Dogo Argentino vs Cougar

[Deleted]

vs

[Deleted]

Up to 120lbs I favor a 115lb Dogo, 130lbs is a close one. I think you'd need a 120lb Dogo to edge one out, a 115lb Dogo is probably outgunned, but it has a chance.
A 100lb running catch dog Dogo is an even fight for a 120lb cougar, but an 100lb cougar is doomed against an 100lb Dogo. A 110lb cougar has a chance, but 115-120lbs is where the Dogo starts having issues.
Weight advantages mean a lot in this match.

[Deleted]

@hardcastle
Do you think a 130lb cougar should be favored over a 110lb Dogo? How about a 115lb Dogo? I'd be inclined to think a 115lb Dogo would be ever so slightly outgunned by a 130lb cougar more often than not. 110lb Dogo also potentially. I do think that if some sort of collie or shepherd bay dog was there the odds would be in the Dogo's favor considering it's so close between them.
I remember I used to think an 100lb Dogo would beat a 150lb cougar because I thought 150lb cougars were average... lol.

[Hardcastle]

Yeah I'm never quite sure where the tipping points are, size wise.
At lower weights I really do believe cougars (and cats in general) are just totally outclassed by "switched on" bulldogs, bull terriers and boarhounds. I have no hesitation or doubt in saying that.
The issue is there is a weight where bulldogs, bull terriers and boarhounds start diminishing lbs for lbs. It's USUALLY around 100 lbs, and possibly even lower, simply because these just aren't supposed to be huge animals. But then you get odd freaks that cling onto proportional ability a little higher. But it gets murky because some cling onto "a surprising amount" that is impressive "for a dog their size" while still technically diminishing proportionately from an 80 lbs dog. Meanwhile cats actually just go from strength to strength as they start getting over 120 lbs and up to 200 lbs and even up to 500 lbs. Though I would argue they have probably started losing some proportional ability up around 450 + lbs, and it has started becoming impressive "for their size". I think the cat equivalent of "Diesel" would be like a 550 lbs siberian tiger, the cat equivalent of "Caporal" would be like a 300 lbs sumatran tiger. A sumatran tiger is scary because it's literally like a 130 lbs leopard at 300 lbs. It's that explosive and athletic with similar power to weight ratio. And that's caporal, he was like a 50 lbs bulldog at 108 lbs, and in being that a total marvel to sportsmen of the late 19th century. Diesel is like a 120 lbs boarhound at 165 lbs. Like diesel a 550 lbs tiger is remarkable for how athletic is still is at such a whopping size, but it has still realistically lost some proportional impressiveness compared to a sumatran tiger. Gravity is just working against these big whoppers.

But yeah that's the difference in peak functional sizes for cats and dogs. It's a huge discrepancy where cats are comfortably at their peak much higher, and can then push the limits while maintaining impressive ability much higher as well. They're around 3 times bigger at max functional weights on average. BUT, this doesn't translate to proportional superiority at equal weights in the lower weight classes. At 30-100 lbs the gripping dogs (bulldogs/bullterriers and mastiffs/boarhounds) are much "bigger" animals, and this is reflected with their subjugation capacity for the biggest of big game. Basically cats have to be 3 times bigger to think about targeting prey that gripping dogs can target, and that's precisely why they are bigger. To exploit prey like buffalo and wild boar with confidence, cats had to evolve to be 300-500 lbs. That is what their style required from them, size wise, to tackle such game. Bulldogs manage to subjugate such game with their anchoring technique at much smaller sizes, and so when you match a bulldog/boarhound against a cat of equal weight, you're actually matching totally mismatched subjugation capacities. The dogs is far superior and far higher so it wins the subjugation contest. Killing be damned, its pinning and dominating the cat because it has a vastly superior "subjugation grading". The cat is essentially saying "what the hell is this shit? I'm at an antelope level and I'm pressing against buffalo level grappling, ugh... *fold*". That's what happens. That's what ALWAYS happens when gripping dogs in their optimal size range face off against cats in that same range. It's actually kind of unfair because that cat is built for "lighter lifting".

So we come back to the question of "where is the size where they meet? Where are they equal?". We need to look in that zone where gripping dogs have started falling off slightly, but not too much. And also where cats have gotten big enough to start thinking about targeting bigger more serious game. Both actually have outlier freaks, and then also a general limitation that usually applies. Usually gripping dogs max out at 120 lbs or 55 kgs before they start being too big to function at a high level, but freaks can push over that. Usually cats have to be at least 75 kgs before they can be "big game cats" (not to be confused with deer or even elk-killing cats, I mean adult male boars or adult cattle- and that last one, cattle ... might even be 90 kgs but I'll be generous), but the odd freak might be capable of big game feats SMALLER than that. So it's actually hard to find the overlap. But I think it's fair to say 140 lbs is where cats decisively take over. 120-140 (maybe even 115 to 140) is the "competitive zone". I've probably said different things in the past, but as I think about it now, that is what I think.

[Deleted]

@ajay

[Deleted]

I haven't got a problem with Bolushi and Antonio's estimations here, I think they're beating around the right area. But this might seem somewhat inconsistent with my views as I expressed them on the - foodchaingang.proboards.com/thread/199/minimum-animal-required-beat-gamebred - thread, so that I now appear to have too big a p4p gap between what the "gamebred APBT" and the dogo is capable of.

I inferred that a 60 lb "gamebred APBT" combat paritys with the likes of 130 lb cougar, and that due to the superior flexibility/grappling ability of the leopard over the cougar, that this would aid in the leopard's ability to take down a gripper, so that 60 lb gamebred APBT combat paritys with the likes of 115 lb leopard.

Similarly, I'd also say that dogo has to be bigger/more impressive to outmatch leopard than cougar, maybe by 10 or 20 lbs.

But what I want to address is what at face-value might appear to be a gross overestimation of the APBT's capabilities vs big cat in comparison to what I've agreed to about dogo vs big cat.

What I'd first like to point out is that my version of a 60 lb gamebred APBT assumes a box-fighting pit from one of the best lines from one of the handful of great dogmen eg Marice Carver.

Dogmen of this ilk have unnaturally high selection criteria, far higher than the natural selection for combat that occurs in nature with any wild carnivora. For their size these dogs are very unnaturally combat competent, you just don't see it in nature. Gamebred APBT are "against nature".

And I'm not merely talking about your average "gamebred" APBT from pro lines, but "tested" APBT, a very select few individuals selected from elite gamebred litters and that pass the selection criteria for a list of very specific traits and abilities. Just to be a "game" dog from an elite line does not cut it.

Nearly all APBT bred from elite lines do not pass "the test", if you're lucky you'll get one dog out of an elite gamebred litter that ends up "tested". The vast majority of the other gamebred APBT generally get used as practice-bait dogs.

Something else I wanted to point out is that when I was referring to a 60 lb APBT I was referring to that APBT's catchweight, the weight it is in the box whereby bodyfat and water content have been cut down as low as possible so that a "bigger" dog can compete in the lowest "weight-class" possible. An elite catchweight dog as presented in the box is very unnaturally lean and dehydrated, in the wild it would be like a half-starved cougar three-quarters of its healthy weight.

What this means is that at its normal healthy weight, this dog is perhaps 10 - 20 lbs bigger, a 70 - 80 lb dog. And I'm assuming that this dog goes into the contest with the leopard or cougar not at 60 lbs catchweight, but at its optimal weight for taking on cat ie say 80 lbs.

I do this because when people think about a 60 lb "gamebred APBT", they are often thinking about a 60 lb catchweight APBT as it appears in the box, which is not its usual weight, but a very temporary weight.

So I take that 60 lb APBT and assume its now not only up to its healthy weight, but beefed up some to optimize his potential for the big cat contest specifically.

So you have a super-freak dog bred from a long line of dogs with very unnnatural selection criteria far more strigent than anything you'll see in the wild, it's beefed up to 80 lbs which is still not "overweight" for that dog's frame, and he undergoes combat-specific training everyday by an elite dogman, training never compromises on other traits required for survival in the wild, this is a UFC fighter fighting against (wild) street fighters.

I don't think it's very unrealistic that such a dog would combat parity with 115 lb leopard/130 lb cougar. Probably not in its 60 lb catchweight form, but by optimizing that same dog's weight for the contest eg 80 lbs. But keep in mind that even fighting at 60 lb catchweight, this dog is not really a 60 lb dog in frame size, it's naturally a larger dog than your typical 60 lb dog.

Tristan says above he thinks a "100 lb dogo" is an even fight with 120 lb cougar. So I think this is fairly close to fitting in with my estimation of "80 lbs for tested APBT" for an even fight with 130 lb cougar/115 leopard.

[Deleted]

Dec 21, 2022 17:47:33 GMT @ajay said:

I haven't got a problem with Bolushi and Antonio's estimations here, I think they're beating around the right area. But this might seem somewhat inconsistent with my views as I expressed them on the - foodchaingang.proboards.com/thread/199/minimum-animal-required-beat-gamebred - thread, so that I now appear to have too big a p4p gap between what the "gamebred APBT" and the dogo is capable of.

I inferred that a 60 lb "gamebred APBT" combat paritys with the likes of 130 lb cougar, and that due to the superior flexibility/grappling ability of the leopard over the cougar, that this would aid in the leopard's ability to take down a gripper, so that 60 lb gamebred APBT combat paritys with the likes of 115 lb leopard.

Similarly, I'd also say that dogo has to be bigger/more impressive to outmatch leopard than cougar, maybe by 10 or 20 lbs.

But what I want to address is what at face-value might appear to be a gross overestimation of the APBT's capabilities vs big cat in comparison to what I've agreed to about dogo vs big cat.

What I'd first like to point out is that my version of a 60 lb gamebred APBT assumes a box-fighting pit from one of the best lines from one of the handful of great dogmen eg Marice Carver.

Dogmen of this ilk have unnaturally high selection criteria, far higher than the natural selection for combat that occurs in nature with any wild carnivora. For their size these dogs are very unnaturally combat competent, you just don't see it in nature. Gamebred APBT are "against nature".

And I'm not merely talking about your average "gamebred" APBT from pro lines, but "tested" APBT, a very select few individuals selected from elite gamebred litters and that pass the selection criteria for a list of very specific traits and abilities. Just to be a "game" dog from an elite line does not cut it.

Nearly all APBT bred from elite lines do not pass "the test", if you're lucky you'll get one dog out of an elite gamebred litter that ends up "tested". The vast majority of the other gamebred APBT generally get used as practice-bait dogs.

Something else I wanted to point out is that when I was referring to a 60 lb APBT I was referring to that APBT's catchweight, the weight it is in the box whereby bodyfat and water content have been cut down as low as possible so that a "bigger" dog can compete in the lowest "weight-class" possible. An elite catchweight dog as presented in the box is very unnaturally lean and dehydrated, in the wild it would be like a half-starved cougar three-quarters of its healthy weight.

What this means is that at its normal healthy weight, this dog is perhaps 10 - 20 lbs bigger, a 70 - 80 lb dog. And I'm assuming that this dog goes into the contest with the leopard or cougar not at 60 lbs catchweight, but at its optimal weight for taking on cat ie say 80 lbs.

I do this because when people think about a 60 lb "gamebred APBT", they are often thinking about a 60 lb catchweight APBT as it appears in the box, which is not its usual weight, but a very temporary weight.

So I take that 60 lb APBT and assume its now not only up to its healthy weight, but beefed up some to optimize his potential for the big cat contest specifically.

So you have a super-freak dog bred from a long line of dogs with very unnnatural selection criteria far more strigent than anything you'll see in the wild, it's beefed up to 80 lbs which is still not "overweight" for that dog's frame, and he undergoes combat-specific training everyday by an elite dogman, training never compromises on other traits required for survival in the wild, this is a UFC fighter fighting against (wild) street fighters.

I don't think it's very unrealistic that such a dog would combat parity with 115 lb leopard/130 lb cougar. Probably not in its 60 lb catchweight form, but by optimizing that same dog's weight for the contest eg 80 lbs. But keep in mind that even fighting at 60 lb catchweight, this dog is not really a 60 lb dog in frame size, it's naturally a larger dog than your typical 60 lb dog.

Tristan says above he thinks a "100 lb dogo" is an even fight with 120 lb cougar. So I think this is fairly close to fitting in with my estimation of "80 lbs for tested APBT" for an even fight with 130 lb cougar/115 leopard.

I'm quite concerned an APBT would just be grappled down and just isn't big enough no matter how great and better at fighting by a 115-130lb leopard/cougar but I may entertain the APBT. I kind of do against the leopard, but a 130lb cougar is definitely pushing it. I don't think it's going to overcome an over 2x weight disadvantage against a feline who can grapple it down and place its killing bite.
I'm skeptical of a bit of your gamebred APBT information. Box dogs being dehydrated and malnourished sounds like animal rights activist shit, dogmen like their dogs. They intensively work them out yes, and they may try to get the water out of them to meet the weight requirements, but dehydrated? Ehhh
The vast majority of other gamebred APBTs are used as bait, sort of, they don't get their leg broken and set on fire and the flaming dog is set upon by a game dog as commonly falsely advertised. They roll these dogs with each other to figure it out, and I'd wager they either shoot the dogs that don't cut it or use them to spar kind of like captive cougars and dogos.

[Deleted]

Bolushi I never said box dogs go in "malnourished", and they don't really. They go in very lean (primarily by shedding a lot of fat, and as an unwanted side-effect, some muscle). And they go in somewhat dehydrated due to the accelerated cutting process that occurs in the few days before the fight.

Shedding water weight is the main way they "make weight", and exactly the same goes with boxers and MMA fighters. That's not a human or animal-rights issue, it's just a very standard (if often controversial) practice athletes go through to make weight.

You listen to any dogman on how he gets his dogs to lose that last few pounds of weight during the few days before a fight, that is done via an intense few days of shedding water weight.

And it's why MMA fighters go into the sauna or take hot baths for the last few days before the fight while dramatically limiting their water intake.

It's not a dissimilar method for catchweight fighting APBT, except from what I've heard dogmen tend to take them for lots of walks to shed water weight while dramatically limiting water intake. Haven't heard of them putting them in the sauna or giving them hot baths, but for all I know some of them might.

It's not really an animal rights issue as far as shedding water weight for a few days before a fight goes, not really damaging unless pushed too far. A lot of people do say it's not a great thing to do, both for human and animal athletes. But as it currently stands and has stood for generations, it's an accepted part of sports involving weight divisions.

It's just what athletes do when trying to make weight. And it's a very temporary condition. These dogs lose a lot of weight in the last few days before a fight, in the last few days virtually all the weight they lose is water, and in the last few days they lose more weight per day than in the previous number of weeks/months losing fat weight.

Water weight can come off quick, fat doesn't, fat takes a much longer time. So they do the fat part in the weeks and months before the fight, and the water-weight part a few days before the fight.

Having said all this, when human athletes make weight they do start consuming a lot of water between making weight and the fight to try to make back up as much water as they can. But they generally still go into the fight somewhat under-hydrated, they don't have enough time between making weight and the fight to make it all back up.

And because of this water-shedding process in the last few days before a fight, they do tend to go into the box a little undergassed, shedding a lot of water weight is an intense ordeal. But they do it because there's still a better chance of winning like that than going in full-weight full-gas with a heavier dog. At the elite level it's ultra competitive.

[Deleted]

Dec 21, 2022 18:36:02 GMT @ajay said:

Bolushi I never said box dogs go in "malnourished", and they don't really. They go in very lean (primarily by shedding a lot of fat, and as an unwanted side-effect, some muscle). And they go in somewhat dehydrated due to the accelerated cutting process that occurs in the few days before the fight.

Shedding water weight is the main way they "make weight", and exactly the same goes with boxers and MMA fighters. That's not a human or animal-rights issue, it's just a very standard (if often controversial) practice athletes go through to make weight.

You listen to any dogman on how he gets his dogs to lose that last few pounds of weight during the few days before a fight, that is done via an intense few days of shedding water weight.

And it's why MMA fighters go into the sauna or take hot baths for the last few days before the fight while dramatically limiting their water intake.

It's not a dissimilar method for catchweight fighting APBT, except from what I've heard dogmen tend to take them for lots of walks to shed water weight while dramatically limiting water intake. Haven't heard of them putting them in the sauna or giving them hot baths, but for all I know some of them might.

It's not really an animal rights issue as far as shedding water weight for a few days before a fight goes, not really damaging unless pushed too far. A lot of people do say it's not a great thing to do, both for human and animal athletes. But as it currently stands and has stood for generations, it's an accepted part of sports involving weight divisions.

It's just what athletes do when trying to make weight. And it's a very temporary condition. These dogs lose a lot of weight in the last few days before a fight, in the last few days virtually all the weight they lose is water, and in the last few days they lose more weight per day than in the previous number of weeks/months losing fat weight.

Water weight can come off quick, fat doesn't, fat takes a much longer time. So they do the fat part in the weeks and months before the fight, and the water-weight part a few days before the fight.

Having said all this, when human athletes make weight they do start consuming a lot of water between making weight and the fight to try to make back up as much water as they can. But they generally still go into the fight somewhat under-hydrated, they don't have enough time between making weight and the fight to make it all back up.

And because of this water-shedding process in the last few days before a fight, they do tend to go into the box a little undergassed, shedding a lot of water weight is an intense ordeal. But they do it because there's still a better chance of winning like that than going in full-weight full-gas with a heavier dog. At the elite level it's ultra competitive.

You said: ''in the wild it would be like a half-starved cougar three-quarters of its healthy weight.'' I don't think half starved cougars have a lot of muscle and leanness.

[Deleted]

Dec 21, 2022 22:21:44 GMT Bolushi said:

Dec 21, 2022 18:36:02 GMT @ajay said:

Bolushi I never said box dogs go in "malnourished", and they don't really. They go in very lean (primarily by shedding a lot of fat, and as an unwanted side-effect, some muscle). And they go in somewhat dehydrated due to the accelerated cutting process that occurs in the few days before the fight.

Shedding water weight is the main way they "make weight", and exactly the same goes with boxers and MMA fighters. That's not a human or animal-rights issue, it's just a very standard (if often controversial) practice athletes go through to make weight.

You listen to any dogman on how he gets his dogs to lose that last few pounds of weight during the few days before a fight, that is done via an intense few days of shedding water weight.

And it's why MMA fighters go into the sauna or take hot baths for the last few days before the fight while dramatically limiting their water intake.

It's not a dissimilar method for catchweight fighting APBT, except from what I've heard dogmen tend to take them for lots of walks to shed water weight while dramatically limiting water intake. Haven't heard of them putting them in the sauna or giving them hot baths, but for all I know some of them might.

It's not really an animal rights issue as far as shedding water weight for a few days before a fight goes, not really damaging unless pushed too far. A lot of people do say it's not a great thing to do, both for human and animal athletes. But as it currently stands and has stood for generations, it's an accepted part of sports involving weight divisions.

It's just what athletes do when trying to make weight. And it's a very temporary condition. These dogs lose a lot of weight in the last few days before a fight, in the last few days virtually all the weight they lose is water, and in the last few days they lose more weight per day than in the previous number of weeks/months losing fat weight.

Water weight can come off quick, fat doesn't, fat takes a much longer time. So they do the fat part in the weeks and months before the fight, and the water-weight part a few days before the fight.

Having said all this, when human athletes make weight they do start consuming a lot of water between making weight and the fight to try to make back up as much water as they can. But they generally still go into the fight somewhat under-hydrated, they don't have enough time between making weight and the fight to make it all back up.

And because of this water-shedding process in the last few days before a fight, they do tend to go into the box a little undergassed, shedding a lot of water weight is an intense ordeal. But they do it because there's still a better chance of winning like that than going in full-weight full-gas with a heavier dog. At the elite level it's ultra competitive.

You said: ''in the wild it would be like a half-starved cougar three-quarters of its healthy weight.'' I don't think half starved cougars have a lot of muscle and leanness.

I gotcha, I was making a loose equivalency on performance, probably a poor one, but just trying to make the point that when fighters have to make weight they're not actually performing at their full walk-around weight or the weight they'd choose if they simply wanted to be the best fighter exclusive of weight divisions.

So with the APBT, their chainweight is higher than their fighting weight, like in the case of Mayday, 10 lbs heavier. Mayday went into his fights at 69 lbs but his chainweight is 79 lbs.

Now most people when assessing Mayday for going to fight something like a big cat would go on "Mayday being a 69 lb dog", assuming that because he fights at that weight that that is his optimal fighting weight.

But his natural size is bigger than that, his chainweight is 79 lbs, which in itself is probably a fairly lean dog in strict training. I think you could beef Mayday up to 90 lbs and he still would be a reasonably fit dog.

Same with boxdogs that are known for being "60 lb dogs" (fighting weight), against a big cat I'd fight those ones at 80 lbs knowing their frame is big enough to handle it without being overweight.

My point really is that these elite fighting dogs are somewhat naturally bigger dogs than their box weight implies.

[Deleted]

Bolushi I now remember reading something on Mayday and his fighting days. One dogman said to another dogman that his dog is going to come into the fight at some significant weight over his weigh-in weight. Which implies that, just like MMA fighters, they do have time enough to stuff their faces before the actual fight, probably along the order of one day or so.

When they go to weigh-in they would be somewhat malnourished (as well as dehydrated) to make weight. Not in a chronic long-term way, but just going short in food and liquid for a few days before the weigh-in.

The weight they're actually fighting at is somewhat heavier than their actual billed weigh-in weight, while their actual fighting weight that they enter the box with is still lower than their natural weight.

But folks will still associate that fighter as fighting at their billed weight. Tale of the Tape weight isn't the weight the fighters will actually be coming into the box at.

Some fighters, dogs included, through water and food shortage, are able to lose a more signficant amount of weight in the few days before the weigh-in than their opponent.

You could have one dog at 70 lb chainweight and another at 65 lbs, with the former dog being the naturally larger dog. And the fighting weight they're supposed to make might be say 55 lbs. But the larger dog is put through a more arduous kind of pre weigh-in cutting process where he makes weight just like the smaller dog.

But then in the very short time after the weigh-in, both dogs now stuff themselves to get up to as heavy a weight as they can manage for the fight. The naturally larger dog will be able to put on more weight for the fight than the naturally smaller dog, so that the larger dog literally goes into the fight perhaps 5 lbs heavier.

This is common in both in the box and the cage, large athletes trying to make ridiculously low weights for the weigh-in via strenuous dehydration and food shortage for the few days before the fight, so they can fight in the lowest weight division possible and have the best chance of winning.

I probably didn't communicate this well before as I was trying to keep things more concise, but these fighters do tend to go into the weigh-in in pretty poor shape, but spring back quite a lot for the fight. Not completely, but largely. But they aren't chronically malnourished, it's just a pre weigh-in trick really that they can spring back from pretty well pretty quickly.

They're usually not anywhere near as small a dog/person as their billed weight implies.

It can be really surprising how much weight fighters can lose in a short space of time for a weigh-in. It's not really healthy, but elite sport isn't so much about health, but performance and winning, often at the cost of health.

[Hardcastle]

[Deleted]

@dorado

[Deleted]

Yea def dogo under 50kg At 70kg+ cougar is too big. There probably is a middle ground somewhere. Persian leopard might be a more interesting comparison?

[Hardcastle]