kevin
Ruminant
Posts: 152
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Post by kevin on Jul 6, 2023 8:49:13 GMT
kevinWhat are your thoughts on this one? I'll voice my opinion later. Gotta learn more about dogo Argentino breed first. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jul 6, 2023 8:55:56 GMT
It's probably best if we just never speak of this topic again, lol.
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Post by s on Sept 2, 2023 15:50:36 GMT
At 30-100 lbs the gripping dogs (bulldogs/bullterriers and mastiffs/boarhounds) are much "bigger" animals, and this is reflected with their subjugation capacity for the biggest of big game. Basically cats have to be 3 times bigger to think about targeting prey that gripping dogs can target, and that's precisely why they are bigger. To exploit prey like buffalo and wild boar with confidence, cats had to evolve to be 300-500 lbs. Hilarious post, in Spain, the natural predators of Boars that kept their population under control were Bears, Wolves, and even Lynxes to a smaller extent, once their numbers greatly decreased due to humans hunting them Boar population exploded again 4 Iberian Wolves (Smallish Wolf sub-species) defeating a Wild Boar pretty comfortably, Boars shouldn't be underestimated but "130kg" isn't the point where a Wild Predator can confidently tackle them alone, it's closer to 50kg-70kg. Assuming we are using a normal 75kg-100kg Boar. This is consistent to 2-3 Dogos being normally (read normally, for really good Dogos 1 may be enough) needed to subdue a Boar so the Hunter can get a good shot. About Cape Buffalo i doubt there ever existed a Canine able to seriously wound or kill them in a 1v1. Felines? Sure, but those felines have long fangs made to paralyze and were able to get to the back of the Cape Buffalo in one go, while Bulldogs are not that Athletic |
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Post by s on Sept 2, 2023 15:58:19 GMT
Usually gripping dogs max out at 120 lbs or 55 kgs before they start being too big to function at a high level, but freaks can push over that. Usually cats have to be at least 75 kgs before they can be "big game cats" (not to be confused with deer or even elk-killing cats, I mean adult male boars or adult cattle- and that last one, cattle ... might even be 90 kgs but I'll be generous), but the odd freak might be capable of big game feats SMALLER than that. So it's actually hard to find the overlap. But I think it's fair to say 140 lbs is where cats decisively take over. 120-140 (maybe even 115 to 140) is the "competitive zone". I've probably said different things in the past, but as I think about it now, that is what I think. Bobcats semi-regularly hunt Whitetail/Blacktail Deer and Eurasian Lynx can prey on Red Deer over 150kg. 45-50kg is where Felines begin being able to comfortably tackle larger Game. Elk is tougher but 60-70kg is where Felines can start tackling them more comfortably. Killing unagressive, usually dehorned and overweight cattle isn't impressive, you keep bringing up that Katrina hurricane case, but describing that massively overweight and unagressive Bull as a "raging bull with horns" is hilarious. Actual Fighting Bulls usually weight 450-600kg, that morbidly obese Bull that probably barely was able to move weighted a ton. A less fat cattle Bull around 700kg would have performed better. Heck, a single Snow Leopard would have killed the Bull faster than the 2 Pitbulls combined, just see how they prey on Yak. |
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Post by s on Sept 13, 2023 19:15:56 GMT
Hello Bolushi, im not trying to insult you or anything, just correcting a bit
The Pumas Dogos hunt are smallish Argentinian Pumas, about the same size as the Dogos, the males rarely get above 50kg, you confuse them with the huge Chilean/South Patagonian Puma that is in Torres del Paine and the like, males average 68kg, 2rd largest Puma population in the world after Columbian Puma (71kg), even an elite Dogo with lots of hunting experience isn't beating a 68kg Puma more often than not in it's best day
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Post by grippingwhiteness on Sept 13, 2023 19:24:49 GMT
As Dale said, 60-64 kg is where cata decisively take over any dog . 50-55 kgs is interesting and that starts also being too much powerful, assuming it's not a faggotish scaredy captive cat.
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Post by s on Sept 14, 2023 18:21:51 GMT
As Dale said, 60-64 kg is where cata decisively take over any dog . 50-55 kgs is interesting and that starts also being too much powerful, assuming it's not a faggotish scaredy captive cat. Personally i believe 45-50kg is where i start favouring felines over canines at parity or even at a slight size disadvantage, as we pass from the quite gracile Cheetah and Lynx Genus to much more impressive builds like Florida Panther and Snow Leopards. Homever the 35-45kg range is where canine primacy begins being shaking and deteriorating. |
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Post by grippingwhiteness on Sept 14, 2023 19:14:48 GMT
As Dale said, 60-64 kg is where cata decisively take over any dog . 50-55 kgs is interesting and that starts also being too much powerful, assuming it's not a faggotish scaredy captive cat. Personally i believe 45-50kg is where i start favouring felines over canines at parity or even at a slight size disadvantage, as we pass from the quite gracile Cheetah and Lynx Genus to much more impressive builds like Florida Panther and Snow Leopards. Homever the 35-45kg range is where canine primacy begins being shaking and deteriorating. Nope, 30-35 kg is where canine primacy is at it's peak. I also start believing that the best and most formidable cougar/leopard you can get starts becoming proportionally powerful in the 45-50+ kg range (talking about the best performance an individual can give) as cougars of this size have defeated or badly beaten dogos, but in my very opinion 55-60 kg is where they take over, 60-64 kg is for Dale, I actually think that best vs best cats decisively take over slightly below than that at around 55-60 kg. With the exception of cheetahs, I favour a bullgrey or a Labrador over a cheetah easily. Snow Leopard is actually...hard to classify. We know they kill and are stronger than TMs but even a very good rottweiler would be stronger than them so... |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 14, 2023 19:41:33 GMT
Personally i believe 45-50kg is where i start favouring felines over canines at parity or even at a slight size disadvantage, as we pass from the quite gracile Cheetah and Lynx Genus to much more impressive builds like Florida Panther and Snow Leopards. Homever the 35-45kg range is where canine primacy begins being shaking and deteriorating. Nope, 30-35 kg is where canine primacy is at it's peak. I also start believing that the best and most formidable cougar/leopard you can get starts becoming proportionally powerful in the 45-50+ kg range (talking about the best performance an individual can give) as cougars of this size have defeated or badly beaten dogos, but in my very opinion 55-60 kg is where they take over, 60-64 kg is for Dale, I actually think that best vs best cats decisively take over slightly below than that at around 55-60 kg. With the exception of cheetahs, I favour a bullgrey or a Labrador over a cheetah easily. Snow Leopard is actually...hard to classify. We know they kill and are stronger than TMs but even a very good rottweiler would be stronger than them so... Is there a sub-species/population of leopard, or snow leopard or puma where the fully mature chonky "boss" males are as low as 35-45 kgs? I'd maybe consider them interesting contenders for the "division", but still think the best bulldogs and boarhounds in that range would have their number. |
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Post by Bolushi on Sept 14, 2023 19:57:11 GMT
Hello Bolushi, im not trying to insult you or anything, just correcting a bit The Pumas Dogos hunt are smallish Argentinian Pumas, about the same size as the Dogos, the males rarely get above 50kg, you confuse them with the huge Chilean/South Patagonian Puma that is in Torres del Paine and the like, males average 68kg, 2rd largest Puma population in the world after Columbian Puma (71kg), even an elite Dogo with lots of hunting experience isn't beating a 68kg Puma more often than not in it's best day Dogos definitely do hunt pumas larger than themselves weighing around 60kgs though. We have videos of such hunts taking place and I believe I posted one in this thread, a fully grown mature male puma with a substantial prey base should be around 60kgs in some regions Dogos hunt them. Dogos do mix it up with smaller pumas too, but larger ones as well. Not South Patagonia sized, though they do hunt there. A theory with no evidence to it at all is that this video - Takes place in Southern Patagonia, and the reason they're using bailers and a Dogo as a lead-in catch dog is because running catch dogs wouldn't do so great running into a male cougar in areas like that? Just a hunch. |
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Post by grippingwhiteness on Sept 15, 2023 19:13:15 GMT
Nope, 30-35 kg is where canine primacy is at it's peak. I also start believing that the best and most formidable cougar/leopard you can get starts becoming proportionally powerful in the 45-50+ kg range (talking about the best performance an individual can give) as cougars of this size have defeated or badly beaten dogos, but in my very opinion 55-60 kg is where they take over, 60-64 kg is for Dale, I actually think that best vs best cats decisively take over slightly below than that at around 55-60 kg. With the exception of cheetahs, I favour a bullgrey or a Labrador over a cheetah easily. Snow Leopard is actually...hard to classify. We know they kill and are stronger than TMs but even a very good rottweiler would be stronger than them so... Is there a sub-species/population of leopard, or snow leopard or puma where the fully mature chonky "boss" males are as low as 35-45 kgs? I'd maybe consider them interesting contenders for the "division", but still think the best bulldogs and boarhounds in that range would have their number. For snow leopards, absolutely (and they do average 45 kg), if you mean subspecies. For leopards and cougars, as subspecies, that's not the case, it's mostly that the same subspecies are generally so divided and splitted in populations that some can average as high as 65-70 kgs and some can average as low as 35 kg. Probably the arabian leopard is the only case I do know of. You surely might add "but there's cape leopa-" No. Cape leopards are african leopards, they are just isolated and feed on much smaller preys that's why they are like three times smaller than their northern counterparts. They are still the same subspecies , just a dwarf population. But the genetic is identical. It's not the case for arabian leopards because despite their very close geographical location to African leopards they 100% are a different subspecies. You can see it even by their esthetic. Arabian   Cape   You clearly do see that the Cape one is definitely just a dwarf savannah leopard, the Arabian leopard is 100% another subspecies. I stand with my take that starting at 45 to 50 kg the best and most formidable individual male cougar and male leopard will defeat any dog (not without a hard fight, win by back position is the most probable but Caru case proves that 35-40+ kg cougars can subdue and control with their forelimbs 35-40 kg dogos, although it would be a rare case and if a cat wins is 99% from dominate position) close to his size , but will lose to the largest max sized gripping dogs in 60-65 kg range (you need a 55-60 kg cat to overcome that). Which is proven by the fact that basically all the instances minus the cliff one where cougars weren't captive bred useless scaredy cats barely putting any resistance actually faired from terribly tearing to defeating dogos. But I'm curious about one thing, we have talked about dog feats, but in your opinion, what is the best cat feat against a dog? Cougars and leopards only, I'd agrue that the best cat feat in general is probably the ocelot in the boxer. To my take the Caru instance is the most impressive one because that was at lower sizes (35-40+ kg range) and that cougar was able to basically defeat an experienced dogo almost instantly by grappling it down and immobilizing it with the killing neck bite, despite being in a weight range where boarhounds are more robust and physically stronger than cougars, although that cat probably had a little weight advantage to grapple down and defeat the dog. However, while I do defend cougars and leopards for this, I likely won't do the same for snow leopards. They have shown to be better than Tibetan mastiffs but a hunting dogo would oneshot one too. Snow leopards have proportionally smaller skulls, they are INCREDIBLY resistant to fall damage but I think boarhounds are near totally above them- the larger the cat the bigger the problem obviously. But look at snow leopard skull.  Now look at cougar and leopard skull respectively. The difference....   There is a DARK reality regarding that cougar skull by the way, it is the longest one (271 mm) but I bet you will never guess the reality about that cougar who possessed it. Bet. |
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Post by grippingwhiteness on Sept 15, 2023 19:19:53 GMT
Hello Bolushi, im not trying to insult you or anything, just correcting a bit The Pumas Dogos hunt are smallish Argentinian Pumas, about the same size as the Dogos, the males rarely get above 50kg, you confuse them with the huge Chilean/South Patagonian Puma that is in Torres del Paine and the like, males average 68kg, 2rd largest Puma population in the world after Columbian Puma (71kg), even an elite Dogo with lots of hunting experience isn't beating a 68kg Puma more often than not in it's best day Dogos definitely do hunt pumas larger than themselves weighing around 60kgs though. We have videos of such hunts taking place and I believe I posted one in this thread, a fully grown mature male puma with a substantial prey base should be around 60kgs in some regions Dogos hunt them. Dogos do mix it up with smaller pumas too, but larger ones as well. Not South Patagonia sized, though they do hunt there. A theory with no evidence to it at all is that this video - Takes place in Southern Patagonia, and the reason they're using bailers and a Dogo as a lead-in catch dog is because running catch dogs wouldn't do so great running into a male cougar in areas like that? Just a hunch. Well we have seen what happens when a fierce male cougar confronts a dogo solo, not going to end well. That's probably why they use baying dogs in areas where cougars can get powerful, too risky for the chances to meet a strong male that would defeat the quarry. A female won't though. Looks like a female also visually smaller than the dogo too in the vid. By the way I've seen you on bestiary defending a picture I don't have right now as evidence of dogos hunting larger pumas - you know that those dogos didn't do anything to that cougar right? The guts of the cougar are very visible and the dogos (and those are pups too, except one is the mother I guess) are totally unscated and way smaller than that cat, I bet anything that none of those dogs, even together, would be a match for that big cougar to be fair. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 15, 2023 20:05:05 GMT
I do believe it's a female but as far as size goes... I think that puma in the video weighs as much as the dogo, conservatively. The biggest puma on earth is only a couple inches taller than a dogo, if you freeze frame them around 14 seconds you can see the puma's torso is at least the same length and mass as the dogo. Here-  I'd guess both are somewhere around 43 kgs. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 15, 2023 20:23:28 GMT
The most impressive cat feat to me would be the jaguar that beat multiple apbts in a pit fight, because they were probably fighting dogs. I think it was 4 at once? It was some case where it was set up by some drug lord guy in Brazil.
The leopard that beat 2 boarhounds (I think at once, you disagree) in the circus would be up there. Because again those are legit dogs whose job it was to tame big cats that were spazzing out.
The jaguar beating Hercules the fighting bulldog is impressive to me too, again, the fact it is definitely a very legit dog makes it way way better than any of these cases where we don't know.
Even if its a small cat like an ocelot or a bobcat, the possibility of the dog being a pampered pet means it could be absolutely nothing. Pampered wuss pet is actually the lowest of the low, lower than abused by far. Hence why the pampered wuss african lion got reemed out by 30 lbs bulldogs. Pampered wuss is totally completely debilitating. The impressive cat feats to me are the ones where the dogs definitely weren't pampered wusses. Those are few and far between.
I'm less impressed than you are by these hunting videos where a cat is being mauled by hunting dogs and maybe manages to get damage on one or two of the dogs. Its kind of cool and noble because the poor cat is being assailed by multiple dogs and and a guy is there its unfair and etc etc, it might be satisfying justice, but emotions aside it is not actually impressive from a coldly analytical perspective of combative prowess. Temporarily doing a little damage isn't actually winning. I've seen coyotes and foxes do the same, when being attacked by a pack of big tough dogs, it is wrong to get carried away and be like "well... if it was 1 dog imagine how much the fox would kick ass", no it would just die more quickly actually. That little opportunistic attack in the messy frenzy of the hunt while it was being mauled wasn't as significant as it might appear. Even if the dog maybe whines or screams in pain, it says nothing about a fight to me.
Some of the predation feats of leopards on dogs have been impressive. A wolfhound in Africa, again was likely at least a rugged farm dog if not a serious hunting dog. That is legit. A hardy hunting bull terrier gets snatched in one of the old 1800s books I like, can't remember which one off hand. Then the leopard dragging the alabai it killed, an alabai bigger than it. That was impressive. But yeah to me the jaguar against hercules and the other jaguar against multiple apbts and the circus leopard killing 2 boarhounds. They'd be my top 3 cat feats against good gripping dogs.
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Post by Bolushi on Sept 15, 2023 20:44:12 GMT
Dogos definitely do hunt pumas larger than themselves weighing around 60kgs though. We have videos of such hunts taking place and I believe I posted one in this thread, a fully grown mature male puma with a substantial prey base should be around 60kgs in some regions Dogos hunt them. Dogos do mix it up with smaller pumas too, but larger ones as well. Not South Patagonia sized, though they do hunt there. A theory with no evidence to it at all is that this video - Takes place in Southern Patagonia, and the reason they're using bailers and a Dogo as a lead-in catch dog is because running catch dogs wouldn't do so great running into a male cougar in areas like that? Just a hunch. Well we have seen what happens when a fierce male cougar confronts a dogo solo, not going to end well. That's probably why they use baying dogs in areas where cougars can get powerful, too risky for the chances to meet a strong male that would defeat the quarry. A female won't though. Looks like a female also visually smaller than the dogo too in the vid. By the way I've seen you on bestiary defending a picture I don't have right now as evidence of dogos hunting larger pumas - you know that those dogos didn't do anything to that cougar right? The guts of the cougar are very visible and the dogos (and those are pups too, except one is the mother I guess) are totally unscated and way smaller than that cat, I bet anything that none of those dogs, even together, would be a match for that big cougar to be fair. Yes, you'd want bay dogs if you're hunting amongst 68kg cougars. If a Dogo or Dogal ends up trying to fight a "Dark" or "El Loco" it's just not a viable practice since the catch dog will be killed instantly, if there's multiple catch dogs odds are they all die, and the hunt abandoned. Bay dogs are good because they allow you to pick and choose what your catch dog mixes it up with. You mean the image of the Dogos with scratches on their head next to a cougar with its entrails visible? To me it sounds like the Dogos caught the cat and the cat was stabbed, hence the entrails being visible. In hindsight that doesn't make so much sense since you'd want to stab it in the heart but could've been reckless, dunno. For the record I don't recall vouching for the validity of that picture, but don't see a reason why it wouldn't be legit? The Dogos are definitely legit, they've got scratches. Also wasn't using it as evidence of Dogos being used to hunt larger pumas... in fact I don't post that picture often at all. The best evidence for that is the video where the cougar is subjugated by a few Dogos and some Galgo Patagonico-esque dogs, and fucks up a Dogo's muzzle in the process. There's also "the other video" which is similar setting but 100x worse dogs. The forbidden fruit, but that looks like a 60kg cat. |
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