just a nice guide to normal top weight.

So, from that data-

Wood Bison- 1179 kg/ 2600 lbs
Gaur- 1106 kg / 2438 lbs
Plains Bison- 940 kg/ 2072
Cape Buffalo- 802 kg/ 1763 lbs


My general take away with this is mostly that the Wood bison has elevated above my former perception, and is definitely one of the "big boys" (I think I was focussed on plains bison and not really knowing about Wood bison). Meanwhile the gaur has possibly been "humbled" somewhat, but I'd hesitate to commit to that too fully.

I'd still lean towards saying Wood Bison and Gaur and probably about the same size and the two largest wild bovines.
If we had a larger data-set I suspect this reality would bear out. The consistent "rumours" from various independent sources talking about 3000 lbs Gaur make me think them and wood bison probably can get up around that territory occassionally, but normally are more like 2500 lbs.

The wild Asiatic Water Buffalo I suspect is 3rd. There was at least 1 study which only included 3 individuals where they averaged 900 kgs or 1985 lbs. This seems to align fairly well with seemingly every source repeating a 700-1200 kg range. The wilk yak also gets the 1200 kg figure thrown around, it might be true, but it's lower range being lower makes me want to put it just behind the water buffalo.

So-
1. Wood Bison
2. Gaur
3. Water Buffalo
4. Wild Yak
5. Plains Bison
6. Cape Buffalo

Is probably how I would rank the top 6 wild bovines in size, after the new info.

How would you rank them in terms of how much you like them?

Here's my list:

1. Cape buffalo
2. Wild Yak
3. Plains bison
4. Wood bison
5. Water buffalo
6. Gaur

I guess maybe-

1. Water Buffalo
2. Cape Buffalo
3. Plains Bison
4. Wood Bison
5. Gaur
6. Wild yak

Top 4 is tough, I like all of them very close and wouldn't mind scrambling them any which way.

I don't care for Gaur or Wild Yak for some reason.

[kevin]

Jul 7, 2023 10:57:04 GMT Hardcastle said:

Jul 6, 2023 20:39:41 GMT kevin said:

Weight data based on actual weight samples :

Gaur :

Cape Buffalo :
Note : All specimens >=4 years old were included.

1. Vital statistics of 100 Cape Buffaloes collected from Crocodile Ridge, Kruger National Park ; 611.83 kg for 35 bulls and 519.99 kg for 38 cows.
2. Sachs(1967) ; Specimens from Serengeti N.P. , Tanzania ; 750.8 kg for 8 bulls and 446.6 kg for 2 cows.
3. Taylor(1985) ; Specimens from Matusadona N.P. , Zimbabwe ; 574 kg for 4 bulls and 433 kg for 11 cows.
4. Wilson(1968) ; Specimens from Eastern Zambia ; 589.4 kg for 42 bulls and 430.8 kg for 31 cows.
5. Smither’s Mammals of Southern Africa: A Field Guide ; Heaviest bull from Kruger N.P. , South Africa ; 802 kg.
6. Data from Meinertzhagen ; Specimens from Kenya ; 768 kg for 2 bulls.

Overall average weight of 92 bulls is ~618 kg.(1362 lbs)
Overall average weight of 82 cows is ~473 kg.(1043 lbs)

Credits-Khan85,GuateGojira.
Bison :



That is all we have based on actual samples. Data for water buffaloes or wild yak don't exist yet unfortunately.

Ok now we are getting somewhere and you might be turning me... nice finds.

Still limited data unfortunately.
I'd be more interested in looking at the maxes as being more representative of what they should be. All the more because it is limited. With a HUGE data set the maxes could be total freaks, but with this limited number I'd look towards the max specimens as being a pretty good guide for a fully mature healthy "good" male. "Average" is to me kind of a flawed deceptive thing to look at. I'd say even the "max" from a limited data set is probably not the actual max by any means, and just a nice guide to normal top weight.

So, from that data-

Wood Bison- 1179 kg/ 2600 lbs
Gaur- 1106 kg / 2438 lbs
Plains Bison- 940 kg/ 2072
Cape Buffalo- 802 kg/ 1763 lbs


My general take away with this is mostly that the Wood bison has elevated above my former perception, and is definitely one of the "big boys" (I think I was focussed on plains bison and not really knowing about Wood bison). Meanwhile the gaur has possibly been "humbled" somewhat, but I'd hesitate to commit to that too fully.

I'd still lean towards saying Wood Bison and Gaur and probably about the same size and the two largest wild bovines.
If we had a larger data-set I suspect this reality would bear out. The consistent "rumours" from various independent sources talking about 3000 lbs Gaur make me think them and wood bison probably can get up around that territory occassionally, but normally are more like 2500 lbs.

The wild Asiatic Water Buffalo I suspect is 3rd. There was at least 1 study which only included 3 individuals where they averaged 900 kgs or 1985 lbs. This seems to align fairly well with seemingly every source repeating a 700-1200 kg range. The wilk yak also gets the 1200 kg figure thrown around, it might be true, but it's lower range being lower makes me want to put it just behind the water buffalo.

So-
1. Wood Bison
2. Gaur
3. Water Buffalo
4. Wild Yak
5. Plains Bison
6. Cape Buffalo

Is probably how I would rank the top 6 wild bovines in size, after the new info.

My bad, I forgot some more samples for Plains Bison due to some reason.





Max weight for plains bison is 2800 lbs and it seems there are some other bulls that exceeded 1000 kg as well. I don't think it's wise to include the water buffalo in the rating list yet since,you know, three buffaloes aren't enough. If they were ten, they could be taken into account. As for Wild Yak, I wouldn't really buy the 1200 kg figure tbh. They could probably reach this weight at maximum size, who knows

[kevin]

Skulls of different bovines :


I'd say that Bison and Yak pretty much have the broadest skulls of all the bovines shown in the screenshots on a proportional basis.

[s]

Jul 5, 2023 3:15:27 GMT Hardcastle said:

kevin

Thought this might interest you somewhat, I did this a while ago-

Jan 7, 2023 4:17:44 GMT Hardcastle said:

This would be my take on that question-

Bison
Offense (against predators) - 6
Offense (against bovines) - 10
Durability (against predators) - 8
Durability (against bovines) - 10
Strength - 9
Speed - 9
Agility - 8
Aggression - 7
AVG Overall - 8.375

Gaur
Offense (against predators) - 6
Offense (against bovines) - 6
Durability (against predators) - 10
Durability (against bovines) - 6
Strength - 9
Speed - 6
Agility - 6
Aggression - 6
AVG Overall - 6.875

Cape Buffalo
Offense (against predators) - 9
Offense (against bovines) - 8
Durability (against predators) - 9
Durability (against bovines) - 8
Strength - 9
Speed - 8
Agility - 7
Aggression - 9
AVG Overall - 8.375

Iberian Cattle
Offense (against predators) - 10
Offense (against bovines) - 8
Durability (against predators) - 7
Durability (against bovines) - 7
Strength - 7
Speed - 9
Agility - 9
Aggression - 10
AVG Overall - 8.375

I actually agree for the most part but i'll do a rework of Spanish Fighting Bull (which i assume that's what you mean by Iberian Cattle)

Offense (against Predators) - 10 (no change)
Offense (against Bovines) - 8
Durability (against Predators) - 8 (+1, very pain-tolerant and probably the bovine with the most stamina, compensates for the thinner skin IMO)
Durability (against Bovines) - 7 (no change)
Strenght - 8 (+1, they have sent Bengal Tigers flying in the first few seconds of a match)
Speed - 9 (no change)
Agility - 9 (no change)
Agression - 10 (no change)

Final note: 8.625

[s]

Bull Vs Bison/Buffalo depends a lot on the fight.

If the bull catches him well, he will take out the guts of the buffalo in a moment.

If the buffalo catches him well, he will break both horns with a headbutt.

conclusion is not known.

[s]

Hardcastle im interested to see where do you rank the extinct Aurochs