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Post by grippingwhiteness on Sept 15, 2023 22:25:18 GMT
Well we have seen what happens when a fierce male cougar confronts a dogo solo, not going to end well. That's probably why they use baying dogs in areas where cougars can get powerful, too risky for the chances to meet a strong male that would defeat the quarry. A female won't though. Looks like a female also visually smaller than the dogo too in the vid. By the way I've seen you on bestiary defending a picture I don't have right now as evidence of dogos hunting larger pumas - you know that those dogos didn't do anything to that cougar right? The guts of the cougar are very visible and the dogos (and those are pups too, except one is the mother I guess) are totally unscated and way smaller than that cat, I bet anything that none of those dogs, even together, would be a match for that big cougar to be fair. Yes, you'd want bay dogs if you're hunting amongst 68kg cougars. If a Dogo or Dogal ends up trying to fight a "Dark" or "El Loco" it's just not a viable practice since the catch dog will be killed instantly, if there's multiple catch dogs odds are they all die, and the hunt abandoned. Bay dogs are good because they allow you to pick and choose what your catch dog mixes it up with. You mean the image of the Dogos with scratches on their head next to a cougar with its entrails visible? To me it sounds like the Dogos caught the cat and the cat was stabbed, hence the entrails being visible. In hindsight that doesn't make so much sense since you'd want to stab it in the heart but could've been reckless, dunno. For the record I don't recall vouching for the validity of that picture, but don't see a reason why it wouldn't be legit? The Dogos are definitely legit, they've got scratches. Also wasn't using it as evidence of Dogos being used to hunt larger pumas... in fact I don't post that picture often at all. The best evidence for that is the video where the cougar is subjugated by a few Dogos and some Galgo Patagonico-esque dogs, and fucks up a Dogo's muzzle in the process. There's also "the other video" which is similar setting but 100x worse dogs. The forbidden fruit, but that looks like a 60kg cat. No I'm talking about one where there's the cougar lying dead, with guts exposed, and dogo pups and a female dogo smaller than the cat side by side with it |
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Post by grippingwhiteness on Sept 15, 2023 22:47:51 GMT
The most impressive cat feat to me would be the jaguar that beat multiple apbts in a pit fight, because they were probably fighting dogs. I think it was 4 at once? It was some case where it was set up by some drug lord guy in Brazil. The leopard that beat 2 boarhounds (I think at once, you disagree) in the circus would be up there. Because again those are legit dogs whose job it was to tame big cats that were spazzing out. The jaguar beating Hercules the fighting bulldog is impressive to me too, again, the fact it is definitely a very legit dog makes it way way better than any of these cases where we don't know. Even if its a small cat like an ocelot or a bobcat, the possibility of the dog being a pampered pet means it could be absolutely nothing. Pampered wuss pet is actually the lowest of the low, lower than abused by far. Hence why the pampered wuss african lion got reemed out by 30 lbs bulldogs. Pampered wuss is totally completely debilitating. The impressive cat feats to me are the ones where the dogs definitely weren't pampered wusses. Those are few and far between. I'm less impressed than you are by these hunting videos where a cat is being mauled by hunting dogs and maybe manages to get damage on one or two of the dogs. Its kind of cool and noble because the poor cat is being assailed by multiple dogs and and a guy is there its unfair and etc etc, it might be satisfying justice, but emotions aside it is not actually impressive from a coldly analytical perspective of combative prowess. Temporarily doing a little damage isn't actually winning. I've seen coyotes and foxes do the same, when being attacked by a pack of big tough dogs, it is wrong to get carried away and be like "well... if it was 1 dog imagine how much the fox would kick ass", no it would just die more quickly actually. That little opportunistic attack in the messy frenzy of the hunt while it was being mauled wasn't as significant as it might appear. Even if the dog maybe whines or screams in pain, it says nothing about a fight to me. Some of the predation feats of leopards on dogs have been impressive. A wolfhound in Africa, again was likely at least a rugged farm dog if not a serious hunting dog. That is legit. A hardy hunting bull terrier gets snatched in one of the old 1800s books I like, can't remember which one off hand. Then the leopard dragging the alabai it killed, an alabai bigger than it. That was impressive. But yeah to me the jaguar against hercules and the other jaguar against multiple apbts and the circus leopard killing 2 boarhounds. They'd be my top 3 cat feats against good gripping dogs. How impressive do you think the cougar defeating Caru case is compared to Herkules in the San Francisco fight? I'm not using the Tupac one because there's no images available but the cougar was described to be large and fierce one and definitely had a size advantage and was likely a 130 lb cat again a 100 lb dogo. Caru case is very interesting, we have pictures and we know the weight of the dogo was 36 kg and the cougar looks perfectly the same size and at best slightly larger. I would scale it up higher than Herkules to be fair. I think it can be counted as a lower size parity fight, just like the pawtrapped cougar beating the attacking same sized dogo. There's also the likely 120 lb leopard defeating and killing that probably larger Alangu mastiff in Pakistan in a brutal fight . To me whining a lot and screaming a lot means something in a fight - we can agree to disagree, obviously, but I've finished reading the book of "Thirty years with flighting dogs" and I've just self-established a guess on the matter. I am not claiming obviously that it's always the case, but even the most game-bred apbts used to whine and whimper. To be fair I was of this very opinion from the beginning, I think that there's no creature with a nervous system similar to ours or animals that is perfectly able to 100% neutralise pain - but I was actually very curious to read the 30+ matches between game dogs to see if that's true. Interestingly, usually the moment when they started whimpering coincidentally overlapped with the "refuse to scratch" moment. At least 3 cases like these if I remember correctly. I think a dog whimpering and a dog not whimpering (yes, some game bred apbts in the same book suffered the same type of damage and didn't even make a single noise, reportedly) show two differences - the keeping up with the pain. Sometimes pain might make the dog temporarily cur out and that's the moment that in a fight , if the opponent wants to go on the offensive, it can do that a bit more easily now that the other dog is momentarily "stunned" by the pain it made it scream (it takes a good amount of hard work to make a non cull dog to scream, doesn't it? The weak point seems to be always the nose by the way). This is my take on the matter- I can also a bit tell from personal experience in boxing . This is the boxer killed by the ocelot, how do you classify it ? To me, looks pretty pet boxer  By the way I'll answer you on the cougar skull case. That cougar skull of 271 mm (largest ine reported so far) belonged to a ... 155 lb of 70 kg male. Not even the largest cougar of 227 lbs has a skull as large . |
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Post by Bolushi on Sept 16, 2023 1:16:35 GMT
Yes, you'd want bay dogs if you're hunting amongst 68kg cougars. If a Dogo or Dogal ends up trying to fight a "Dark" or "El Loco" it's just not a viable practice since the catch dog will be killed instantly, if there's multiple catch dogs odds are they all die, and the hunt abandoned. Bay dogs are good because they allow you to pick and choose what your catch dog mixes it up with. You mean the image of the Dogos with scratches on their head next to a cougar with its entrails visible? To me it sounds like the Dogos caught the cat and the cat was stabbed, hence the entrails being visible. In hindsight that doesn't make so much sense since you'd want to stab it in the heart but could've been reckless, dunno. For the record I don't recall vouching for the validity of that picture, but don't see a reason why it wouldn't be legit? The Dogos are definitely legit, they've got scratches. Also wasn't using it as evidence of Dogos being used to hunt larger pumas... in fact I don't post that picture often at all. The best evidence for that is the video where the cougar is subjugated by a few Dogos and some Galgo Patagonico-esque dogs, and fucks up a Dogo's muzzle in the process. There's also "the other video" which is similar setting but 100x worse dogs. The forbidden fruit, but that looks like a 60kg cat. No I'm talking about one where there's the cougar lying dead, with guts exposed, and dogo pups and a female dogo smaller than the cat side by side with it Sounds like what I'm referring to as well, so why no? |
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Post by Bolushi on Sept 16, 2023 1:17:33 GMT
The most impressive cat feat to me would be the jaguar that beat multiple apbts in a pit fight, because they were probably fighting dogs. I think it was 4 at once? It was some case where it was set up by some drug lord guy in Brazil. The leopard that beat 2 boarhounds (I think at once, you disagree) in the circus would be up there. Because again those are legit dogs whose job it was to tame big cats that were spazzing out. The jaguar beating Hercules the fighting bulldog is impressive to me too, again, the fact it is definitely a very legit dog makes it way way better than any of these cases where we don't know. Even if its a small cat like an ocelot or a bobcat, the possibility of the dog being a pampered pet means it could be absolutely nothing. Pampered wuss pet is actually the lowest of the low, lower than abused by far. Hence why the pampered wuss african lion got reemed out by 30 lbs bulldogs. Pampered wuss is totally completely debilitating. The impressive cat feats to me are the ones where the dogs definitely weren't pampered wusses. Those are few and far between. I'm less impressed than you are by these hunting videos where a cat is being mauled by hunting dogs and maybe manages to get damage on one or two of the dogs. Its kind of cool and noble because the poor cat is being assailed by multiple dogs and and a guy is there its unfair and etc etc, it might be satisfying justice, but emotions aside it is not actually impressive from a coldly analytical perspective of combative prowess. Temporarily doing a little damage isn't actually winning. I've seen coyotes and foxes do the same, when being attacked by a pack of big tough dogs, it is wrong to get carried away and be like "well... if it was 1 dog imagine how much the fox would kick ass", no it would just die more quickly actually. That little opportunistic attack in the messy frenzy of the hunt while it was being mauled wasn't as significant as it might appear. Even if the dog maybe whines or screams in pain, it says nothing about a fight to me. Some of the predation feats of leopards on dogs have been impressive. A wolfhound in Africa, again was likely at least a rugged farm dog if not a serious hunting dog. That is legit. A hardy hunting bull terrier gets snatched in one of the old 1800s books I like, can't remember which one off hand. Then the leopard dragging the alabai it killed, an alabai bigger than it. That was impressive. But yeah to me the jaguar against hercules and the other jaguar against multiple apbts and the circus leopard killing 2 boarhounds. They'd be my top 3 cat feats against good gripping dogs. How impressive do you think the cougar defeating Caru case is compared to Herkules in the San Francisco fight? I'm not using the Tupac one because there's no images available but the cougar was described to be large and fierce one and definitely had a size advantage and was likely a 130 lb cat again a 100 lb dogo. Caru case is very interesting, we have pictures and we know the weight of the dogo was 36 kg and the cougar looks perfectly the same size and at best slightly larger. I would scale it up higher than Herkules to be fair. I think it can be counted as a lower size parity fight, just like the pawtrapped cougar beating the attacking same sized dogo. There's also the likely 120 lb leopard defeating and killing that probably larger Alangu mastiff in Pakistan in a brutal fight . To me whining a lot and screaming a lot means something in a fight - we can agree to disagree, obviously, but I've finished reading the book of "Thirty years with flighting dogs" and I've just self-established a guess on the matter. I am not claiming obviously that it's always the case, but even the most game-bred apbts used to whine and whimper. To be fair I was of this very opinion from the beginning, I think that there's no creature with a nervous system similar to ours or animals that is perfectly able to 100% neutralise pain - but I was actually very curious to read the 30+ matches between game dogs to see if that's true. Interestingly, usually the moment when they started whimpering coincidentally overlapped with the "refuse to scratch" moment. At least 3 cases like these if I remember correctly. I think a dog whimpering and a dog not whimpering (yes, some game bred apbts in the same book suffered the same type of damage and didn't even make a single noise, reportedly) show two differences - the keeping up with the pain. Sometimes pain might make the dog temporarily cur out and that's the moment that in a fight , if the opponent wants to go on the offensive, it can do that a bit more easily now that the other dog is momentarily "stunned" by the pain it made it scream (it takes a good amount of hard work to make a non cull dog to scream, doesn't it? The weak point seems to be always the nose by the way). This is my take on the matter- I can also a bit tell from personal experience in boxing . This is the boxer killed by the ocelot, how do you classify it ? To me, looks pretty pet boxer View AttachmentBy the way I'll answer you on the cougar skull case. That cougar skull of 271 mm (largest ine reported so far) belonged to a ... 155 lb of 70 kg male. Not even the largest cougar of 227 lbs has a skull as large . Wasn't that cougar 9kgs bigger than the Dogo per your estimations? The Dogo is put at a weight of 36kgs and we estimated the cougar to be 45kgs. |
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Post by grippingwhiteness on Sept 16, 2023 23:53:44 GMT
How impressive do you think the cougar defeating Caru case is compared to Herkules in the San Francisco fight? I'm not using the Tupac one because there's no images available but the cougar was described to be large and fierce one and definitely had a size advantage and was likely a 130 lb cat again a 100 lb dogo. Caru case is very interesting, we have pictures and we know the weight of the dogo was 36 kg and the cougar looks perfectly the same size and at best slightly larger. I would scale it up higher than Herkules to be fair. I think it can be counted as a lower size parity fight, just like the pawtrapped cougar beating the attacking same sized dogo. There's also the likely 120 lb leopard defeating and killing that probably larger Alangu mastiff in Pakistan in a brutal fight . To me whining a lot and screaming a lot means something in a fight - we can agree to disagree, obviously, but I've finished reading the book of "Thirty years with flighting dogs" and I've just self-established a guess on the matter. I am not claiming obviously that it's always the case, but even the most game-bred apbts used to whine and whimper. To be fair I was of this very opinion from the beginning, I think that there's no creature with a nervous system similar to ours or animals that is perfectly able to 100% neutralise pain - but I was actually very curious to read the 30+ matches between game dogs to see if that's true. Interestingly, usually the moment when they started whimpering coincidentally overlapped with the "refuse to scratch" moment. At least 3 cases like these if I remember correctly. I think a dog whimpering and a dog not whimpering (yes, some game bred apbts in the same book suffered the same type of damage and didn't even make a single noise, reportedly) show two differences - the keeping up with the pain. Sometimes pain might make the dog temporarily cur out and that's the moment that in a fight , if the opponent wants to go on the offensive, it can do that a bit more easily now that the other dog is momentarily "stunned" by the pain it made it scream (it takes a good amount of hard work to make a non cull dog to scream, doesn't it? The weak point seems to be always the nose by the way). This is my take on the matter- I can also a bit tell from personal experience in boxing . This is the boxer killed by the ocelot, how do you classify it ? To me, looks pretty pet boxer View AttachmentBy the way I'll answer you on the cougar skull case. That cougar skull of 271 mm (largest ine reported so far) belonged to a ... 155 lb of 70 kg male. Not even the largest cougar of 227 lbs has a skull as large . Wasn't that cougar 9kgs bigger than the Dogo per your estimations? The Dogo is put at a weight of 36kgs and we estimated the cougar to be 45kgs. My original claim gave a range of 40-45 kg, looking better at images it looks more rightly around 40 kg as it doesn't look anything larger than the dogo actually. Still that was a badass cougar for defeating an experienced dogo by subduing it with its forelimbs while delivering a killer neck bite instead of a "win from bottom" you'd expect at lower sizes . |
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Post by s on Sept 21, 2023 13:03:29 GMT
I am first going to say that im not a biased cat fanatic and that i believe the only creatures in the weight range under 20kg that i think would win the vast majority of the time against such a robust canine as say a SBT are female Cape Leopards, Wolverines,Clouded Leopards,and possibly a large honey badger. For the entire Lynx genus and related felines are simply too gracile and the Dog is too robust. they don't not have the power to effectively skull bite a formidable creature that is proportioned in such a manner. Too slight, and their only way of winning would be to eviscerate the dogs abdomen with it's hind legs. Assuming it even has the power for that.
Going a range up. I could see a Cheetah beating a Pitbull, but Cheetahs are not big on killing other predators. The Cheetah can win here, but it would be in for an ugly grueling fight, and would more than likely take a serious beating. On the other hand at this range a female Snow Leopard/Male Cape Leopard should be expected to win against a Bulldog more often than not without excessive difficulty.
A Puma/Leopard is a tier above all of the aforementioned felines (except Snow Leopard). Honestly Dog fans should just take the L against these exponentially more formidable felines as if Leopards haven't already proven themselves capable against
far more challenging adversaries like Spotted Hyenas
Just accept the fact that dogs are inferior and over matched against the most formidable felines. Stick with the smaller ranges where Dogs do actually have primacy.
Now, i am not saying that 3 Dogos are needed for an Argentinan Puma and 7-8 for a 90kg+ Puma like ComfyLoungue claimed (lol), 8 is more than enough to kill a Pantanal Jaguar and give a good fight against even larger felines. 3-4 is enough for a huge 85kg+ Puma. Smaller than that is oveekill. It's more delusional to favor a cougar over 5+ dogos than favoring a single dogo over a cougar.
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Post by s on Sept 21, 2023 14:54:23 GMT
My arguments for supporting Puma are quite simple really
1 - Puma and Leopard are similar in strenght
2 - Leopards have proven their power against enemies much more formidable than a Dogo, like Spotted Hyenas
3 - Therefore, the roughly equal in strenght Puma should be able to defeat the Dogo. A far less powerful opponent than Spotted Hyena
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Post by s on Sept 21, 2023 14:55:45 GMT
Wondering if Bolushi or Dale are going to try argue Dogo Argentino would beat a Spotted Hyena lol
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Post by lincoln on Sept 21, 2023 15:00:02 GMT
Wondering if Bolushi or Dale are going to try argue Dogo Argentino would beat a Spotted Hyena lol A good dogo is a better fighter then a hyena but hyenas are super durable, that’s their main advantage imo, they can take damage like a mf |
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Post by Bolushi on Sept 21, 2023 19:16:38 GMT
What I'm taking from that is -
"Leopards like contest spotted hyenas y'know, spotted hyenas can like... skin warthogs. it's kind of like how dogos beat water buffalo in fights but better because it's... a hyena and just like... spotted hyenas so more powerful than dogo!!"
Also an SBT is overkill for all of those animals but especially the female cape leopard and the honey badger. Yikes. The predators in the bull & terrier weight class have zero business interacting with one, nothing has a chance. Cats need to be around 80lbs or so to start actually being a big challenge.
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Post by Bolushi on Sept 21, 2023 19:17:47 GMT
Wondering if Bolushi or Dale are going to try argue Dogo Argentino would beat a Spotted Hyena lol Dogo wins that fight no problem. Can't kill it though. Would not go anywhere. A spotted hyena would be less dangerous than a hog. |
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Post by s on Sept 21, 2023 19:25:00 GMT
Wondering if Bolushi or Dale are going to try argue Dogo Argentino would beat a Spotted Hyena lol Dogo wins that fight no problem. Can't kill it though. Would not go anywhere. A spotted hyena would be less dangerous than a hog. How? Im actually interested on how you came to that conclusion, Hyena is not only signifcantly heavier but also has much better weaponry and is extremely durable |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 21, 2023 19:35:42 GMT
The durability of the hyena is indeed great, and yet there is actually no reason whatsoever to assume it is superior to gripping dogs like dogo argentinos who have superior bone robusticity, similarly thick durable skin, more dense muscle, etc. We haven't seen lions try to kill dogo argentinos, that is the only difference. We do have testimony of tiny 30 lbs relatives of the dogo argentino doing surprisingly well against lions. That is all we have.
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Post by Bolushi on Sept 21, 2023 19:44:01 GMT
Dogo wins that fight no problem. Can't kill it though. Would not go anywhere. A spotted hyena would be less dangerous than a hog. How? Im actually interested on how you came to that conclusion, Hyena is not only signifcantly heavier but also has much better weaponry and is extremely durable Striped and brown hyenas get beaten up by dogs smaller than themselves all the time and inflict no injuries to their assailants. Spotted hyena would be sturdier and stronger but if you control the head a hyena can't do much to you -  And if you don't, the hyena is no danger to quickly kill anyway. The dog has some time to gain control. An African wild dog is on video totally fucking a spotted hyena and a Dogo is approximately 100,000,000,000x more capable than an African wild dog at subjugating dangerous animals. rumble.com/v2u3j9u-african-wild-dog-neutralizes-a-hyena.html |
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Post by s on Sept 21, 2023 20:00:01 GMT
How? Im actually interested on how you came to that conclusion, Hyena is not only signifcantly heavier but also has much better weaponry and is extremely durable Striped and brown hyenas get beaten up by dogs smaller than themselves all the time and inflict no injuries to their assailants. Spotted hyena would be sturdier and stronger but if you control the head a hyena can't do much to you - And if you don't, the hyena is no danger to quickly kill anyway. The dog has some time to gain control. An African wild dog is on video totally fucking a spotted hyena and a Dogo is approximately 100,000,000,000x more capable than an African wild dog at subjugating dangerous animals. rumble.com/v2u3j9u-african-wild-dog-neutralizes-a-hyena.htmlAnd there is also footage where they performed well against AWD packs despite being outnumbered 1:4 |
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