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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2023 21:44:12 GMT
There's a reason I said that. The carnivore limb robustness study also has lions scoring above tigers, but reality doesn't seem to agree with this. Lions struggle to take down cape buffaloes in large groups, yet tigers have singlehandedly killed gaurs and water buffaloes 6 to 7 times their size, both species being larger than cape buffaloes. Even if you try to say, "gaurs have thinner necks", well what do you have to say about water buffaloes? Why does the tiger ROUTINELY and SINGLEHANDEDLY kill bigger prey than what lion prides kill when the lion scores above the tiger in that very same robusticity study? Answer that question. There have been many cases of lionesses killing cape buffalo single handedly. I've watched it many times, and yes sometimes a pride struggles as well. This just shows that our perception of the benefits of numbers are a little overblown or too oversimplified. This one did it the hard way, but honestly I grew up seeing it happen on tv every other week and have been surprised when I see people try to say a lion can't kill a buffalo 1 on 1. Another - Males - Guar and water buffalos are also worse at fighting predators than cape buffalo. Have also seen a tiger get shit whipped by what looked like a half starved dairy cow, so yeah we can't get too carried away seeing this or that failure. Lions and tigers both are adapted to take large bovines alone. Lions are social primarily to compete with AWDs and Spotted hyenas. Bovines are always unpredictable though. They're simply not intelligent enough to realise their immence advantage over predators imo. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2023 21:48:52 GMT
We’d better be talking a peak British Columbian or Patagonian Tom versus something like a Mexican jaguar in this thread. I’m afraid it doesn’t hold water otherwise. Cougar kills male elk: ibb.co/8xHtb8zYou also have the (staged?) instance of Comfylounge’s old signature. Elk are the most impressive animal I know of cougars killing. For jaguars, probably cattle, followed by tapirs and black caiman. There isn’t a lot of megafauna in South America tbh. The difference between a "PEAK" male BC or Patagonian cougar and a Mexican jaguar would be vast. So vast, that the jaguar would be easily overcome. You're talking about a 90 to 100 kg cougar vs a 50 to 60 kg jaguar? Nah, that's clearly a mismatch in the mountain lion’s favour. This is one match that certainly holds no water. A closer match would be between both cats at similar masses, maybe a big BC cougar against the average male Pantanal jaguar or a fight between the Mexican versions of both cats. Plus, elk are most definitely not the best things they have killed. Bull moose probably are (will show the evidence if necessary). The best thing they CAN (have the potential to, I'm not saying "have") kill is American bison weighing between 500 to 700 kg, provided the cougars we are talking about are in the 80-100 kg range. And I have 3 different answers on Quora that perfectly prove and explain that. With all due respect: Jaguar>Leopard Cougar=Leopard Therefore, Jaguar>Cougar |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jun 12, 2023 21:59:59 GMT
Bovines are always unpredictable though. They're simply not intelligent enough to realise their immence advantage over predators imo. Sure, and you're gonna find cases where the predators make it look easy, some where they make it look very hard, and other times where they make it look impossible and lose outright. You can find 1 lioness beating a buffalo easily and then find a pride of ten lions with two males who all get laid to waste and made to look foolish. I always maintain that best vs best on a "fair pitch" the prey animal is gonna win nearly every time at whatever contest they traditionally engage in. That could be a cheetah chasing a gazelle, or a lion pride struggling with a buffalo. If it's a good gazelle in its prime it will probably evade the cheetah and skip away triumphantly while the cheetah comes to a stop and takes in big breaths, defeated. Likewise a top prime cape buffalo will probably scatter the lion pride and leave them strewn about while it trots away with its head held high. This is true for every predator/prey relationship and the only way the system can work. Predators don't have to win every time, they can lose 9 out of 10 times, after choosing a weaker target, and they do, and it's fine. The best prey animals need to fend off multiple predation attempts in order to even breed, so they are poised to have an advantage. That's the balance of nature. We just need to look at the bigger picture rather than isolated case, understand what an animal has to be able to do in order to survive and breed and raise successful offspring. That is what any given animal is, the product of that. "I seen a lynx kill a cow once" is actually pointless BS, lynx don't need to be able to do that, and generally can't, so its not even worth talking about. It's best to understand a lynx for what it actually is, which is something that kills hares and birds and deer fawns. That is what it is evolved to be, and it is evolved to fail at those things most of the time btw. Lions and tigers are genuine bonafide big-game hunters (but still should be expected to fail more often than succeed), jaguars are right there on the edge looking in. Pumas and leopards are not that, but pull off some feats contrary to that characterisation occassionally because all sorts of weird shit can happen. But generally they are deer/antelope hunters by design. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2023 22:39:26 GMT
Bovines are always unpredictable though. They're simply not intelligent enough to realise their immence advantage over predators imo. Sure, and you're gonna find cases where the predators make it look easy, some where they make it look very hard, and other times where they make it look impossible and lose outright. You can find 1 lioness beating a buffalo easily and then find a pride of ten lions with two males who all get laid to waste and made to look foolish. I always maintain that best vs best on a "fair pitch" the prey animal is gonna win nearly every time at whatever contest they traditionally engage in. That could be a cheetah chasing a gazelle, or a lion pride struggling with a buffalo. If it's a good gazelle in its prime it will probably evade the cheetah and skip away triumphantly while the cheetah comes to a stop and takes in big breaths, defeated. Likewise a top prime cape buffalo will probably scatter the lion pride and leave them strewn about while it trots away with its head held high. This is true for every predator/prey relationship and the only way the system can work. Predators don't have to win every time, they can lose 9 out of 10 times, after choosing a weaker target, and they do, and it's fine. The best prey animals need to fend off multiple predation attempts in order to even breed, so they are poised to have an advantage. That's the balance of nature. We just need to look at the bigger picture rather than isolated case, understand what an animal has to be able to do in order to survive and breed and raise successful offspring. That is what any given animal is, the product of that. "I seen a lynx kill a cow once" is actually pointless BS, lynx don't need to be able to do that, and generally can't, so its not even worth talking about. It's best to understand a lynx for what it actually is, which is something that kills hares and birds and deer fawns. That is what it is evolved to be, and it is evolved to fail at those things most of the time btw. Lions and tigers are genuine bonafide big-game hunters (but still should be expected to fail more often than succeed), jaguars are right there on the edge looking in. Pumas and leopards are not that, but pull off some feats contrary to that characterisation occassionally because all sorts of weird shit can happen. But generally they are deer/antelope hunters by design. Cape Buffalo are more unpredictable than water Buffalo. They are the most unpredictable bovine IMO. |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Aug 21, 2023 11:46:01 GMT
Everyone, I think my view on this battle has changed a bit. I've found another source that contradicts the sources I posted at the beginning of this thread (first page). It's about a man (Paul Fountain) talking about his adventures in the mountains of America. In a series of pages in his book, he talks about cougars and jaguars, and in 2 pages he makes some comparison between the 2 cats (their body length, tail length etc). In one particular page, he does make reference to the fact that naturalists and South American natives do tell stories/accounts of cougars attacking, conquering/tyrannising over jaguars, and says that the experience he has is actually the exact opposite: that the cougar has no chance with the jaguar. He even states that he has actually seen a real-life encounter between the 2 cats where a jaguar attacked a cougar that was only a little bit smaller than itself (that is, almost at parity), and mauled it so badly that he believed the cougar’s chances of recovering from its wounds were little to none. Earlier on, he made mention of how a jaguar that measures 4 feet in total body and tail length has significantly more than 1/3 greater bulk/weight than a cougar 3 feet in length ( mathematically speaking, if a jaguar is longer than a 3-foot long cougar by one foot, it should outweigh the cougar by a third of the cougar's own body mass). Effectively, I believe he is trying to say that at the same body length (and possibly height too), a jaguar weighs substantially more than a cougar. This would suggest that the jaguar is a considerably more robust cat than a cougar, in the sense that it can fit in more muscle mass into the same size frame/body dimensions. This could account for the dramatic difference in pound for pound power. So, yes, I have changed my mind. I do now believe a jaguar is pound for pound stronger than a cougar. Possibly even buy a long shot. But I can't say the same for lions and tigers. I was actually kind of skeptical of those South American stories tbh (the idea of a cougar following a jaguar around and waiting for the perfect moment to strike, or "harassing it as a tyrant-bird harasses an eagle or hawk" honestly sounds kind of stupid. It's similar to those accounts of leopards killing tigers), but I just felt the need to post them, as pro-cougar. I know this thread has been over for a while, but I just felt it necessary to inform the board that I have a different belief now. These are the pages I was talking about: (Start from the last paragraph on page 74)   Taken From: The great mountains and forests of South America (Pages 74-75): archive.org/details/greatmountainsfo00founIf anyone has anything to add BTW, please feel free. I'd like to know what everyone thinks. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Aug 21, 2023 12:06:36 GMT
Everyone, I think my view on this battle has changed a bit. I've found another source that contradicts the sources I posted at the beginning of this thread (first page). It's about a man (Paul Fountain) talking about his adventures in the mountains of America. In a series of pages in his book, he talks about cougars and jaguars, and in 2 pages he makes some comparison between the 2 cats (their body length, tail length etc). In one particular page, he does make reference to the fact that naturalists and South American natives do tell stories/accounts of cougars attacking, conquering/tyrannising over jaguars, and says that the experience he has is actually the exact opposite: that the cougar has no chance with the jaguar. He even states that he has actually seen a real-life encounter between the 2 cats where a jaguar attacked a cougar that was only a little bit smaller than itself (that is, almost at parity), and mauled it so badly that he believed the cougar’s chances of recovering from its wounds were little to none. Earlier on, he made mention of how a jaguar that measures 4 feet in total body and tail length has significantly more than 1/3 greater bulk/weight than a cougar 3 feet in length ( mathematically speaking, if a jaguar is longer than a 3-foot long cougar by one foot, it should outweigh the cougar by a third of the cougar's own body mass). Effectively, I believe he is trying to say that at the same body length (and possibly height too), a jaguar weighs substantially more than a cougar. This would suggest that the jaguar is a considerably more robust cat than a cougar, in the sense that it can fit in more muscle mass into the same size frame/body dimensions. This could account for the dramatic difference in pound for pound power. So, yes, I have changed my mind. I do now believe a jaguar is pound for pound stronger than a cougar. Possibly even buy a long shot. But I can't say the same for lions and tigers. I was actually kind of skeptical of those South American stories tbh (the idea of a cougar following a jaguar around and waiting for the perfect moment to strike, or "harassing it as a tyrant-bird harasses an eagle or hawk" honestly sounds kind of stupid. It's similar to those accounts of leopards killing tigers), but I just felt the need to post them, as pro-cougar. I know this thread has been over for a while, but I just felt it necessary to inform the board that I have a different belief now. These are the pages I was talking about: (Start from the last paragraph on page 74) Taken From: The great mountains and forests of South America (Pages 74-75): archive.org/details/greatmountainsfo00founIf anyone has anything to add BTW, please feel free. I'd like to know what everyone thinks. Good stuff Supercat, what you just did is hard to do, hardly anyone in Ava ever does it (unfortunately). It is almost uncannily rare. And I'm not above struggling with it myself. I'd still hold on to the fact that a huge tom cougar, unfortunately all of which are from well outside the jaguar's natural range, could make things pretty interesting. A 200 + lbs jacked puma could still conceivably defeat a lot of fully mature adult male jaguars which weigh less. But yeah I think I'd favour a parity jaguar, and of course a bigger jaguar as well. Note I have also come to accept that big tom cougar up in that 160-200+ lbs register is sadly too much for any dog 1 on 1. |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Aug 21, 2023 12:09:53 GMT
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Aug 21, 2023 12:20:36 GMT
Video to show that jaguar is more compactly built:
You can clearly see that the jaguar looks more husky, and has a noticeably bigger head. They appear to be of similar length (it's not easy to know because of the camera angle, but it sure looks like that to me). I know these are cubs, but it’s still a good representative of what these 2 cats will look like when they are adults.
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Post by Hardcastle on Aug 21, 2023 12:25:22 GMT
I think a size comparison between 2 lets say 200 lbs males would be interesting, the Jaguar would look tiny in comparison. That is the other side of being more compactly built.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2023 12:55:13 GMT
This would suggest that the jaguar is a considerably more robust cat than a cougar, in the sense that it can fit in more muscle mass into the same size frame/body dimensions. Very good Supercat. I myself now actually believe that bush elephants are larger than cape buffaloes after finding an old account from 128 years ago stating such. We are alike Supercat. |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Aug 21, 2023 12:57:39 GMT
Thanks @ling
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Post by Hardcastle on Aug 21, 2023 12:57:59 GMT
This would suggest that the jaguar is a considerably more robust cat than a cougar, in the sense that it can fit in more muscle mass into the same size frame/body dimensions. Very good Supercat. I myself now actually believe that bush elephants are larger than cape buffaloes after finding an old account from 128 years ago stating such. We are alike Supercat. Sometimes you don't have to be an asshole. There are real enemies out there. Save it for them. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2023 13:01:10 GMT
Very good Supercat. I myself now actually believe that bush elephants are larger than cape buffaloes after finding an old account from 128 years ago stating such. We are alike Supercat. Sometimes you don't have to be an asshole. There are real enemies out there. Save it for them. ...yeah sorry PumAcinonyx SuperCat. Glad you've changes your opinion. Takes a lot of gut to shy down your favourite animal. |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Aug 21, 2023 13:16:41 GMT
@ling
IKR. But we cannot but fight for the truth. The cougar may be my favourite animal, but it's still a way better choice than living a lie.
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Post by grampa on Aug 21, 2023 17:02:53 GMT
Quote; You can clearly see that the jaguar looks more husky, and has a noticeably bigger head. They appear to be of similar length (it's not easy to know because of the camera angle, but it sure looks like that to me). I know these are cubs, but it’s still a good representative of what these 2 cats will look like when they are adults.
IMO, the best way to compare two quadruped animals of different species is at equal HBL (head and body length). The leopard and the jaguar are pretty much equal in HBL. The jaguar's superior strength is clearly seen in his greater girth. How the leopard and cougar compare I'm unsure.
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