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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2023 12:31:26 GMT
Wild Yak & Domestic Yak  |
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Jul 6, 2023 12:31:52 GMT
Actually no, the source does know about the existence of gaur :  I don't believe that the 3300 lbs is accurate because there's no way to prove they reached such weight. They certainly wouldn't since not even Bison which are built stronger than equally sized gaur could reach such weight. Max size for Bison is 2800 lbs. The biggest Indian Gaur recorded weighed 1106 kg as proven by guate. I'd say that wild yaks being heavier than gaur is accurate because as shown in Undertaker's comparison, wild yaks and gaur are relative to each other in body length and shoulder height. Yaks pretty much fight like Bison do so they need to be bulky enough to withstand brutal attacks. And a bovine that regularly fights viciously by charging is bulkier than another bovine of similar body dimensions that doesn't charge or fight seriously. That's why it's safe to argue that Wild Yaks are on average bulkier than gaur. A greater bulk would mostly imply a greater weight increase. As I look around every source seems to say the gaur is taller, 2.2 metres for the guar vs 2 metres for the yak seems to be the general "common knowledge:. I know from experience the "common knowledge" sizes are often wrong, but I'm just struggling to find alternative information. Times like this I wish "Cojimar" was still around, he was the king of knowing the true max sizes of everything. I gotta say, if they were the same size I still get the impression the Gaur would weigh more. It's just insanely bulky.   I gotta say it also looks like a taller animal to my eye, but definitely a bulkier animal. No? I don't see how yaks are really built like bison at all, and I'm not convinced a bison is bulkier than a gaur either. Keep in mind I don't like gaur at all. I just think the one thing they genuinely DO have is a stupid amount of size. Almost too much for me to like them, they seem like cumbersome athletes which I don't like. gaur may seem impressive due to how muscular it looks but if you look at a gaur from this perspective : www.desicomments.com/wp-content/uploads/Photo-Of-Gaur-pkjmlk2336-600x400.jpgit doesn't actually look more impressively built than this bison for example : 1.bp.blogspot.com/-TOguhCjfg00/XpoC-lYEU4I/AAAAAAABXOw/quUzjBa9mJI-RYbPpQdSOIwGXL5tlj1nQCNcBGAsYHQ/s1600/DSC_0025%2B%25282%2529.JPGi couldn't find a similar picture for the wild yak unfortunately however being muscular wouldn't be of much use if you don't have the bulk to go with it. some cats may visually seem more muscular than bears but they aren't stronger than bears. technically, it is logical to argue that a bovine that routinely fights dangerously has to be bulkier than another similarly sized bovine that doesn't nearly fight as much or with as much intensity. the former would basically need to be bulky to be able to withstand rival attacks. Concerning max size, there is simply no proof that gaur could reach 3300 lbs. you actually have greater chances to argue that siberian tigers exceeded 660 lbs since there are at least some hunter statements to back the claim up, even if they are dubious. the same cannot be said for gaur since there is no evidence that someone claimed to have captured , weighed a gaur and have got 1500 kg. |
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Jul 6, 2023 12:33:47 GMT
Didn't 13 males average 1,500kg in a survey in India? nah no such survey exists. otherwise, it would have been mentioned by famous gaur researchers such as Farshid S. Ahrestani and K. Ullas Karanth. |
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Jul 6, 2023 12:35:25 GMT
I don't know, but it would be a good thing to find. Intuitively I feel like they are the biggest wild bovine, and rivalled only by rare domestic breeds of cattle like the Chianina and Charolais which can get up around 1600 kgs. Gaurs look huge to me, and most of the info suggests they are. Such info is often wrong with gaur I tend to believe it because they just look massive. I heavily doubt that the *largest* individual was only around 1100kg. i won't discount the possibility that there could be bigger gaur specimens. however, i just don't see them approach 3300 lbs. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jul 6, 2023 12:57:30 GMT
As I look around every source seems to say the gaur is taller, 2.2 metres for the guar vs 2 metres for the yak seems to be the general "common knowledge:. I know from experience the "common knowledge" sizes are often wrong, but I'm just struggling to find alternative information. Times like this I wish "Cojimar" was still around, he was the king of knowing the true max sizes of everything. I gotta say, if they were the same size I still get the impression the Gaur would weigh more. It's just insanely bulky. I gotta say it also looks like a taller animal to my eye, but definitely a bulkier animal. No? I don't see how yaks are really built like bison at all, and I'm not convinced a bison is bulkier than a gaur either. Keep in mind I don't like gaur at all. I just think the one thing they genuinely DO have is a stupid amount of size. Almost too much for me to like them, they seem like cumbersome athletes which I don't like. gaur may seem impressive due to how muscular it looks but if you look at a gaur from this perspective : www.desicomments.com/wp-content/uploads/Photo-Of-Gaur-pkjmlk2336-600x400.jpgit doesn't actually look more impressively built than this bison for example : 1.bp.blogspot.com/-TOguhCjfg00/XpoC-lYEU4I/AAAAAAABXOw/quUzjBa9mJI-RYbPpQdSOIwGXL5tlj1nQCNcBGAsYHQ/s1600/DSC_0025%2B%25282%2529.JPGi couldn't find a similar picture for the wild yak unfortunately however being muscular wouldn't be of much use if you don't have the bulk to go with it. some cats may visually seem more muscular than bears but they aren't stronger than bears. technically, it is logical to argue that a bovine that routinely fights dangerously has to be bulkier than another similarly sized bovine that doesn't nearly fight as much or with as much intensity. the former would basically need to be bulky to be able to withstand rival attacks. Concerning max size, there is simply no proof that gaur could reach 3300 lbs. you actually have greater chances to argue that siberian tigers exceeded 660 lbs since there are at least some hunter statements to back the claim up, even if they are dubious. the same cannot be said for gaur since there is no evidence that someone claimed to have captured , weighed a gaur and have got 1500 kg. I'd just say that's a shitty looking gaur specimen, I think we could do that with all of them. They vary in condition of course. Like these are both Brahman bulls.   |
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Jul 6, 2023 13:05:44 GMT
gaur may seem impressive due to how muscular it looks but if you look at a gaur from this perspective : www.desicomments.com/wp-content/uploads/Photo-Of-Gaur-pkjmlk2336-600x400.jpgit doesn't actually look more impressively built than this bison for example : 1.bp.blogspot.com/-TOguhCjfg00/XpoC-lYEU4I/AAAAAAABXOw/quUzjBa9mJI-RYbPpQdSOIwGXL5tlj1nQCNcBGAsYHQ/s1600/DSC_0025%2B%25282%2529.JPGi couldn't find a similar picture for the wild yak unfortunately however being muscular wouldn't be of much use if you don't have the bulk to go with it. some cats may visually seem more muscular than bears but they aren't stronger than bears. technically, it is logical to argue that a bovine that routinely fights dangerously has to be bulkier than another similarly sized bovine that doesn't nearly fight as much or with as much intensity. the former would basically need to be bulky to be able to withstand rival attacks. Concerning max size, there is simply no proof that gaur could reach 3300 lbs. you actually have greater chances to argue that siberian tigers exceeded 660 lbs since there are at least some hunter statements to back the claim up, even if they are dubious. the same cannot be said for gaur since there is no evidence that someone claimed to have captured , weighed a gaur and have got 1500 kg. I'd just say that's a shitty looking gaur specimen, I think we could do that with all of them. They vary in condition of course. Like these are both Brahman bulls. Ok I can use a fine,muscular looking gaur to compare :    |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jul 6, 2023 15:25:58 GMT
I'd just say that's a shitty looking gaur specimen, I think we could do that with all of them. They vary in condition of course. Like these are both Brahman bulls. Ok I can use a fine,muscular looking gaur to compare : They look kind of similar to me?? Especially from "the neck back"? The bison just has it's "mane", but otherwise? I think we need a "shaved bison" tbh. Interestingly in texts from the 1800s they called gaur "Indian Bison". Can kind of see why. Now... the bison is IMO much better built for bovine on bovine collision in the skull and neck, BUT otherwise, for overall power and strength and size? I think the gaur is at least comparable, and it seems possibly bigger. I think the bison, gaur and Yak are ALL relatively narrow across the body compared to buffalo. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2023 15:28:32 GMT
Ok I can use a fine,muscular looking gaur to compare : They look kind of similar to me?? Especially from "the neck back"? The bison just has it's "mane", but otherwise? I think we need a "shaved bison" tbh. Interestingly in texts from the 1800s they called gaur "Indian Bison". Can kind of see why. Now... the bison is IMO much better built for bovine on bovine collision in the skull and neck, BUT otherwise, for overall power and strength and size? I think the gaur is at least comparable, and it seems possibly bigger. I think the bison, gaur and Yak are ALL relatively narrow across the body compared to buffalo. For some reason I get the feeling that the Wild Yak could boss around a Bison...I'm not sure why... Yaks are just insanely aggressive in bovid-v-bovid conflicts. |
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Jul 6, 2023 15:33:55 GMT
Ok I can use a fine,muscular looking gaur to compare : They look kind of similar to me?? Especially from "the neck back"? The bison just has it's "mane", but otherwise? I think we need a "shaved bison" tbh. Interestingly in texts from the 1800s they called gaur "Indian Bison". Can kind of see why. Now... the bison is IMO much better built for bovine on bovine collision in the skull and neck, BUT otherwise, for overall power and strength and size? I think the gaur is at least comparable, and it seems possibly bigger. I think the bison, gaur and Yak are ALL relatively narrow across the body compared to buffalo. They may look similar but that's a plains bison which is smaller in body dimensions than gaur and yet can already rival the gaur in bulk. A bigger bison similar to gaur in body dimensions would be bulkier. Which buffalo are you referring to ? |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jul 6, 2023 15:40:49 GMT
They look kind of similar to me?? Especially from "the neck back"? The bison just has it's "mane", but otherwise? I think we need a "shaved bison" tbh. Interestingly in texts from the 1800s they called gaur "Indian Bison". Can kind of see why. Now... the bison is IMO much better built for bovine on bovine collision in the skull and neck, BUT otherwise, for overall power and strength and size? I think the gaur is at least comparable, and it seems possibly bigger. I think the bison, gaur and Yak are ALL relatively narrow across the body compared to buffalo. They may look similar but that's a plains bison which is smaller in body dimensions than gaur and yet can already rival the gaur in bulk. A bigger bison similar to gaur in body dimensions would be bulkier. Which buffalo are you referring to ? Well I'm arguing it CAN'T match it in bulk. We still have most sources saying Gaur have more bulk. Proportionately similar in bulk, with gaur being bigger, is still where I am leaning. Cape buffalo and asiatic water buffalo are shorter than bison and gaur, but I think are wider across which is why they reach similar weights to bison despite being shorter. Then the gaur is taller than the bison and ultimately is the heaviest of all. That is still what I think until I get stronger evidence. Its the official story as well. That doesn't mean much necessarily but I'm not convinced by arguments to the contrary. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jul 6, 2023 15:43:08 GMT
They look kind of similar to me?? Especially from "the neck back"? The bison just has it's "mane", but otherwise? I think we need a "shaved bison" tbh. Interestingly in texts from the 1800s they called gaur "Indian Bison". Can kind of see why. Now... the bison is IMO much better built for bovine on bovine collision in the skull and neck, BUT otherwise, for overall power and strength and size? I think the gaur is at least comparable, and it seems possibly bigger. I think the bison, gaur and Yak are ALL relatively narrow across the body compared to buffalo. For some reason I get the feeling that the Wild Yak could boss around a Bison...I'm not sure why... Yaks are just insanely aggressive in bovid-v-bovid conflicts. I disagree. I think a bison would knock a yak out with a running high-impact collision. I respect Kevin's Yak appreciation but don't really share it. I rate the gaur probably lowest of all in bovine vs bovine, and bison highest, but I don't rate yak as highly as kevin does and I guess not as high as you do either. |
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Jul 6, 2023 16:09:25 GMT
They may look similar but that's a plains bison which is smaller in body dimensions than gaur and yet can already rival the gaur in bulk. A bigger bison similar to gaur in body dimensions would be bulkier. Which buffalo are you referring to ? Well I'm arguing it CAN'T match it in bulk. We still have most sources saying Gaur have more bulk. Proportionately similar in bulk, with gaur being bigger, is still where I am leaning. Cape buffalo and asiatic water buffalo are shorter than bison and gaur, but I think are wider across which is why they reach similar weights to bison despite being shorter. Then the gaur is taller than the bison and ultimately is the heaviest of all. That is still what I think until I get stronger evidence. Its the official story as well. That doesn't mean much necessarily but I'm not convinced by arguments to the contrary. Cape buffaloes would hardly conpare to young bison in bulk :   And they don't reach similar weight. You may have heard they average 750 kg but that is just one population . Overall , they are just a few dozen kilos above 600 kg,While american plains bison can average over 740 kg. That is a big difference in weight. We don't really have credible weight information concerning asiatic buffaloes so i can't really talk much about them. Concerning gaur vs bison. Let's just start by the fact that wood bison are heavier on average than gaur based on actual weight samples and since both bovids are relative to each other in body length and bison are a bit shorter and are heavier, they ought to be bulkier. Gaurs hardly rival plains bison in bulk with the latter being smaller in weight and body dimensions. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jul 6, 2023 16:33:04 GMT
I just don't know where you are getting your numbers from? You may have a good source. I rarely say this; but can you post that source?
The official spiel is-
Official is often wrong, but where are you getting the info which shows it to be wrong?
Like I said, my understanding is Cape Buffalo, Asiatic Buffalo and Bison all range around 1800 and 2200 lbs. Then domestic asiatic buffalo actually range up to 2600 lbs, and Gaur range up to 3000+ lbs. That is what all the basic layman sources say, I am ready and willing to accept they are wrong, but based on what?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2023 16:47:17 GMT
For some reason I get the feeling that the Wild Yak could boss around a Bison...I'm not sure why... Yaks are just insanely aggressive in bovid-v-bovid conflicts. I disagree. I think a bison would knock a yak out with a running high-impact collision. I respect Kevin's Yak appreciation but don't really share it. I rate the gaur probably lowest of all in bovine vs bovine, and bison highest, but I don't rate yak as highly as kevin does and I guess not as high as you do either. I rate them above most bovids. I only rank the American bison and the Water buffalo (only the fighting type) above the Wild Yak. Cape buffaloes are little bit further down. I feel like Cape buffaloes just really aren't great against other bovids. There's a video on YouTube of a smaller domestic bull bossing one around, it was clearly stronger than the buffalo despite the size disadvantage. |
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Jul 6, 2023 16:50:15 GMT
I just don't know where you are getting your numbers from? You may have a good source. I rarely say this; but can you post that source? The official spiel is- Official is often wrong, but where are you getting the info which shows it to be wrong? Like I said, my understanding is Cape Buffalo, Asiatic Buffalo and Bison all range around 1800 and 2200 lbs. Then domestic asiatic buffalo actually range up to 2600 lbs, and Gaur range up to 3000+ lbs. That is what all the basic layman sources say, I am ready and willing to accept they are wrong, but based on what? I'll post some weight data later. |
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