Dogo Argentino vs Cougar

[Deleted]

Persian leopard is too big IMO, 130lbs seems low for dominant male leopards, 130lbs is more African leopard size. Dominant male Persian leopards on the other hand are 150lbs+ and the Dogo would have no chance, but never fear...

[colein]

Jan 24, 2023 4:26:19 GMT Hardcastle said:

The aftermath of a field tested 111lb male dogo argentino that has taken 28 boars, multiple coyotes and a bobcats on his own a single puma:
www.reddit.com/r/Pumaconcolor/comments/11umwq0/the_danger_of_hunting_in_cougar_territory_coco_a/

The dog was completely destroyed. No, info on the gender or age of the Cougar that attacked the dogo but it was likely to have been around or less than 120lbs, likely less, as this is a south west US state. I've heard people say that a Pumas claws are ineffective to a dogo? By no means. The dog had a 7 inch laceration on its chest that went in several inches deep and was pooling blood like a broken faucet- The dog would have died without immediate medical intervention.

The Puma escaped from the situation unharmed. Despite this being a 100% field tested MALE dogo argentino of huge weight, it still got slaughtered by a Puma, and would've died without medical intervention. By the lacerations alone, which struck bone would've had the dog delirious from blood loss in under an hour. 3 hour surgery and multiple stitches and multiple days of long rest and assisted feeding/drinking by the owners kept the dog alive.

Dogos are strong dogs, they really are. But in a 1 on 1 scenario the Puma is probably going to win. I mean- think about it. This dog is a PROVEN unit, being able to subdue large boars ALONE 28 different times and come out relatively unharmed. YET 1 smallish Puma was all it took to kill it without medical intervention. To me, that sounds like Pumas are more dangerous game than boars are to any dog 1 on 1

[Hardcastle]

Mar 18, 2023 18:02:34 GMT colein said:

Jan 24, 2023 4:26:19 GMT Hardcastle said:

The aftermath of a field tested 111lb male dogo argentino that has taken 28 boars, multiple coyotes and a bobcats on his own a single puma:
www.reddit.com/r/Pumaconcolor/comments/11umwq0/the_danger_of_hunting_in_cougar_territory_coco_a/

The dog was completely destroyed. No, info on the gender or age of the Cougar that attacked the dogo but it was likely to have been around or less than 120lbs, likely less, as this is a south west US state. I've heard people say that a Pumas claws are ineffective to a dogo? By no means. The dog had a 7 inch laceration on its chest that went in several inches deep and was pooling blood like a broken faucet- The dog would have died without immediate medical intervention.

The Puma escaped from the situation unharmed. Despite this being a 100% field tested MALE dogo argentino of huge weight, it still got slaughtered by a Puma, and would've died without medical intervention. By the lacerations alone, which struck bone would've had the dog delirious from blood loss in under an hour. 3 hour surgery and multiple stitches and multiple days of long rest and assisted feeding/drinking by the owners kept the dog alive.

Dogos are strong dogs, they really are. But in a 1 on 1 scenario the Puma is probably going to win. I mean- think about it. This dog is a PROVEN unit, being able to subdue large boars ALONE 28 different times and come out relatively unharmed. YET 1 smallish Puma was all it took to kill it without medical intervention. To me, that sounds like Pumas are more dangerous game than boars are to any dog 1 on 1

I've talked about that case, elsewhere (copy and pasted)-
------

With that dogo vs cougar case, the extent and nature of the injuries make a few things clear to me.

 As gnarly and brutal as they look, if the cougar was dominant and winning the dogo wouldn't have those injuries. Being covered all over with lacerations and multiple bites... that is not how a puma "wins". If the puma was in control, the dogo would have one bite on it's neck or throat, and minimal claw injuries, a few superficial scuffs from where it was held down. Even if the dogo survived, but the puma was winning and ultimately abandoned it's kill attempt, the dog would likely have a swollen head and/or neck from internal bleeding in one area and that's about it. Basically, less injuries would be "more" for the cougar's case. These injuries are not indicative of a cougar trying to kill a dogo, rather a cougar being killed, unable to escape and fighting for it's life.  

Most of us have probably seen this video, of a puma attacking a doberman -


You can imagine the dog's injuries would have been very few and limited specifically to one spot of the dog's body. It's neck. There you would likely have found one bite wound, at most two from a possible re-grip, and a few little scratches maybe close by. That's what cat dominance will look like. This doberman was surely going to die in the next minute or so if a person didn't spook the puma. 

Cats are very efficient and precise killers. After they kill something, or even dominate something, it doesn't look like it's been put through a woodchipper. It will actually be difficult to find the neat puncture holes in usually one specific location. 

Even if the dog attacks but the cat does a quick furious display to ward off the attack and then escapes, you'll then maybe have more scratches and maybe a bite or two, but still nothing like we see in that dogo. That was definitely a case of the dogo preventing the cougar's escape for an extended period of time, and the cat desperately fighting for it's life.

I disagree with 1 minute, I'd say several minutes for sure. And yes funnily enough the dogo's extensive and severe injuries indicate it was winning. If the cougar was winning the dogo would have 1 main injury, if the cougar even did a good job of fending off or minimising the dogo's assault it would have escaped long before it had time to accumulate those injuries. 

I see those injuries, and I actually see a cat that must have had a very very very bad time. 

I think the dogo who was saved in the cage fight against a large male cougar may not have had severe injuries like this at all, it may have been saved from an efficient neck hold and had minimal injuries. 

The dog that definitely would have had multiple severe injuries, like this, would be "Hercules", the fighting bulldog that died fighting a jaguar in San Francisco. I say that because Hercules was winning, for a long time, before eventually succumbing to his injuries. He would have looked like he went through a wood chipper. That is when damage will be accumulated like that. 

I agree with the owner who says the injuries to the puma may have been fatal. Adrenaline might give it the boost to break away and find a hiding spot, but it may not be out of the woods just yet. I've actually "saved" a stray cat from my dogs when I was young, my staffy x and elderly pig dog cross were stretching one out and it was making terrible noises and I managed to force them to let go just for a split second and long enough for the cat spring away and scale up the wall of a shed disappearing into the night. Well, "save" had the quotation marks around it because there was soon a gross smell and that cat was found dead in the ceiling of that shed. Not saying it's certain the puma died in this case, just saying the extent of the injuries to the dogo mean all the more time the cougar spent being manhandled, so it's possible. 

-----------

You left out the part where the owner specifically says the puma was anything but "unharmed" -

"He encountered and battled a mountain lion last night while on a hog hunt. He was badly wounded. He badly wounded the lion, likely mortally."

Also where a vet estimated the size of the puma based on the width of the canine tooth puncture holes and estimated 130 - 150 lbs, which would also have been my guess, because yes, obviously a lot of force was generated in the pumas desperate retaliations to its assault. More than is typical in dogo vs puma encounters or even detailed and described by leopard/Panther vs dog encounters from British India.

That was a large cougar, larger than the dog, and it did a hell of a job in making that dog pay for attacking it, but the nature and extent of the injuries actually indicate the dog was controlling the puma and preventing it's escape. These are all injuries indicative of defense rather than offense from the puma. It was being attacked and it struggled to escape for a good while. Ultimately it succeeded in escaping, with unknown damage, speculated to be bad by the guy who was there. I'm open to that and open to little damage, either way the dogo was the one pushing it's offense and preventing the puma's escape. The injuries make that obvious.

[Bolushi]

Mar 18, 2023 18:02:34 GMT colein said:

Jan 24, 2023 4:26:19 GMT Hardcastle said:

The aftermath of a field tested 111lb male dogo argentino that has taken 28 boars, multiple coyotes and a bobcats on his own a single puma:
www.reddit.com/r/Pumaconcolor/comments/11umwq0/the_danger_of_hunting_in_cougar_territory_coco_a/

The dog was completely destroyed. No, info on the gender or age of the Cougar that attacked the dogo but it was likely to have been around or less than 120lbs, likely less, as this is a south west US state. I've heard people say that a Pumas claws are ineffective to a dogo? By no means. The dog had a 7 inch laceration on its chest that went in several inches deep and was pooling blood like a broken faucet- The dog would have died without immediate medical intervention.

The Puma escaped from the situation unharmed. Despite this being a 100% field tested MALE dogo argentino of huge weight, it still got slaughtered by a Puma, and would've died without medical intervention. By the lacerations alone, which struck bone would've had the dog delirious from blood loss in under an hour. 3 hour surgery and multiple stitches and multiple days of long rest and assisted feeding/drinking by the owners kept the dog alive.

Dogos are strong dogs, they really are. But in a 1 on 1 scenario the Puma is probably going to win. I mean- think about it. This dog is a PROVEN unit, being able to subdue large boars ALONE 28 different times and come out relatively unharmed. YET 1 smallish Puma was all it took to kill it without medical intervention. To me, that sounds like Pumas are more dangerous game than boars are to any dog 1 on 1

I posted this myself, did you see me post it on wildanimalwarfare?
I was using it as pro-Dogo evidence. It is pro-Dogo, as this is a total accident with a dog that NEVER got any cougar training, dealing with a cougar likely far larger than it for those gashes to be that severe. (This is what more typical injuries look like)




Yet the Dogo is still gaining a dominant position. In a hunting scenario in Argentina, with a cougar of this magnitude, this Dogo would've survived until its backup in the form of other dogs arrived. The Dogo performed beyond my expectations. How you are painting this as pro-cougar is totally strange.
A running catch dog fights a far larger big cat for many minutes on end, to which you go "Aha! Look at how this Dogo almost died!!!" Wh- what?
Who said a cougar couldn't kill or seriously wound a Dogo? They are most definitely not more dangerous than boars, who can juggle dogs around, bash them into trees, slice open and kill a rednose pitbull like it's not even there...
Once a cougar is on the ground if it's average sized the Dogo will probably work it over and kill it more often than not. In Argentina where packs of dogs are more commonplace it's abundantly clear, boars can fight multiple dogs while cougars cannot. They get toppled by one dog, and then once the others arrive it gets piled on.
Guanaco and red deer are easy. Cougars are somewhere in-between "easy" and "medium". Boars are "hard" if they're mean experienced boars bursting with testosterone ready to smash predators. There is a lot of variety in boars.

[Bolushi]

Nothing makes my dick deflate more than reading reddit comment sections BTW.

[colein]

Mar 19, 2023 2:38:29 GMT Hardcastle said:

Mar 18, 2023 18:02:34 GMT colein said:

The aftermath of a field tested 111lb male dogo argentino that has taken 28 boars, multiple coyotes and a bobcats on his own a single puma:
www.reddit.com/r/Pumaconcolor/comments/11umwq0/the_danger_of_hunting_in_cougar_territory_coco_a/

The dog was completely destroyed. No, info on the gender or age of the Cougar that attacked the dogo but it was likely to have been around or less than 120lbs, likely less, as this is a south west US state. I've heard people say that a Pumas claws are ineffective to a dogo? By no means. The dog had a 7 inch laceration on its chest that went in several inches deep and was pooling blood like a broken faucet- The dog would have died without immediate medical intervention.

The Puma escaped from the situation unharmed. Despite this being a 100% field tested MALE dogo argentino of huge weight, it still got slaughtered by a Puma, and would've died without medical intervention. By the lacerations alone, which struck bone would've had the dog delirious from blood loss in under an hour. 3 hour surgery and multiple stitches and multiple days of long rest and assisted feeding/drinking by the owners kept the dog alive.

Dogos are strong dogs, they really are. But in a 1 on 1 scenario the Puma is probably going to win. I mean- think about it. This dog is a PROVEN unit, being able to subdue large boars ALONE 28 different times and come out relatively unharmed. YET 1 smallish Puma was all it took to kill it without medical intervention. To me, that sounds like Pumas are more dangerous game than boars are to any dog 1 on 1

I've talked about that case, elsewhere (copy and pasted)-
------

With that dogo vs cougar case, the extent and nature of the injuries make a few things clear to me.

 As gnarly and brutal as they look, if the cougar was dominant and winning the dogo wouldn't have those injuries. Being covered all over with lacerations and multiple bites... that is not how a puma "wins". If the puma was in control, the dogo would have one bite on it's neck or throat, and minimal claw injuries, a few superficial scuffs from where it was held down. Even if the dogo survived, but the puma was winning and ultimately abandoned it's kill attempt, the dog would likely have a swollen head and/or neck from internal bleeding in one area and that's about it. Basically, less injuries would be "more" for the cougar's case. These injuries are not indicative of a cougar trying to kill a dogo, rather a cougar being killed, unable to escape and fighting for it's life.  

Most of us have probably seen this video, of a puma attacking a doberman -


You can imagine the dog's injuries would have been very few and limited specifically to one spot of the dog's body. It's neck. There you would likely have found one bite wound, at most two from a possible re-grip, and a few little scratches maybe close by. That's what cat dominance will look like. This doberman was surely going to die in the next minute or so if a person didn't spook the puma. 

Cats are very efficient and precise killers. After they kill something, or even dominate something, it doesn't look like it's been put through a woodchipper. It will actually be difficult to find the neat puncture holes in usually one specific location. 

Even if the dog attacks but the cat does a quick furious display to ward off the attack and then escapes, you'll then maybe have more scratches and maybe a bite or two, but still nothing like we see in that dogo. That was definitely a case of the dogo preventing the cougar's escape for an extended period of time, and the cat desperately fighting for it's life.

I disagree with 1 minute, I'd say several minutes for sure. And yes funnily enough the dogo's extensive and severe injuries indicate it was winning. If the cougar was winning the dogo would have 1 main injury, if the cougar even did a good job of fending off or minimising the dogo's assault it would have escaped long before it had time to accumulate those injuries. 

I see those injuries, and I actually see a cat that must have had a very very very bad time. 

I think the dogo who was saved in the cage fight against a large male cougar may not have had severe injuries like this at all, it may have been saved from an efficient neck hold and had minimal injuries. 

The dog that definitely would have had multiple severe injuries, like this, would be "Hercules", the fighting bulldog that died fighting a jaguar in San Francisco. I say that because Hercules was winning, for a long time, before eventually succumbing to his injuries. He would have looked like he went through a wood chipper. That is when damage will be accumulated like that. 

I agree with the owner who says the injuries to the puma may have been fatal. Adrenaline might give it the boost to break away and find a hiding spot, but it may not be out of the woods just yet. I've actually "saved" a stray cat from my dogs when I was young, my staffy x and elderly pig dog cross were stretching one out and it was making terrible noises and I managed to force them to let go just for a split second and long enough for the cat spring away and scale up the wall of a shed disappearing into the night. Well, "save" had the quotation marks around it because there was soon a gross smell and that cat was found dead in the ceiling of that shed. Not saying it's certain the puma died in this case, just saying the extent of the injuries to the dogo mean all the more time the cougar spent being manhandled, so it's possible. 

-----------

You left out the part where the owner specifically says the puma was anything but "unharmed" -

"He encountered and battled a mountain lion last night while on a hog hunt. He was badly wounded. He badly wounded the lion, likely mortally."

Also where a vet estimated the size of the puma based on the width of the canine tooth puncture holes and estimated 130 - 150 lbs, which would also have been my guess, because yes, obviously a lot of force was generated in the pumas desperate retaliations to its assault. More than is typical in dogo vs puma encounters or even detailed and described by leopard/Panther vs dog encounters from British India.

That was a large cougar, larger than the dog, and it did a hell of a job in making that dog pay for attacking it, but the nature and extent of the injuries actually indicate the dog was controlling the puma and preventing it's escape. These are all injuries indicative of defense rather than offense from the puma. It was being attacked and it struggled to escape for a good while. Ultimately it succeeded in escaping, with unknown damage, speculated to be bad by the guy who was there. I'm open to that and open to little damage, either way the dogo was the one pushing it's offense and preventing the puma's escape. The injuries make that obvious.

The vets that estimated the Cougars size were going off of "canine width" by somehow measuring bite wounds on the dog (?)

Totally unreliable, because they are just bite Mark's on the dog, there is no way to get information out of bite wounds, a 150lb Puma, I can assure you would've killed this dog, very easily. A 150lb Puma is a different animal, a Cougar 150lb could control the dogs entire body and body slam it by upper body strength alone. Plus, this is a south west US state with hogs... Cougar's in Hog country typically aren't very large, they average about 55-60kgs 60kgs soaking wet and on a good day. The vast majority of male Pumas from Texas for example hover around 45-55kgs for fully mature adults. A 68kg male Puma from Dallas (texas) would be gargantuan, no way was it 150lbs based purely off of the fact that 1. The dog is alive. And 2. That it is improbable given the environment.

Plus this isn't a researcher or a biologist that works with Pumas, this is a vet that works on dogs and other house pets. They don't know anything about Pumas and what their measurements mean, they probably looked it up on the internet and made a false prediction.

The bite wounds on the dog actually indicate that it was a relatively young (though not small) Puma. Bite wounds on the chest is definitely something a 1 1/2 to 2 year old Puma would do. An adult is going straight for the neck and skull. The dog had ZERO damaged to its neck and face, which actually show that the dogo wasn't in control at all, otherwise the Puma would've been desperately clawing its face to make it release its bite- if it had one in at all. But the worse lacerations are on the lower chest and left leg, which can only have been possible if the dog was ON THE GROUND with the Puma. Its left leg having such a terrible laceration wouldn't be possible if the dog was over the Puma and the Puma frantically defending itself.

Based on the wounds I'd say the dogo charged the Puma and was in control for a bit, maybe it had a bite on the shoulder or chest of the young Puma before the the puma quickly turned the tables on it and got it to the ground where it did most of its damage by raking and biting at the chest and lower legs.

The fact that the dog has major damage from the claws doesn't indicate that the dog was winning at all- but rather that the PUMA was winning, but abandoned the attack because it was confronted and attacked and simply wanted to get away so it turned into a blender cut the dog to ribbons and ran off, leaving the dog in the dire state that it was in. It most certaintly could've killed the dog, but wasn't interested in doing so, it just wanted to get away, winning or not.

The video of the doberman you can also see the Cougar clawing the dogs chest and abdomen (the dogo was likely in a similar situation) despite being the dominant one 100%. The difference between that situation and this one is that the doberman was a predatory situation and this one was a blindsided likely ambush from the dog. Which is obviously going to yield a different offense response from the Puma. Just because the dog was clawed up bad doesn't mean it was winning at all.

The owner of the dog never even saw the Puma, of course he'd say that lol. I'd be surprised if the Puma even had wounds to lick after the encounter, it likely escaped totally unharmed, because the encounter was a few minutes at best. And by "few minutes" I mean 1-2 minutes. Dogos also notoriously have poor killing ability, even if you wanted to believe that the Puma was being "killed" (which is ridiculous) than you'd have to work out how the dog even managed to do any significant damage in under 2 minutes. Not to mention boar hounds are usually given protective vests and collars to we don't even know to what extant the dog was aided in combat by its body armor.

Here's probably how it went down:

Dog ambushed the Puma, the puma quickly turns the tables on the dog and gets it on the ground (as indicated by the lacerations to the lower chest and left hind leg) where it bit and mauled its chest while the dog either had a harmless bite in (shoulder, chest, forearm) or was simply flailing about trying to escape. From there the Puma likely saw a opportunity to escape and quickly bolted out of there- likely in fear of the human hunters and numerous other dogs.

That's the most realistic scenario.

[colein]

Mar 19, 2023 11:16:25 GMT Bolushi said:

Mar 18, 2023 18:02:34 GMT colein said:

The aftermath of a field tested 111lb male dogo argentino that has taken 28 boars, multiple coyotes and a bobcats on his own a single puma:
www.reddit.com/r/Pumaconcolor/comments/11umwq0/the_danger_of_hunting_in_cougar_territory_coco_a/

The dog was completely destroyed. No, info on the gender or age of the Cougar that attacked the dogo but it was likely to have been around or less than 120lbs, likely less, as this is a south west US state. I've heard people say that a Pumas claws are ineffective to a dogo? By no means. The dog had a 7 inch laceration on its chest that went in several inches deep and was pooling blood like a broken faucet- The dog would have died without immediate medical intervention.

The Puma escaped from the situation unharmed. Despite this being a 100% field tested MALE dogo argentino of huge weight, it still got slaughtered by a Puma, and would've died without medical intervention. By the lacerations alone, which struck bone would've had the dog delirious from blood loss in under an hour. 3 hour surgery and multiple stitches and multiple days of long rest and assisted feeding/drinking by the owners kept the dog alive.

Dogos are strong dogs, they really are. But in a 1 on 1 scenario the Puma is probably going to win. I mean- think about it. This dog is a PROVEN unit, being able to subdue large boars ALONE 28 different times and come out relatively unharmed. YET 1 smallish Puma was all it took to kill it without medical intervention. To me, that sounds like Pumas are more dangerous game than boars are to any dog 1 on 1

I posted this myself, did you see me post it on wildanimalwarfare?
I was using it as pro-Dogo evidence. It is pro-Dogo, as this is a total accident with a dog that NEVER got any cougar training, dealing with a cougar likely far larger than it for those gashes to be that severe. (This is what more typical injuries look like)




Yet the Dogo is still gaining a dominant position. In a hunting scenario in Argentina, with a cougar of this magnitude, this Dogo would've survived until its backup in the form of other dogs arrived. The Dogo performed beyond my expectations. How you are painting this as pro-cougar is totally strange.
A running catch dog fights a far larger big cat for many minutes on end, to which you go "Aha! Look at how this Dogo almost died!!!" Wh- what?
Who said a cougar couldn't kill or seriously wound a Dogo? They are most definitely not more dangerous than boars, who can juggle dogs around, bash them into trees, slice open and kill a rednose pitbull like it's not even there...
Once a cougar is on the ground if it's average sized the Dogo will probably work it over and kill it more often than not. In Argentina where packs of dogs are more commonplace it's abundantly clear, boars can fight multiple dogs while cougars cannot. They get toppled by one dog, and then once the others arrive it gets piled on.
Guanaco and red deer are easy. Cougars are somewhere in-between "easy" and "medium". Boars are "hard" if they're mean experienced boars bursting with testosterone ready to smash predators. There is a lot of variety in boars.

Oh look, it's the golden retriever guy again lol. I don't care to what extant your delusions make you fabricate ridiculous stories in your head. Believe what you want, the average Puma would most certaintly kill your dog, but it would be a fight, I'll say that much.

Maybe the day we see a mature male Puma and a dogo in a cage with the Puma's claws and teeth intact and witness the dogo being utterly dominated to no end you'll finally concede. But you hide behind pictures with no stories and you contort reality to your desired vision.

[Bolushi]

Mar 19, 2023 16:36:21 GMT colein said:

Mar 19, 2023 11:16:25 GMT Bolushi said:

I posted this myself, did you see me post it on wildanimalwarfare?
I was using it as pro-Dogo evidence. It is pro-Dogo, as this is a total accident with a dog that NEVER got any cougar training, dealing with a cougar likely far larger than it for those gashes to be that severe. (This is what more typical injuries look like)




Yet the Dogo is still gaining a dominant position. In a hunting scenario in Argentina, with a cougar of this magnitude, this Dogo would've survived until its backup in the form of other dogs arrived. The Dogo performed beyond my expectations. How you are painting this as pro-cougar is totally strange.
A running catch dog fights a far larger big cat for many minutes on end, to which you go "Aha! Look at how this Dogo almost died!!!" Wh- what?
Who said a cougar couldn't kill or seriously wound a Dogo? They are most definitely not more dangerous than boars, who can juggle dogs around, bash them into trees, slice open and kill a rednose pitbull like it's not even there...
Once a cougar is on the ground if it's average sized the Dogo will probably work it over and kill it more often than not. In Argentina where packs of dogs are more commonplace it's abundantly clear, boars can fight multiple dogs while cougars cannot. They get toppled by one dog, and then once the others arrive it gets piled on.
Guanaco and red deer are easy. Cougars are somewhere in-between "easy" and "medium". Boars are "hard" if they're mean experienced boars bursting with testosterone ready to smash predators. There is a lot of variety in boars.

Oh look, it's the golden retriever guy again lol. I don't care to what extant your delusions make you fabricate ridiculous stories in your head. Believe what you want, the average Puma would most certaintly kill your dog, but it would be a fight, I'll say that much.

Maybe the day we see a mature male Puma and a dogo in a cage with the Puma's claws and teeth intact and witness the dogo being utterly dominated to no end you'll finally concede. But you hide behind pictures with no stories and you contort reality to your desired vision.

Why do you think Dogos are being put in cages? Out of everyone here I am the most familiar with these events. You have no proof the cougars don't have their weapons and the pictures prove that.
I have seen Dogos with scratch wounds that look like house cat scratch wounds. Show cougar claws hurting another carnivore.
You have no proof? You lose. Done deal. Show sources with supporting evidence so you stand out from every other cat fan.

[Bolushi]

Mar 19, 2023 16:25:30 GMT colein said:

Mar 19, 2023 2:38:29 GMT Hardcastle said:

I've talked about that case, elsewhere (copy and pasted)-
------

With that dogo vs cougar case, the extent and nature of the injuries make a few things clear to me.

 As gnarly and brutal as they look, if the cougar was dominant and winning the dogo wouldn't have those injuries. Being covered all over with lacerations and multiple bites... that is not how a puma "wins". If the puma was in control, the dogo would have one bite on it's neck or throat, and minimal claw injuries, a few superficial scuffs from where it was held down. Even if the dogo survived, but the puma was winning and ultimately abandoned it's kill attempt, the dog would likely have a swollen head and/or neck from internal bleeding in one area and that's about it. Basically, less injuries would be "more" for the cougar's case. These injuries are not indicative of a cougar trying to kill a dogo, rather a cougar being killed, unable to escape and fighting for it's life.  

Most of us have probably seen this video, of a puma attacking a doberman -


You can imagine the dog's injuries would have been very few and limited specifically to one spot of the dog's body. It's neck. There you would likely have found one bite wound, at most two from a possible re-grip, and a few little scratches maybe close by. That's what cat dominance will look like. This doberman was surely going to die in the next minute or so if a person didn't spook the puma. 

Cats are very efficient and precise killers. After they kill something, or even dominate something, it doesn't look like it's been put through a woodchipper. It will actually be difficult to find the neat puncture holes in usually one specific location. 

Even if the dog attacks but the cat does a quick furious display to ward off the attack and then escapes, you'll then maybe have more scratches and maybe a bite or two, but still nothing like we see in that dogo. That was definitely a case of the dogo preventing the cougar's escape for an extended period of time, and the cat desperately fighting for it's life.

I disagree with 1 minute, I'd say several minutes for sure. And yes funnily enough the dogo's extensive and severe injuries indicate it was winning. If the cougar was winning the dogo would have 1 main injury, if the cougar even did a good job of fending off or minimising the dogo's assault it would have escaped long before it had time to accumulate those injuries. 

I see those injuries, and I actually see a cat that must have had a very very very bad time. 

I think the dogo who was saved in the cage fight against a large male cougar may not have had severe injuries like this at all, it may have been saved from an efficient neck hold and had minimal injuries. 

The dog that definitely would have had multiple severe injuries, like this, would be "Hercules", the fighting bulldog that died fighting a jaguar in San Francisco. I say that because Hercules was winning, for a long time, before eventually succumbing to his injuries. He would have looked like he went through a wood chipper. That is when damage will be accumulated like that. 

I agree with the owner who says the injuries to the puma may have been fatal. Adrenaline might give it the boost to break away and find a hiding spot, but it may not be out of the woods just yet. I've actually "saved" a stray cat from my dogs when I was young, my staffy x and elderly pig dog cross were stretching one out and it was making terrible noises and I managed to force them to let go just for a split second and long enough for the cat spring away and scale up the wall of a shed disappearing into the night. Well, "save" had the quotation marks around it because there was soon a gross smell and that cat was found dead in the ceiling of that shed. Not saying it's certain the puma died in this case, just saying the extent of the injuries to the dogo mean all the more time the cougar spent being manhandled, so it's possible. 

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You left out the part where the owner specifically says the puma was anything but "unharmed" -

"He encountered and battled a mountain lion last night while on a hog hunt. He was badly wounded. He badly wounded the lion, likely mortally."

Also where a vet estimated the size of the puma based on the width of the canine tooth puncture holes and estimated 130 - 150 lbs, which would also have been my guess, because yes, obviously a lot of force was generated in the pumas desperate retaliations to its assault. More than is typical in dogo vs puma encounters or even detailed and described by leopard/Panther vs dog encounters from British India.

That was a large cougar, larger than the dog, and it did a hell of a job in making that dog pay for attacking it, but the nature and extent of the injuries actually indicate the dog was controlling the puma and preventing it's escape. These are all injuries indicative of defense rather than offense from the puma. It was being attacked and it struggled to escape for a good while. Ultimately it succeeded in escaping, with unknown damage, speculated to be bad by the guy who was there. I'm open to that and open to little damage, either way the dogo was the one pushing it's offense and preventing the puma's escape. The injuries make that obvious.

The vets that estimated the Cougars size were going off of "canine width" by somehow measuring bite wounds on the dog (?)

Totally unreliable, because they are just bite Mark's on the dog, there is no way to get information out of bite wounds, a 150lb Puma, I can assure you would've killed this dog, very easily. A 150lb Puma is a different animal, a Cougar 150lb could control the dogs entire body and body slam it by upper body strength alone. Plus, this is a south west US state with hogs... Cougar's in Hog country typically aren't very large, they average about 55-60kgs 60kgs soaking wet and on a good day. The vast majority of male Pumas from Texas for example hover around 45-55kgs for fully mature adults. A 68kg male Puma from Dallas (texas) would be gargantuan, no way was it 150lbs based purely off of the fact that 1. The dog is alive. And 2. That it is improbable given the environment.

Plus this isn't a researcher or a biologist that works with Pumas, this is a vet that works on dogs and other house pets. They don't know anything about Pumas and what their measurements mean, they probably looked it up on the internet and made a false prediction.

The bite wounds on the dog actually indicate that it was a relatively young (though not small) Puma. Bite wounds on the chest is definitely something a 1 1/2 to 2 year old Puma would do. An adult is going straight for the neck and skull. The dog had ZERO damaged to its neck and face, which actually show that the dogo wasn't in control at all, otherwise the Puma would've been desperately clawing its face to make it release its bite- if it had one in at all. But the worse lacerations are on the lower chest and left leg, which can only have been possible if the dog was ON THE GROUND with the Puma. Its left leg having such a terrible laceration wouldn't be possible if the dog was over the Puma and the Puma frantically defending itself.

Based on the wounds I'd say the dogo charged the Puma and was in control for a bit, maybe it had a bite on the shoulder or chest of the young Puma before the the puma quickly turned the tables on it and got it to the ground where it did most of its damage by raking and biting at the chest and lower legs.

The fact that the dog has major damage from the claws doesn't indicate that the dog was winning at all- but rather that the PUMA was winning, but abandoned the attack because it was confronted and attacked and simply wanted to get away so it turned into a blender cut the dog to ribbons and ran off, leaving the dog in the dire state that it was in. It most certaintly could've killed the dog, but wasn't interested in doing so, it just wanted to get away, winning or not.

The video of the doberman you can also see the Cougar clawing the dogs chest and abdomen (the dogo was likely in a similar situation) despite being the dominant one 100%. The difference between that situation and this one is that the doberman was a predatory situation and this one was a blindsided likely ambush from the dog. Which is obviously going to yield a different offense response from the Puma. Just because the dog was clawed up bad doesn't mean it was winning at all.

The owner of the dog never even saw the Puma, of course he'd say that lol. I'd be surprised if the Puma even had wounds to lick after the encounter, it likely escaped totally unharmed, because the encounter was a few minutes at best. And by "few minutes" I mean 1-2 minutes. Dogos also notoriously have poor killing ability, even if you wanted to believe that the Puma was being "killed" (which is ridiculous) than you'd have to work out how the dog even managed to do any significant damage in under 2 minutes. Not to mention boar hounds are usually given protective vests and collars to we don't even know to what extant the dog was aided in combat by its body armor.

Here's probably how it went down:

Dog ambushed the Puma, the puma quickly turns the tables on the dog and gets it on the ground (as indicated by the lacerations to the lower chest and left hind leg) where it bit and mauled its chest while the dog either had a harmless bite in (shoulder, chest, forearm) or was simply flailing about trying to escape. From there the Puma likely saw a opportunity to escape and quickly bolted out of there- likely in fear of the human hunters and numerous other dogs.

That's the most realistic scenario.

Any pet Dogo would kill that cougar and break the chain to do it. That is what we are to take from the Doberman not dying instantly. Had that been a Dogo your Doberman is dead.

[colein]

Mar 19, 2023 17:14:08 GMT Bolushi said:

Mar 19, 2023 16:25:30 GMT colein said:

The vets that estimated the Cougars size were going off of "canine width" by somehow measuring bite wounds on the dog (?)

Totally unreliable, because they are just bite Mark's on the dog, there is no way to get information out of bite wounds, a 150lb Puma, I can assure you would've killed this dog, very easily. A 150lb Puma is a different animal, a Cougar 150lb could control the dogs entire body and body slam it by upper body strength alone. Plus, this is a south west US state with hogs... Cougar's in Hog country typically aren't very large, they average about 55-60kgs 60kgs soaking wet and on a good day. The vast majority of male Pumas from Texas for example hover around 45-55kgs for fully mature adults. A 68kg male Puma from Dallas (texas) would be gargantuan, no way was it 150lbs based purely off of the fact that 1. The dog is alive. And 2. That it is improbable given the environment.

Plus this isn't a researcher or a biologist that works with Pumas, this is a vet that works on dogs and other house pets. They don't know anything about Pumas and what their measurements mean, they probably looked it up on the internet and made a false prediction.

The bite wounds on the dog actually indicate that it was a relatively young (though not small) Puma. Bite wounds on the chest is definitely something a 1 1/2 to 2 year old Puma would do. An adult is going straight for the neck and skull. The dog had ZERO damaged to its neck and face, which actually show that the dogo wasn't in control at all, otherwise the Puma would've been desperately clawing its face to make it release its bite- if it had one in at all. But the worse lacerations are on the lower chest and left leg, which can only have been possible if the dog was ON THE GROUND with the Puma. Its left leg having such a terrible laceration wouldn't be possible if the dog was over the Puma and the Puma frantically defending itself.

Based on the wounds I'd say the dogo charged the Puma and was in control for a bit, maybe it had a bite on the shoulder or chest of the young Puma before the the puma quickly turned the tables on it and got it to the ground where it did most of its damage by raking and biting at the chest and lower legs.

The fact that the dog has major damage from the claws doesn't indicate that the dog was winning at all- but rather that the PUMA was winning, but abandoned the attack because it was confronted and attacked and simply wanted to get away so it turned into a blender cut the dog to ribbons and ran off, leaving the dog in the dire state that it was in. It most certaintly could've killed the dog, but wasn't interested in doing so, it just wanted to get away, winning or not.

The video of the doberman you can also see the Cougar clawing the dogs chest and abdomen (the dogo was likely in a similar situation) despite being the dominant one 100%. The difference between that situation and this one is that the doberman was a predatory situation and this one was a blindsided likely ambush from the dog. Which is obviously going to yield a different offense response from the Puma. Just because the dog was clawed up bad doesn't mean it was winning at all.

The owner of the dog never even saw the Puma, of course he'd say that lol. I'd be surprised if the Puma even had wounds to lick after the encounter, it likely escaped totally unharmed, because the encounter was a few minutes at best. And by "few minutes" I mean 1-2 minutes. Dogos also notoriously have poor killing ability, even if you wanted to believe that the Puma was being "killed" (which is ridiculous) than you'd have to work out how the dog even managed to do any significant damage in under 2 minutes. Not to mention boar hounds are usually given protective vests and collars to we don't even know to what extant the dog was aided in combat by its body armor.

Here's probably how it went down:

Dog ambushed the Puma, the puma quickly turns the tables on the dog and gets it on the ground (as indicated by the lacerations to the lower chest and left hind leg) where it bit and mauled its chest while the dog either had a harmless bite in (shoulder, chest, forearm) or was simply flailing about trying to escape. From there the Puma likely saw a opportunity to escape and quickly bolted out of there- likely in fear of the human hunters and numerous other dogs.

That's the most realistic scenario.

Any pet Dogo would kill that cougar and break the chain to do it. That is what we are to take from the Doberman not dying instantly. Had that been a Dogo your Doberman is dead.

That's cool, the dogo would break the chain just to feed the Puma? How generous. A nice steamy, stupid meals on wheels. It'd run in there and get subdued all the same, and a dogo would spend 40 minutes trying to kill that doberman, meanwhile a Puma would've got the job done in 2 1/2 minutes without the metal chain.

Some dogos look like they were cut by housecats despite being "pitted" against "Pumas"? Yeah, put 2 and 2 together captain moron. They are putting them against cubs, or declawed specimens that have stubs of what used to be their claws to still somewhat cut- but not CUT OPEN like a wild Puma would, as can be seen with the dogo in the reddit post above. Which was cut to ribbons. Doesn't indicate the Puma was large at all by any means, it simply means that the Puma actually had its claws and you for the first time in your life saw what damage they could actually do.

Here's the damage a glancing blow from a sub adult female Puma can do to a person:

http://instagram.com/p/Cpfo4JrJsAL

Only one claw connected and it was a glancing slash. Yet look at how deep and severe thet wound is. It cut him open like a fucking knife through butter. Imagine if you were getting actively mauled by a Puma and they were cutting you up with their claws connecting fully each time with your skin? You'd be unrecognizable in about 6 seconds. The meat of your body would be hanging out, blood absolutely everywhere. A pumas claws are fucking LETHAL, no matter if it's a 70lb female, or a 150lb male- of which the claws of a 150lb male would borderline decapitate you.

The wounds on that working dogo is about what you should expect from an intact Puma. Expect the wounds to be just as if not significantly more lethal. There is a reason they are declawed in baiting fights.

If the Puma was larger than the dog it would've outright killed it. Nothing the dog could've done.

[Bolushi]

All of the dogs I've ever known or owned would turn that Doberman into mincemeat. Dobermans are the worst dog pound for pound. And your cougar ambushed a delirious sleepy Doberman, was larger than the dog obviously as they were the same height (perhaps 100 vs 130lbs) and it took 2 fucking minutes to fail its kill and not even do any sort of mortal damage. And the Doberman lived. So yeah go fuck yourself you dumbass.
"the claws of a 150lb male would borderline decapitate you."

[Bolushi]

Was going to wait until I got home to post this but figured eh... why bother?

Here's Dogos and similar on problem cougars, this isn't meant to be used as an argument for the Dogo since obviously a pack of gripping dogs will win always. Just some stuff I found while searching... extensively. Also some bonus pictures I got.

"Function.. and another harmful one... This time the cougar defended itself nicely, mouth to mouth that cost the dog two broken incisors and a very hurt nose. ,but always forward."
streamable.com/k6j5nw
Here's the video file for those who want to download it so it doesn't get lost in time.
FDownloader.Net - 2770199716330279360p.mp4 (1.93 MB)

And here's another video that shows some dogs killing pumas and the file for it - 
streamable.com/k6cxq7
FDownloader.Net - 1141400699328150360p.mp4 (659.32 KB)

Attachments:

[Wyatt]

Jun 5, 2023 2:16:26 GMT Bolushi said:

Was going to wait until I got home to post this but figured eh... why bother?

Here's Dogos and similar on problem cougars, this isn't meant to be used as an argument for the Dogo since obviously a pack of gripping dogs will win always. Just some stuff I found while searching... extensively. Also some bonus pictures I got.

"Function.. and another harmful one... This time the cougar defended itself nicely, mouth to mouth that cost the dog two broken incisors and a very hurt nose. ,but always forward."
streamable.com/k6j5nw
Here's the video file for those who want to download it so it doesn't get lost in time.
View Attachment

And here's another video that shows some dogs killing pumas and the file for it - 
streamable.com/k6cxq7
View Attachment

2 to 4 gripping dogs are what you need for a fair match. When you get into the numbers like 10-15, thats when the pack starts to get useless and actually worse.

Like African Wild Dogs and Dholes are great with numbers, and every individual belongs to its pack the same way an ant would to its colony.

[Bolushi]

Working traplines - 

Attachments:

[Bolushi]

kevin
What are your thoughts on this one?