Cougar vs Jaguar: Closer than you think
May 31, 2023 22:45:30 GMT
Hardcastle, Musth, and 1 more like this
Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on May 31, 2023 22:45:30 GMT
VS
With all these months that have gone by, I should say I’m surprised that there isn’t a “Cougar vs Jaguar” thread. Antonio told me a while back that it would be cool if I made it, but back then I didn’t have the breathing space. Thankfully, now I do.
After reading many people’s posts on the “Cougar vs Mexican jaguar” thread on the Carnivora Forum: carnivora.net/cougar-v-mexican-jaguar-t7608.html, I have realised just how badly misinformed people are on this topic.
The general consensus is that the jaguar is a “much stockier, much more powerful cat and the cougar needs a MASSIVE size advantage to have a chance or to be able to beat the jaguar.”
But I think it’s time we re-evaluated our views on “Cougar vs Jaguar” and come to see that under certain circumstances, it might actually be closer than we previously thought.
In this thread, feel free to talk about whatever versions of either cat matched against the corresponding appropriate version of the other cat like “BC Cougar vs Pantanal Jaguar”, for example or “Mexican Jaguar vs Mexican Cougar” to make it interesting. You can also drop your thoughts on “Cougar vs Jaguar” in general.
Here’s mine:
I personally disagree with the widely accepted, though erroneous belief that the jaguar is pound for pound much stronger and therefore the cougar would need a massive size advantage to be able to compete.
The data and reports we have available don’t seem to agree with this. I don’t think there are any studies that talk about pound for pound strength among felines, so I think this claim is just something people kind of accepted without properly scrutinising, and not one that is rooted in any real investigation into the matter.
And what makes me question the jaguar being “pound for pound much stronger”? The lack of dominance over similar-sized cougars in places where they coexist. For me, this is the litmus test for the jaguar being “pound for pound much stronger.” This and nothing else.
If this “gigantic pound for pound difference in strength” is not reflected in interactions by dominance, then it’s safe to conclude that it’s a figment of the imagination.
It’s like you claim and insist that Substance A is an acid. Well then if you’re right, I should be able to take a blue litmus paper, put it into A and see the litmus change to red, shouldn’t I? But if, I don’t, then whatever A is, it’s not an acid. It’s that simple.
“Oh, you say the jaguar is much stronger at equal weights? Well then, show me the jaguar putting that “vast difference in power even at equal weights” to use by dominating the cougar.”
But no, what do we have? We have cougars and jaguars coexisting at similar sizes and you know what they’re doing? Giving each other respect. They both prefer to avoid running into the other. Whenever they meet, they just say “Hi, what’s up?” and they try not to get into any conflict.
And that’s supposed to be a jaguar that is “much stronger pound for pound.” The jaguars, the clients themselves LITERALLY disagree with their defence attorneys who keep saying “Jaguar – pound for pound strongest cat, no other cat comes close.”
The reason I insist that dominance is proof of superiority is because of a pattern we see among cats EVERYWHERE else in the world.
Wherever one cat is stronger than another, there is ALWAYS dominance: in Africa, we have lions dominating leopards, in Asia we have tigers dominating leopards, in the past when Javan tigers still existed, they dominated leopards on the island of Java. It’s like it’s impossible for 2 cats that are far apart in strength to coexist without there being dominance.
In the cat world, dominance is proof of superiority, and if we don’t see it but instead see mutual respect, then maybe it’s because there’s no clear cut superiority in physical strength? And what do we notice in the other cases where the stronger cat dominates the weaker one? That the stronger cat is ALWAYS much larger.
But in the case of jaguars and cougars at parity where we don’t see dominance, we notice that the cats are close in size.
This proves that a large size advantage is what gives one cat an edge over the other. Cats are TOO similar in anatomy and construction for there to be wide discrepancies in strength AT THE SAME WEIGHTS!
The lack of jaguar dominance is not the only thing the cougar supporter has, but accounts of the cougar actually emerging victorious over the jaguar:
• There have been reports from observers and indigenous people of pumas overcoming jaguars. In fact, a hunting guide observed jaguars almost trembling at the presence of a cougar, not being comfortable with the cougar’s “aura” : archive.org/details/pumalegendarylio0000tins (Page 64)
"EVEN THE MIGHTY JAGUAR IS NOT FULLY THE MASTER OF THE PUMA. Naturalist W.H. Hudson asserts that where the two species inhabit the same district in South America, THE PUMA IS THE PERSISTENT PERSECUTOR OF THE JAGUAR, FOLLOWING IT AND HARASSING IT UNTIL AN OPPORTUNITY OCCURS FOR AN ATTACK. The natives of Guatemala say that IN A FIGHT BETWEEN THE TWO THE PUMA CONQUERS THE JAGUAR. Victor Gonzales K., a hunting guide in Guatemala, on seven or eight occasions had jaguars answering his calls and COMING IN ANGRILY WHEN A PUMA LET ITS PRESENCE BE KNOWN. In each instance, THE JAGUAR STOPPED ANSWERING THE CALL AND DID NOT COME IN FOR THE REST OF THE NIGHT. MANY COMPETENT OBSERVERS in Central and South America agree that the husky jaguar is more powerful than the puma, but the latter is lean, wiry and more agile, accounting for the domination."
• Cougars defeat jaguars in FACE-TO-FACE FIGHTS: archive.org/details/cougar00danz (Pages 93-94)
"The jaguar is an accomplished traveller, and although it now makes only limited forays into the United States from Mexico, the potential for contact with the cougar still exists. Since the jaguar is a bigger and stronger cat than the cougar, enjoying a weight advantage of up to seventy-five pounds, the cougar would probably prefer avoidance over confrontation. Although we do not have much information as to what actually may happen when these two large cats meet, a great deal has been offered over the years in the realm of opinion: writers and other cougar ‘’experts’’ suggest that THE COUGAR WOULD EVENTUALLY WIN A BATTLE because of its “SUPERIOR SPEED AND ABILITY.’’
Naturalist in La Plata, by William H. Hudson (1929, 35) is frequently cited in support of the cougar-superiority theory. Hudson says he had often heard that the resident cougars of Argentina and Paraguay were the aggressors and that they would DEFEAT THE JAGUAR IN FACE-TO-FACE COMBAT; hunters had found that some jaguars they had killed had significant scarring on their backs, and IT WAS PRESUMED THAT THESE SCARS WERE THE RESULTS OF FIGHTS WITH COUGAR."
• Reports of cougars persecuting jaguars: archive.org/details/naturalistinlapl1892huds (Page where it reads 49 of 452 on the scroll)
• Another thing that disproves the idea of tigers, lions and jaguars being superior to cougars at equal weights is an account of a cougar fighting an AFRICAN LION, a fight that probably wasn’t even at parity but at A SIZE DISADVANTAGE and being able to keep up a fight and even somewhat dominate the lion. It happened in a zoo: The puma : legendary lion of the Americas
"Alertness and quickness may be the reasons that the puma CAN AND DOES DEFEND ITSELF SUCCESSFULLY AGAINST THE JAGUAR. An unusual incident that happened at the Hogle Zoological Garden in Salt Lake City dramatizes the agility of the puma confronted with what many persons would consider overwhelming odds. One accidentally got into the cage of an AFRICAN LION and a vicious battle resulted. Before the two were separated by attendants, the caretaker observed that the puma would strike the lion FOUR OR FIVE TIMES before the king of beasts could strike once. The caretaker felt that the PUMA WAS MUCH THE FASTER OF THE TWO."
All of this nullifies the jaguar being pound for pound much stronger. Because we have evidence of interactions and don’t see jaguars dominating, in fact we actually see the opposite, cougars dominating. So, to hell with what people say.
Pantherines have failed to kill cougars even at a size disadvantage, cougars can hold their own against jaguars of similar size, so it’s crystal clear that cougars aren’t inferior to pantherines at parity.
So, you shouldn’t be surprised that I believe a large BC cougar is comparable to the average male Pantanal jaguar, both of which would weigh roughly 100 kg.
For me, “BC cougar vs Pantanal jaguar” at parity is a close fight, and I say it can go either way.
I want this to be interactive.
If you have different ideas, spit them out. Also tell of how you think jaguars might be different from cougars in their relationships with other animals.
Like, let’s imagine we replaced all the cougars in North America with similar-sized jaguars: like for every cougar in North America, we replaced it with a cougar that weighed the same mass.
How do you think the jaguar would fare against the cougar’s competitors? How do you think the jaguar would do against black bears or wolf packs? Would they hunt moose better or more frequently?
Do you think Pantanal jaguars taken to North America would prey on healthy adult bison? It’s just an “if you think the jaguar is better or superior to the cougar in these regards, by how much would you say?” kind of thing.
There are some arguments about the jaguar being superior in big game predation, but I think cougars have an answer for everything jaguars have done:
Jaguars kill cattle?
Oh, cougars have killed cattle MORE THAN NINE TIMES THEIR WEIGHT, alongside elk and horses that outweigh them by the same amount: archive.org/details/floridawildlife10-1950 (Page 32)
"The panther is a very powerful animal. There are records of its killing elk, horses, and cattle MORE THAN NINE TIMES ITS WEIGHT. Not only does it FREQUENTLY kill animals MUCH LARGER THAN ITSELF, but it sometimes DRAGS THEM FOR CONSIDERABLE DISTANCES."
Jaguars kill caimans?
• Cougars have killed alligators: Florida Wildlife, October 1950 : Florida. Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission: (Page 32)
"Two trappers in the Everglades reported finding the remains of a SIX FOOT alligator killed by a panther."
• Cougar kills 2.692 m alligator: www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https%3A%2F%2Fbioone.org%2Fjournals%2Fsoutheastern-naturalist%2Fvolume-9%2Fissue-4%2F058.009.0420%2FPredation-of-a-Large-Alligator-by-a-Florida-Panther%2F10.1656%2F058.009.0420.full&ved=2ahUKEwjNoP75peL6AhVoiv0HHUBhBU0QFnoECBIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2M-qJGbFDiL3ii2Sy0sEgv
Jaguars can carry a cow across a river?
Well, this is a less impressive feat, but a cougar can carry a mule across a trench partly-filled with water: archive.org/details/biostor-94297 (Page 13 on the scroll)
"It is VERY DESTRUCTIVE TO THE CATTLE FARMS, and it is so powerful an animal, that I have been told by an eye witness, that it KILLED A MULE and DRAGGED IT ACROSS A TRENCH TO THE OPPOSITE SIDE, although the trench WAS NOT QUITE FULL OF WATER, and the Puma had to DRAG IT A FEW FEET UP HILL, AFTER IT LANDED WITH ITS PREY ON THE OTHER SIDE."
I haven’t seen anything about cougars killing anacondas yet, but I’d count on a large and persistent individual being able to.
So, I’d say they’re pretty even in predation feats, ultimately.
Hardcastle , you said this on the Carnivora thread:
"50 kg adult male mexican jaguar vs 80 kg canadian cougar is one match I'd like to see in real life, I can't shake this odd feeling the jaguar would still win, and if the cougar would win I'd like to see how it managed to subdue such a powerful ball of explosive muscle. My head says surely the cougar would win, but yeah I dunno, maybe size isn't everything."
That was about 3 years ago, so do you still think this, or have your thoughts changed over the years from what they were before?
I also don’t think using how they perform against bulldogs at parity would be a reliable indicator of how a fight between cougars and jaguars at parity would go.
I think the jaguar is just better at fighting dogs at parity, not that because it beats them and they in turn beat cougars, therefore they (jaguars) would beat cougars at parity. I don’t think it works like that.
But, anyways, what does everyone else think? Bolushi , @ling CoolJohnson , Wyatt , Musth , ophio , oldgreengrolar , Methane
