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Post by s on Aug 28, 2023 17:47:26 GMT
Aurochs
Offense against predators - 10
Offense against bovines - 9
Durability against predators - 10
Durability against bovines - 9
Strenght - 9
Speed - 8
Agility - 7
Agression - 9?
AVG overall: 8.875
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2023 17:49:11 GMT
Aurochs Offense against predators - 10 Offense against bovines - 9 Durability against predators - 10 Durability against bovines - 9 Strenght - 9 Speed - 8 Agility - 7 Agression - 9? AVG overall: 8.875 I don't think Aurochs was that aggressive if they were tamed and led to making modern domestic cattle. Like African buffaloes have not been tamed BECAUSE they are so aggressive and unpredictable. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Aug 28, 2023 18:07:28 GMT
Hardcastle im interested to see where do you rank the extinct Aurochs Most signs indicate the Aurochs was basically a larger version of Iberian cattle. It seems the iberian basically retained the true form of the aurochs. Logically, however, the aurochs would have been less aggressive. So, speculatively- AurochsOffense (against predators) - 9 Offense (against bovines) - 9 Durability (against predators) - 8 Durability (against bovines) - 8 Strength - 9 Speed - 8 Agility - 7 Aggression - 8 AVG Overall - 8.25 |
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Post by Hardcastle on Aug 28, 2023 18:08:54 GMT
Aurochs Offense against predators - 10 Offense against bovines - 9 Durability against predators - 10 Durability against bovines - 9 Strenght - 9 Speed - 8 Agility - 7 Agression - 9? AVG overall: 8.875 I don't think Aurochs was that aggressive if they were tamed and led to making modern domestic cattle. Like African buffaloes have not been tamed BECAUSE they are so aggressive and unpredictable. Yeah nah. That's just not how domestication works. Common misconception and misunderstanding around what domestication is. Cape buffaloes could be tamed, no issue, they simply didn't have alanos in stone age Africa. No wild bovine is anywhere near as aggressive or unpredictable as domestic Iberian cattle. The book "guns germs and steel" proposed this theory, but it was couched in ignorance and my book will totally destroy that book. |
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Post by bombsonyourmom on Aug 28, 2023 19:50:16 GMT
Bison are definitely the best at smashing other large animals. Their charges produce crazy force.
However, they seem to struggle to damage light animals like wolves. They're able to throw them around like ragdolls but it seems most of the force of their attacks is lost and don't actually transfer over or something. I guess it's kind of like swatting a fly or a bee with one hand, you'll move it around it without really hurting. To kill it you need to press it against another surface to squash it.
Aurochs and bulls are less suited for brute strength contests against larger bovines but based on old accounts they seem to be very good at gutting smaller agile predators like lions or tigers.
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Post by Hardcastle on Aug 28, 2023 19:58:47 GMT
Bison are definitely the best at smashing other large animals. Their charges produce crazy force. However, they seem to struggle to damage light animals like wolves. They're able to throw them around like ragdolls but it seems most of the force of their attacks is lost and don't actually transfer over or something. I guess it's kind of like swatting a fly or a bee with one hand, you'll move it around it without really hurting. To kill it you need to press it against another surface to squash it. Aurochs and bulls are less suited for brute strength contests against larger bovines but based on old accounts they seem to be very good at gutting smaller agile predators like lions or tigers. Shrewd observation. Ramming rival bovines and killing predators are two very different things. I doubt any wild bovine is better suited for killing predators than the spanish fighting bull. |
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Post by s on Aug 28, 2023 20:12:19 GMT
Aurochs Offense against predators - 10 Offense against bovines - 9 Durability against predators - 10 Durability against bovines - 9 Strenght - 9 Speed - 8 Agility - 7 Agression - 9? AVG overall: 8.875 I don't think Aurochs was that aggressive if they were tamed and led to making modern domestic cattle. Like African buffaloes have not been tamed BECAUSE they are so aggressive and unpredictable. We are using Wild Aurochs in the thread. Just like we are using Wild Buffaloes instead of domesticated cattle Buffaloes. Closest extant bovine to Aurochs is Spanish Fighting Bull, which i gave a "10" in agressivity compared to the "9" of Buffalo and Aurochs |
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Post by bombsonyourmom on Aug 28, 2023 20:13:39 GMT
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Post by s on Aug 28, 2023 20:31:30 GMT
Aurochs Offense against predators - 10 Offense against bovines - 9 Durability against predators - 10 Durability against bovines - 9 Strenght - 9 Speed - 8 Agility - 7 Agression - 9? AVG overall: 8.875 I don't think Aurochs was that aggressive if they were tamed and led to making modern domestic cattle. Like African buffaloes have not been tamed BECAUSE they are so aggressive and unpredictable. Wild Water Buffaloes are even more agressive and have been sucessfully tamed though. I guess its because Cape Buffaloes are more solitary and don't really bond with people. |
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Post by s on Aug 28, 2023 20:39:46 GMT
Bison are definitely the best at smashing other large animals. Their charges produce crazy force. However, they seem to struggle to damage light animals like wolves. They're able to throw them around like ragdolls but it seems most of the force of their attacks is lost and don't actually transfer over or something. I guess it's kind of like swatting a fly or a bee with one hand, you'll move it around it without really hurting. To kill it you need to press it against another surface to squash it. Aurochs and bulls are less suited for brute strength contests against larger bovines but based on old accounts they seem to be very good at gutting smaller agile predators like lions or tigers. At sheer force? Bison's charge wins because it's much heavier, homever at parity even without factoring the frontal horns Bull's charge is the most impressive "The energy of a bull charging exceeds 4,000 kilos of force and the pressure of the goring is similar to that of an artillery cannon.
Source: we are going to use an hypothethical 550kg Bull moving at 10km/h, (not even their maximum sustainable speed which is 25km/h, or their maximum speed for short bursts which is about 40km/h) lots of mathematics:
How much energy does a 550 kg bull have moving at 10 km/h? That energy is what is transferred to the stage of the confinement route if it hits him or, in the worst case, a runner. The energy of a moving body is called kinetic energy, and is given by the expression:
Ec=1/2mv^2
We multiply the mass by the speed squared (expressed in meters divided per second) and divide it by 2. The result, substituting terms, is 2121.91 Joules, which is the International System unit for energy. As a review, standard safety footwear only resists 200 Joules. If a bull dissipated all its energy in the toe cap of a safety shoe, it would turn it into dust.
Now this energy (which is neither created nor destroyed, only transformed) is going to be invested in putting the horn into a wooden post and completely stopping the bull in the not inconsiderable amount of 5 centimeters. In other words, the horn goes 5 centimeters into the wood and the bull is completely stopped.
The work (energy) to do that is given by the expression:
Work = Force * Displacement
Substituting, 2121.91=F*0.05 (meters). Then F=42438.27 Newtons -Unit of the International System for Force-, which would be the equivalent of about 4326.02 kilos, just over four tons
These 42438 N are applied to a shaft of radius 0.5 cm. Then the concept of pressure arises, which is force divided by surface. The area of a circle is pi*R^2, where pi=3.1415927. The surface (already converted to square meters)=7.85E-5 m2.
So pressure P=42438.27/7.85E-5=5.41E+8 Pascals=5517 kg/cm2, a pressure close to that produced in artillery guns. Note to engineers, physicists and mathematicians: A spherical bull of radius R has been assumed to simulate this situation" |
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Post by bombsonyourmom on Aug 28, 2023 20:47:16 GMT
Bison are definitely the best at smashing other large animals. Their charges produce crazy force. However, they seem to struggle to damage light animals like wolves. They're able to throw them around like ragdolls but it seems most of the force of their attacks is lost and don't actually transfer over or something. I guess it's kind of like swatting a fly or a bee with one hand, you'll move it around it without really hurting. To kill it you need to press it against another surface to squash it. Aurochs and bulls are less suited for brute strength contests against larger bovines but based on old accounts they seem to be very good at gutting smaller agile predators like lions or tigers. At sheer force? Bison's charge wins because it's much heavier, homever at parity even without factoring the frontal horns Bull's charge is the most impressive "The energy of a bull charging exceeds 4,000 kilos of force and the pressure of the goring is similar to that of an artillery cannon.
Source: we are going to use an hypothethical 550kg Bull moving at 10km/h, (not even their maximum sustainable speed which is 25km/h, or their maximum speed for short bursts which is about 40km/h) lots of mathematics:
How much energy does a 550 kg bull have moving at 10 km/h? That energy is what is transferred to the stage of the confinement route if it hits him or, in the worst case, a runner. The energy of a moving body is called kinetic energy, and is given by the expression:
Ec=1/2mv^2
We multiply the mass by the speed squared (expressed in meters divided per second) and divide it by 2. The result, substituting terms, is 2121.91 Joules, which is the International System unit for energy. As a review, standard safety footwear only resists 200 Joules. If a bull dissipated all its energy in the toe cap of a safety shoe, it would turn it into dust.
Now this energy (which is neither created nor destroyed, only transformed) is going to be invested in putting the horn into a wooden post and completely stopping the bull in the not inconsiderable amount of 5 centimeters. In other words, the horn goes 5 centimeters into the wood and the bull is completely stopped.
The work (energy) to do that is given by the expression:
Work = Force * Displacement
Substituting, 2121.91=F*0.05 (meters). Then F=42438.27 Newtons -Unit of the International System for Force-, which would be the equivalent of about 4326.02 kilos, just over four tons
These 42438 N are applied to a shaft of radius 0.5 cm. Then the concept of pressure arises, which is force divided by surface. The area of a circle is pi*R^2, where pi=3.1415927. The surface (already converted to square meters)=7.85E-5 m2.
So pressure P=42438.27/7.85E-5=5.41E+8 Pascals=5517 kg/cm2, a pressure close to that produced in artillery guns. Note to engineers, physicists and mathematicians: A spherical bull of radius R has been assumed to simulate this situation" The problem with comparing animals to guns is that guns are clearly more lethal even if the numbers look similar. Any animal hit by a cannon is going to be ripped to pieces. It's not just going to be just flung into the air. Bullets and projectiles concentrate their force into a relatively tiny area. Even air rifles are capable of killing large animals like buffalo. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Aug 28, 2023 20:51:17 GMT
Bisons have skulls and body designs specifically geared towards high impact collisions. Not quite to the extent of a musk ox or bighorn sheep, but leaning towards those lines. Most likely a bull will get a concussion and knocked unconscious getting into a ramming contest with a bison. Bulls have a different drawn out "fencing" style of combat. In that style of combat they may also be outclassed by cape buffaloes and Asiatic water buffaloes. Vietnamese fighting buffaloes especially probably kill any bull or cape buffalo or gaur or wild water buffalo in a fight, but bison remain a wildcard even in that fight due to ramming ability.
Their ramming ability, however, almost comes at a cost of versatile formidability. Relatively speaking I don't think predators have much to fear from bison. They are very hard to kill (supremely hard to kill, shoot back up to the top) but as far as danger posed to predator, risk of death to predator, they are low. Maybe the lowest.
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Post by bombsonyourmom on Aug 28, 2023 21:10:30 GMT
I think a bear would get smashed if it took on a head on charge from a bison. I think bears are great fighters against similar sized animals but their lack of agility means they less suited to taking on much larger animals. Bison evolved during a time when there were larger predators like saber cats and American lions. I know dire wolves existed but I am not sure there is any conclusive proof they often ate bison and it seems they preferred horses.
It could be the case that bison were good at battering huge predators like smilodon populator and never needed to deal with lightweight like grey wolves. Once the heavy hitters went extinct, however, grey wolves might had more leeway to hunt bison since they could take their time and kill them sincethey no longer had to worry about mugged by a bunch giant cats and only had to worry about grizzly bears.
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Post by grampa on Aug 28, 2023 22:54:18 GMT
I have read numerous books about the historic grizzly. The largest inland grizzlies were the California grizzlies and the Great Plains grizzlies. They were much larger that the Rocky Mountain grizzlies, as can be found in Wyoming and Montana.
The record inland grizzly skulls is a found skull from a Great Plains grizzly. Those bears often followed the huge bison herds. They scavenged dead bison and displaced wolves from their kills. They also actively preyed upon cows and calves.
According to both pioneers and Indians, some times a big boar grizzly fought a big bull bison. Some favored the bison and some favored the bear. Each, according to the tales told, won their fair share of those fights; which seem to be normally instigated by the bull bison.
Not very long ago, There were some bull European bison killed by European brown bears.
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Post by s on Aug 29, 2023 8:49:07 GMT
Hardcastle im interested to see where do you rank the extinct Aurochs Most signs indicate the Aurochs was basically a larger version of Iberian cattle. It seems the iberian basically retained the true form of the aurochs. Logically, however, the aurochs would have been less aggressive. So, speculatively- AurochsOffense (against predators) - 9 Offense (against bovines) - 9 Durability (against predators) - 8 Durability (against bovines) - 8 Strength - 9 Speed - 8 Agility - 7 Aggression - 8 AVG Overall - 8.25 Ok rating but Fighting Bulls (Miura/Lidia) aren't cattle according to a traditional definition, they aren't raised on farms or staples, but on large open fields called "Dehesas" in my country, they have little to no direct human contact before entering the bullring. And it's intentionally made that way in order for increased agressivity. |
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