Comparing Bovines

[s]

Aug 28, 2023 20:47:16 GMT bombsonyourmom said:

Aug 28, 2023 20:39:46 GMT s said:

At sheer force? Bison's charge wins because it's much heavier, homever at parity even without factoring the frontal horns Bull's charge is the most impressive

"The energy of a bull charging exceeds 4,000 kilos of force and the pressure of the goring is similar to that of an artillery cannon. 

Source: we are going to use an hypothethical 550kg Bull moving at 10km/h, (not even their maximum sustainable speed which is 25km/h, or their maximum speed for short bursts which is about 40km/h) lots of mathematics:

How much energy does a 550 kg bull have moving at 10 km/h? That energy is what is transferred to the stage of the confinement route if it hits him or, in the worst case, a runner. The energy of a moving body is called kinetic energy, and is given by the expression:

Ec=1/2mv^2

We multiply the mass by the speed squared (expressed in meters divided per second) and divide it by 2. The result, substituting terms, is 2121.91 Joules, which is the International System unit for energy. As a review, standard safety footwear only resists 200 Joules. If a bull dissipated all its energy in the toe cap of a safety shoe, it would turn it into dust.

Now this energy (which is neither created nor destroyed, only transformed) is going to be invested in putting the horn into a wooden post and completely stopping the bull in the not inconsiderable amount of 5 centimeters. In other words, the horn goes 5 centimeters into the wood and the bull is completely stopped.

The work (energy) to do that is given by the expression:

Work = Force * Displacement

Substituting, 2121.91=F*0.05 (meters). Then F=42438.27 Newtons -Unit of the International System for Force-, which would be the equivalent of about 4326.02 kilos, just over four tons

These 42438 N are applied to a shaft of radius 0.5 cm. Then the concept of pressure arises, which is force divided by surface. The area of a circle is pi*R^2, where pi=3.1415927. The surface (already converted to square meters)=7.85E-5 m2.

So pressure P=42438.27/7.85E-5=5.41E+8 Pascals=5517 kg/cm2, a pressure close to that produced in artillery guns. Note to engineers, physicists and mathematicians: A spherical bull of radius R has been assumed to simulate this situation"

The problem with comparing animals to guns is that guns are clearly more lethal even if the numbers look similar. Any animal hit by a cannon is going to be ripped to pieces. It's not just going to be just flung into the air. Bullets and projectiles concentrate their force into a relatively tiny area. Even air rifles are capable of killing large animals like buffalo. 

My point was that a Bull's charge is as powerful in a general area than an Artillery gun is (in a general area, not in a specific point)

[Hardcastle]

Aug 29, 2023 8:49:07 GMT s said:

Aug 28, 2023 18:07:28 GMT Hardcastle said:

Most signs indicate the Aurochs was basically a larger version of Iberian cattle. It seems the iberian basically retained the true form of the aurochs.
Logically, however, the aurochs would have been less aggressive.
So, speculatively-


Aurochs
Offense (against predators) - 9
Offense (against bovines) - 9
Durability (against predators) - 8
Durability (against bovines) - 8
Strength - 9
Speed - 8
Agility - 7
Aggression - 8
AVG Overall - 8.25

Ok rating but Fighting Bulls (Miura/Lidia) aren't cattle, they aren't raised on farms or staples, but on large open fields called "Dehesas" in my country, they have little to no direct human contact before entering the bullring. And it's intentionally made that way in order for increased agressivity.

How does that make them "not cattle"? That applies to a lot of cattle. Most cattle in Australia ftr. They live on "stations" which are patches of wilderness the size of small countries and live as free wild animals until they are collected for slaughter. I don't understand why you think this impacts the reality that they are cattle.

[s]

Aug 29, 2023 8:54:36 GMT Hardcastle said:

Aug 29, 2023 8:49:07 GMT s said:

Ok rating but Fighting Bulls (Miura/Lidia) aren't cattle, they aren't raised on farms or staples, but on large open fields called "Dehesas" in my country, they have little to no direct human contact before entering the bullring. And it's intentionally made that way in order for increased agressivity.

How does that make them "not cattle"? That applies to a lot of cattle. Most cattle in Australia ftr. They live on "stations" which are patches of wilderness the size of small countries and live as free wild animals until they are collected for slaughter. I don't understand why you think this impacts the reality that they are cattle.

Yeah, my mistake, it's a kind of cattle selected to produce fighting bulls.

[s]

Aug 28, 2023 20:51:17 GMT Hardcastle said:

Bisons have skulls and body designs specifically geared towards high impact collisions. Not quite to the extent of a musk ox or bighorn sheep, but leaning towards those lines. Most likely a bull will get a concussion and knocked unconscious getting into a ramming contest with a bison. Bulls have a different drawn out "fencing" style of combat. In that style of combat they may also be outclassed by cape buffaloes and Asiatic water buffaloes. Vietnamese fighting buffaloes especially probably kill any bull or cape buffalo or gaur or wild water buffalo in a fight, but bison remain a wildcard even in that fight due to ramming ability.

Their ramming ability, however, almost comes at a cost of versatile formidability. Relatively speaking I don't think predators have much to fear from bison. They are very hard to kill (supremely hard to kill, shoot back up to the top) but as far as danger posed to predator, risk of death to predator, they are low. Maybe the lowest.

Spanish bull charge is no joke either! Although most of the energy comes from the frontal horns not from the body itself.

[bongoeurycerus]

I will make a detailed most later.

[PumAcinonyx SuperCat]

Jan 19, 2024 19:42:52 GMT bongoeurycerus said:

I will make a detailed post later.

Actually, Bongo, I think we're beginning to have a pile of statements like this where you say "I'm coming back" but then I don't see you show up again. 

I can easily point at not one, but 2, 3 or even 4 threads/places on Bestiary where you've said something like this but didn't come back. This is not accusatory BTW, let me just clarify that. It’s more like a thing of concern. I know we're all doing stuff outside of forums that can keep us occupied, but I just wish you could "follow up on your word" more. 

I get curious when you say "I'm coming back to make a lengthier post", I get excited and eagerly look forward to you making the post. So, my hopes get kind of dashed when I don't see you come back to make the post in like what? I dunno, maybe weeks? 

I'm just curious and interested in what the post will be. So, I'm surprised when I come back repeatedly and don't find it. 

Hope this helps.

[bongoeurycerus]

In terms of my personal preference, the American plains bison is my favourite. Its complex history, near extinction, symbol of the Wild West & Great Plains etc. I think at terms of the same size the american plains bison is the best in combat. The combination of adaptions to combat by thrust-fighting (protective mantle of hair around the head and neck, dermal shield and vertebrae and tendons on the hump) all make it excellent in interspecific strife mostly because during the rut bison live in large herds often with more than two or three bulls. 

Unlike the gaur, in which adult bulls live mostly solitary life, fight infrequently and not very violently. I have never heard of a fatality from a gaur fight yet. Thus at the same size I favour bison, buffalo and yacks against the gaur. 

I think it is important to see that the bison is at parity the best at fighting other bovines, but in fighting off predators Cape buffalo and fighting bulls are noticeably better, even though they lose in a bison fight.

Here is a little ranking..
 
American bison:
Predator fighting: 5 or 6.5/10
Interspecific fight: 8/10, I don’t know why but I am incapable of giving anything on this list 10/10 lol
Speed: 7/10
Stamina: 8/10

Gaur:
Predator fighting: 6-7 (kinda intermediate between bison and Cape buffalo / fighting bull)
Interspecific fight: 5 
Speed: 7/10 (gaur are actually really agile in females)
Stamina (5 or 6/10)

Fighting bull (aka Lidia)
Predator fighting: 8 or 9/10 (like the best here)
interspecific fight: 6 or 7
Speed 7 or 8/10
Stamina 7/10

[bongoeurycerus]

The black wildebeest or white-tailed gnu, a fierce and aggressive animal. The forwards hooking horns are of course very dangerous. 

I already posted some accounts in the gorilla thread, and old hunting books from the 1890s also tend to refer it as a savage and tenacious beast. Like the bisons, it was hunted to near extinction by the settlers, and only a few hundred survived. Until today, it mostly occurs on private ranches and only in very few reserves does it coexist with large predators. It would be interesting to see predation on this species.

Not sure where to post this…

[bongoeurycerus]

Reintroduction of the European bisons or wisents in Spain-

a large bull.