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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jun 12, 2023 13:14:49 GMT
We’d better be talking a peak British Columbian or Patagonian Tom versus something like a Mexican jaguar in this thread. I’m afraid it doesn’t hold water otherwise. Cougar kills male elk: ibb.co/8xHtb8zYou also have the (staged?) instance of Comfylounge’s old signature. Elk are the most impressive animal I know of cougars killing. For jaguars, probably cattle, followed by tapirs and black caiman. There isn’t a lot of megafauna in South America tbh. The difference between a "PEAK" male BC or Patagonian cougar and a Mexican jaguar would be vast. So vast, that the jaguar would be easily overcome. You're talking about a 90 to 100 kg cougar vs a 50 to 60 kg jaguar? Nah, that's clearly a mismatch in the mountain lion’s favour. This is one match that certainly holds no water. A closer match would be between both cats at similar masses, maybe a big BC cougar against the average male Pantanal jaguar or a fight between the Mexican versions of both cats. Plus, elk are most definitely not the best things they have killed. Bull moose probably are (will show the evidence if necessary). The best thing they CAN (have the potential to, I'm not saying "have") kill is American bison weighing between 500 to 700 kg, provided the cougars we are talking about are in the 80-100 kg range. And I have 3 different answers on Quora that perfectly prove and explain that. |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jun 12, 2023 13:16:29 GMT
If necessary, I will show the Quora answers too, even though I've already ended the "Cougar vs Bison" topic forever. But, I'm still curious about what people have to say.
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Wyatt
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Post by Wyatt on Jun 12, 2023 13:27:07 GMT
We’d better be talking a peak British Columbian or Patagonian Tom versus something like a Mexican jaguar in this thread. I’m afraid it doesn’t hold water otherwise. Cougar kills male elk: ibb.co/8xHtb8zYou also have the (staged?) instance of Comfylounge’s old signature. Elk are the most impressive animal I know of cougars killing. For jaguars, probably cattle, followed by tapirs and black caiman. There isn’t a lot of megafauna in South America tbh. The difference between a "PEAK" male BC or Patagonian cougar and a Mexican jaguar would be vast. So vast, that the jaguar would be easily overcome. You're talking about a 90 to 100 kg cougar vs a 50 to 60 kg jaguar? Nah, that's clearly a mismatch in the mountain lion’s favour. This is one match that certainly holds no water. A closer match would be between both cats at similar masses, maybe a big BC cougar against the average male Pantanal jaguar or a fight between the Mexican versions of both cats. Plus, elk are most definitely not the best things they have killed. Bull moose probably are (will show the evidence if necessary). The best thing they CAN (have the potential to, I'm not saying "have") kill is American bison weighing between 500 to 700 kg, provided the cougars we are talking about are in the 80-100 kg range. And I have 3 different answers on Quora that perfectly prove and explain that. Well im done arguing as if you’re set on that so badly I can’t do much. Although, on the topic of wolf vs cougar i’d like to clarify some things. 1. Do you believe a large male Mackenzie Valley/Northwestern wolf could possibly overpower a female cougar? Or even a small male cougar? 2. (Unrelated) an American Bison is actually one of the most formidable bovines compared to cape buffalo? 3. That cattle ranchers are not even considering pumas a threat anymore, and they don’t have as much persecution as other predators except for sheep farmers. 4. That many of these leopards are way more robust than a cougar is, and even some snow leopards are more robust than any cougar. 5. Impressive elk predation is usually done by large cougars. 6. Cougars lose to bears where they are sympiatric. |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jun 12, 2023 13:58:49 GMT
The difference between a "PEAK" male BC or Patagonian cougar and a Mexican jaguar would be vast. So vast, that the jaguar would be easily overcome. You're talking about a 90 to 100 kg cougar vs a 50 to 60 kg jaguar? Nah, that's clearly a mismatch in the mountain lion’s favour. This is one match that certainly holds no water. A closer match would be between both cats at similar masses, maybe a big BC cougar against the average male Pantanal jaguar or a fight between the Mexican versions of both cats. Plus, elk are most definitely not the best things they have killed. Bull moose probably are (will show the evidence if necessary). The best thing they CAN (have the potential to, I'm not saying "have") kill is American bison weighing between 500 to 700 kg, provided the cougars we are talking about are in the 80-100 kg range. And I have 3 different answers on Quora that perfectly prove and explain that. Well im done arguing as if you’re set on that so badly I can’t do much. Although, on the topic of wolf vs cougar i’d like to clarify some things. 1. Do you believe a large male Mackenzie Valley/Northwestern wolf could possibly overpower a female cougar? Or even a small male cougar? 2. (Unrelated) an American Bison is actually one of the most formidable bovines compared to cape buffalo? 3. That cattle ranchers are not even considering pumas a threat anymore, and they don’t have as much persecution as other predators except for sheep farmers. 4. That many of these leopards are way more robust than a cougar is, and even some snow leopards are more robust than any cougar. 5. Impressive elk predation is usually done by large cougars. 6. Cougars lose to bears where they are sympiatric. Let me respond to you in order: 1) A female cougar can very well be 24 kg and be an adult, I've seen a study where that was the case. Healthy puma by the way, the same way the smallest jaguaresses can weigh 36 kg in some regions. The biggest wolves in Russia can approach 80 kg. So, if that's what you mean by "Large wolf vs female cougar or SMALL male cougar", then yes, the wolf wins. I'm not saying the wolf needs that much of a size advantage to win, just that I believe the wolf needs a size advantage. Even at parity, I believe the cougar should win because it's more compactly built, having a stronger skeletal structure and more powerful muscles that are greater in fast twitch content than a wolf's, has claws that can cause serious damage (people sometimes undermine the effectiveness of feline claws), and it's legendary agility, an asset that proved useful in a fight against an AFRICAN LION for crying out loud. Now, someone might want to call that cougar lucky, but I think it's pretty common knowledge to like literally anybody (at least anybody with a brain) that a wolf (any wolf) that enters into a lion’s enclosure is NEVER coming out alive. It's not even putting up any kind of fight, let alone coming out alive. So, generally Cougar >>>> Wolf, but a wolf with a good size advantage can win. 2) Yes, I know the American bison is the planet's most powerful cattle species and by extension the world's most powerful bovine (as cattle species are the most powerful in the bovine family), but I don’t think it's formidability in "Cattle vs Cattle" or "Bovine vs Bovine" fight means much from a predator’s point of view. For example, a bison would low-diff a gaur, but I do believe that they are the same thing from a tiger’s viewpoint in the sense that a tiger would kill them as easily as each other. 3) Quit with all this "cattle farmers don't take cougars seriously" thingy. It's a thorn in my side. I literally posted a page that says "it is VERY DESTRUCTIVE to the cattle farms", so you don't have a point. Do you mind showing any evidence that snow leopards pose a threat greater than or even equal to what cougars pose to cattle? 4) Leopards are not "way more robust than cougars." Anyone with well functioning eyes can see that. "Leopard vs Cougar" is about the closest of fights between big cats that you can get, arguably even closer than "Tiger vs Lion" seeing as the percentage size difference between cougars and leopards is about 5% in the cougar’s favour, while that between tigers and lions can be up to 25%. Size/muscle mass is a key element in a fight between big cats, and usually (though I will not say every time) the one with the greater amount goes home with the W. "Tigers vs Lion" is more legendary (because they are more popular and are the strongest cats), but "Leopard vs Cougar" is closer. Notice the vocabulary difference. Snow leopards are "more robust than ANY cougar"? I doubt I've ever seen a more delusional statement. Dude, 75 kg is a GIGANTIC, HARD TO COME BY, SHOWS UP ONLY ONCE IN 2 MILLION YEARS snow leopard. In some cougar populations, 90 kg is VERY COMMON. And the biggest known cougar weighed 125 kg AFTER ITS INTESTINES HAD BEEN REMOVED. That’s almost double the snow leopard’s size, so what in the devil’s name are you talking about? 5) That’s a lie. Female cougars can take down large bull elk, and in Idaho both male and female cougars kill bull elk that weigh seven times as much as the female puma. (Will show the evidence if needed). 6) That's to be expected, the bears have a gigantic size advantage. Why are you making it sound like there's any surprise in that? It's the same way snow leopards are subordinate to wolves, leopards and maybe tigers too, I think. |
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Wyatt
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Post by Wyatt on Jun 12, 2023 14:22:53 GMT
Well im done arguing as if you’re set on that so badly I can’t do much. Although, on the topic of wolf vs cougar i’d like to clarify some things. 1. Do you believe a large male Mackenzie Valley/Northwestern wolf could possibly overpower a female cougar? Or even a small male cougar? 2. (Unrelated) an American Bison is actually one of the most formidable bovines compared to cape buffalo? 3. That cattle ranchers are not even considering pumas a threat anymore, and they don’t have as much persecution as other predators except for sheep farmers. 4. That many of these leopards are way more robust than a cougar is, and even some snow leopards are more robust than any cougar. 5. Impressive elk predation is usually done by large cougars. 6. Cougars lose to bears where they are sympiatric. Let me respond to you in order: 1) A female cougar can very well be 24 kg and be an adult, I've seen a study where that was the case. Healthy puma by the way, the same way the smallest jaguaresses can weigh 36 kg in some regions. The biggest wolves in Russia can approach 80 kg. So, if that's what you mean by "Large wolf vs female cougar or SMALL male cougar", then yes, the wolf wins. I'm not saying the wolf needs that much of a size advantage to win, just that I believe the wolf needs a size advantage. Even at parity, I believe the cougar should win because it's more compactly built, having a stronger skeletal structure and more powerful muscles that are greater in fast twitch content than a wolf's, has claws that can cause serious damage (people sometimes undermine the effectiveness of feline claws), and it's legendary agility, an asset that proved useful in a fight against an AFRICAN LION for crying out loud. Now, someone might want to call that cougar lucky, but I think it's pretty common knowledge to like literally anybody (at least anybody with a brain) that a wolf (any wolf) that enters into a lion’s enclosure is NEVER coming out alive. It's not even putting up any kind of fight, let alone coming out alive. So, generally Cougar >>>> Wolf, but a wolf with a good size advantage can win. 2) Yes, I know the American bison is the planet's most powerful cattle species and by extension the world's most powerful bovine (as cattle species are the most powerful in the bovine family), but I don’t think it's formidability in "Cattle vs Cattle" or "Bovine vs Bovine" fight means much from a predator’s point of view. For example, a bison would low-diff a gaur, but I do believe that they are the same thing from a tiger’s viewpoint in the sense that a tiger would kill them as easily as each other. 3) Quit with all this "cattle farmers don't take cougars seriously" thingy. It's a thorn in my side. I literally posted a page that says "it is VERY DESTRUCTIVE to the cattle farms", so you don't have a point. Do you mind showing any evidence that snow leopards pose a threat greater than or even equal to what cougars pose to cattle? 4) Leopards are not "way more robust than cougars." Anyone with well functioning eyes can see that. "Leopard vs Cougar" is about the closest of fights between big cats that you can get, arguably even closer than "Tiger vs Lion" seeing as the percentage size difference between cougars and leopards is about 5% in the cougar’s favour, while that between tigers and lions can be up to 25%. Size/muscle mass is a key element in a fight between big cats, and usually (though I will not say every time) the one with the greater amount goes home with the W. "Tigers vs Lion" is more legendary (because they are more popular and are the strongest cats), but "Leopard vs Cougar" is closer. Notice the vocabulary difference. Snow leopards are "more robust than ANY cougar"? I doubt I've ever seen a more delusional statement. Dude, 75 kg is a GIGANTIC, HARD TO COME BY, SHOWS UP ONLY ONCE IN 2 MILLION YEARS snow leopard. In some cougar populations, 90 kg is VERY COMMON. And the biggest known cougar weighed 125 kg AFTER ITS INTESTINES HAD BEEN REMOVED. That’s almost double the snow leopard’s size, so what in the devil’s name are you talking about? 5) That’s a lie. Female cougars can take down large bull elk, and in Idaho both male and female cougars kill bull elk that weigh seven times as much as the female puma. (Will show the evidence if needed). 6) That's to be expected, the bears have a gigantic size advantage. Why are you making it sound like there's any surprise in that? It's the same way snow leopards are subordinate to wolves, leopards and maybe tigers too, I think. 1. Don’t have much to say here. 2. Yes you acknowledge that. You acknowledge bison have massive size advantages that can be challenging for wolves or even (debatably) gripping dogs. Although I would favor a smaller gripping dog due to their quick evasion along with their strong punches and impressive predation feats. But a bison may cost a challenge for a huge gripping dog that can’t evade easily. So how do you imagine the cougar? 3. Yes, family cow forum was afraid of hypotheticals. They couldn’t name anything other than a dairy cow or a calf being killed. I am about to ranch my own livestock in the future, bison, maybe cattle and poultry. I would hypothetically move to cougar country and not even have any worry a single bit. 4. I have no proof snow leopards can take down cattle and i’ve never argued so. The reason they are hated by many ranchers is because of domestic oxes and horses they take down. For some reason this is enough to send them off. Also, keep in mind that snow leopards are more short and stocky. So robusticity is very possible. 5. Okay but I mean most impressive predation feats are by large cougars. 6. I brought it up because many cougar fans like to say “cougar beats bear! must preserve cougar! rrrrrr!” |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jun 12, 2023 14:37:44 GMT
Wyatt 2) I've already explained the "Cougar vs Bison" thing in THREE answers on Quora. Until you read ALL of them, we have nothing to discuss. I'm not going to repeat myself here. 3) Yes, calves are still the regular prey. That's how it is for many predators (the young ones of very dangerous herbivores being preferred), but adults are not TOTALLY invulnerable. Feel free to move into cougar territory and not worry, cougars already have their natural prey for them to eat,so they have no business showing up on your ranch. 4) So, if you have no evidence of your own beloved felines approaching cougars in feats, why have you made making cougars look incapable or "unimpressive" your sacred duty, a gospel that you must take to every corner of the earth? Huh? Huh? 5) Obviously, the bigger the cougar, the better the feat. But saying cougars have to be BIG by cougar standards to kill healthy adult bull elk is remarkably stupid. Even females can and do kill healthy bull elk. Colein posted SEVERAL cases in one page in the "Cougar vs Leopard" thread. Feel free to glance through. Though, I should say it's a risky business, and cougar indeed have gotten killed MANY times. 6) Sure, bears are above cougars in strength, but sometimes cougars do put a stand against black bears, and even more amazing, brown bears.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2023 14:58:33 GMT
We’d better be talking a peak British Columbian or Patagonian Tom versus something like a Mexican jaguar in this thread. I’m afraid it doesn’t hold water otherwise. Cougar kills male elk: ibb.co/8xHtb8zYou also have the (staged?) instance of Comfylounge’s old signature. Elk are the most impressive animal I know of cougars killing. For jaguars, probably cattle, followed by tapirs and black caiman. There isn’t a lot of megafauna in South America tbh. A closer match would be between both cats at similar masses, maybe a big BC cougar against the average male Pantanal jaguar It wouldn't be close. It's literally a common well-known fact that Jaguars are p4p stronger than all cats. That includes Cougars. The Jaguar holds virtually every advantage over the Cougar. In fact I think you're being bias towards the Cougar because it's your favourite animal. And surely if a large Cougar can "supposedly" go toe-and-toe with a Jaguar then shouldn't a Leopard be able to as well? |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jun 12, 2023 15:05:03 GMT
A closer match would be between both cats at similar masses, maybe a big BC cougar against the average male Pantanal jaguar It wouldn't be close. It's literally a common well-known fact that Jaguars are p4p stronger than all cats. That includes Cougars. The Jaguar holds virtually every advantage over the Cougar. In fact I think you're being bias towards the Cougar because it's your favourite animal. And surely if a large Cougar can "supposedly" go toe-and-toe with a Jaguar then shouldn't a Leopard be able to as well? Please provide the study where it is proven that the jaguar is pound for pound the strongest of all cats. Quote the scientific article that explicitly states that and that shows the means by which the jaguar's proportional strength was determined. If you can’t, then nothing you say is relevant. I already disproved that in the first post in this thread. That was the FIRST thing I established in the thread. I've shown quite a number of sources regarding cougar-jaguar and cougar-pantherine interactions. You have yet to show a SINGLE one where they were of similar size. I'm being biased because I'm presenting evidence for my statements and you are not? Yes, a leopard and cougar would do well against an equal-sized jaguar. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2023 15:07:04 GMT
It wouldn't be close. It's literally a common well-known fact that Jaguars are p4p stronger than all cats. That includes Cougars. The Jaguar holds virtually every advantage over the Cougar. In fact I think you're being bias towards the Cougar because it's your favourite animal. And surely if a large Cougar can "supposedly" go toe-and-toe with a Jaguar then shouldn't a Leopard be able to as well? Please provide the study where it is proven that the jaguar is pound for pound much stronger. If you can’t, then nothing you say is relevant. I already disproved that in the first post in this thread. That was the FIRST thing I established in the thread. I've shown quite a number of sources regarding cougar-jaguar and cougar-pantherine interactions. You have yet to show a SINGLE one where they were of similar size. I'm being biased because I'm presenting evidence for my statements and you are not? Yes, a leopard and cougar would do well against an equal-sized jaguar. LOL. I literally posted the study above regarding big cat robusticity. The Jaguar was numero uno. Not to mention it also has the stronger jaws and larger build. |
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Wyatt
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Post by Wyatt on Jun 12, 2023 15:07:17 GMT
It wouldn't be close. It's literally a common well-known fact that Jaguars are p4p stronger than all cats. That includes Cougars. The Jaguar holds virtually every advantage over the Cougar. In fact I think you're being bias towards the Cougar because it's your favourite animal. And surely if a large Cougar can "supposedly" go toe-and-toe with a Jaguar then shouldn't a Leopard be able to as well? Please provide the study where it is proven that the jaguar is pound for pound much stronger. If you can’t, then nothing you say is relevant. I already disproved that in the first post in this thread. That was the FIRST thing I established in the thread. I've shown quite a number of sources regarding cougar-jaguar and cougar-pantherine interactions. You have yet to show a SINGLE one where they were of similar size. I'm being biased because I'm presenting evidence for my statements and you are not? Yes, a leopard and cougar would do well against an equal-sized jaguar. Fucking woah Supercat quit getting fucking pissy towards everyone in the fucking forum. Fucking hell. You cut this shit now or you’ll get fucking payback. Got it? |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jun 12, 2023 15:09:42 GMT
Please provide the study where it is proven that the jaguar is pound for pound much stronger. If you can’t, then nothing you say is relevant. I already disproved that in the first post in this thread. That was the FIRST thing I established in the thread. I've shown quite a number of sources regarding cougar-jaguar and cougar-pantherine interactions. You have yet to show a SINGLE one where they were of similar size. I'm being biased because I'm presenting evidence for my statements and you are not? Yes, a leopard and cougar would do well against an equal-sized jaguar. LOL. I literally posted the study above regarding big cat robusticity. The Jaguar was numero uno. Not to mention it also has the stronger jaws and larger build. I'm not very sure about using a study as evidence. A study is like theory, real life interactions are like practical. What we have in REAL LIFE is these 2 cats coexisting when their body masses are similar and neither of them fearing the other. Do you really think a jaguar would be thinking twice about fighting an animal that it can EASILY overcome? That's the question you should answer. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2023 15:10:07 GMT
The difference in head-size...   |
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Wyatt
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Post by Wyatt on Jun 12, 2023 15:10:45 GMT
LOL. I literally posted the study above regarding big cat robusticity. The Jaguar was numero uno. Not to mention it also has the stronger jaws and larger build. I'm not very sure about using a study as evidence. A study is like theory, real life interactions are like practical. What we have in REAL LIFE is these 2 cats coexisting when their body masses are similar and neither of them fearing the other. Do you really think a jaguar would be thinking twice about fighting an animal that it can EASILY overcome? That's the question you should answer. 🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️ |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2023 15:10:56 GMT
LOL. I literally posted the study above regarding big cat robusticity. The Jaguar was numero uno. Not to mention it also has the stronger jaws and larger build. I'm not very sure about using a study as evidence. what |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jun 12, 2023 15:12:39 GMT
The difference in head-size... This doesn’t look like at parity. Come on! Can you name this region on the map? |
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