Dogo Argentino vs Cougar

[grippingwhiteness]

Sept 27, 2023 16:20:34 GMT Hardcastle said:

Sept 26, 2023 15:33:31 GMT grippingwhiteness said:

First point : He acts as if a dogo in the 40-50 kg range would best a cougar all the time as if the cat ain't shit, that's wrong. A cougar is not a bobcat, at parity a powerful male cougar giving the best resistance CAN and HAS defeated a dogo at parity according to instances I've already described. The (paw trapped)cougar tearing apart and mauling the visually same sized dogo's face in less than 20 seconds is the proof; the cougar defeating the visually same sized 36 kg dogo (for which I personally estimate it to be 40-43 kgs at best) by apparently subduing it with its forelimbs while delivering a killing neck bite and the cage fight Bolushi noted me where the cougar managed to shake off it the dogo with rear rakes and then go mouth to mouth with the dogo with the dogo's face being also severely torn are good examples .

Good examples confirming that cougars giving the best they can against same sized dogos CAN result to them defeating the dogs. Which were no culls. If cougars weren't. A 45-50 kg cougar, if it gives the BEST resistance it can, its performance aftermath will range from severely maiming to even defeating a dogo. Sure it won't probably happen all the time, it's not a videogame where a character of said level can't defeat another character of said level because game codes say it was designed to beat that opponent just after it reached level 90 or something. Results vary. But anyone doubting the fact a 40-45 kg cougar can severely maim or defeat a rugged dogo is either uneducated, stupid or ignorant when you look at all the instances available.

I think a 40-50 kg cougar can "win" but probably not in a dominant fashion. From the bottom with raking damage anything is possible, but I think there is a very high tendency for dogo vs puma in this weight range to quickly, usually immediately, turn into a case where the dog is sprawled over the cat pinning and mauling it.

I haven't seen one or two cases, I've seen 30+. Its typically what happens. Yes I'm not discounting the pen fights because I don't see any reason to. Big pumas win pen fights. As do Jaguars against multiple foes. It doesn't make much difference because it is simply a test of power between two animals that determines who winds up on top when they clash, and the dogo usually immediately assumes the power position in this weight class against pumas.

I'm not sure those 3 cases you mention feature pumas that truly are the size of the dogos. When pumas and dogos look the same size the puma is bigger, a very underappreciated and under-acknowledged fact. In the case where the puma pinned the dogo it was visibly much bigger (if it is the one I'm thinking of?), so was likely 15 or 20 kgs heavier, or more. It LOOKED 15 kgs more, so was at least that. 

The other two cases are kind of "inconclusive" as far as wrestling dominance. No one scored the dominant position so I'm just not even factoring them in. 

I think normally with two specimens in that weight range, from everything I've seen the dog grabs the cat and topples it down fairly easily and starts mauling it. That's usually a pretty dominant position that will usually lead to victory, but I admit its possible for pumas to "win" from the bottom through damage accumulation. That is entirely possible EVEN for a small puma, yes. I think puma domination; grabbing and pinning a decent dogo with the forepaws, is exceedingly unlikely if the puma is 40-50 kgs.
Everything I have seen suggests that.

Because it has happened, all of these claims of cougars being "nothing" at that size range is debunked and outdated and primarily supported by a few videos of faggotish captive cougars that fall into panic and perform worse than a house cat would, this video being the prime example -



I don't see a fight here, I see a determined dogo mauling a cougar that stands chill an max gives some desperate rakes because no matter how faggotish an animal can be they will always at least try to shake off their individual, problem is instances like these give an enormous amount of credibility about the fact a cougar will always soccumb like this. No shit Sherlock, I have done boxing for 1.5 years and I can also get easily defeated by a random guy if i choose to stand chill and barely give any resistance. Not saying for sure I'd win with 100% confidence if I decide to fight back, but sure the game would look MUCH different. Again implying that I'm not saying a cougar will always fair good and defeat a dogo in that size range, I'm saying it's completely a retarded thing to say they ain't shit, if they were we wouldn't have these 3-5 instances (including the 1vmultiple scenario where the cougar badly damaged the snout of the dogo and caused the fracture and loss of the canines) where cougars either performed well or defeated dogos, both at same size or with slight size advantage.

I really disagree with your assessment of that video. Very very strongly, and it is beginning to make sense why you have the perception you do.

It is like you are actually punishing the dog because the cat performed badly. You're discounting every case where the cat was overwhelmed and not fighting because you expect it to do better. So every time the dogo fights the cat into submission you don't even count the fight. That's not fair. That is what losing looks like. You need to "punish" the cat in your mind for not fighting, that is when the ref steps in during an MMA fight. The best fighters in the ufc eventually "stop defending themselves" when they are badly beaten. It is the known sign that the fight is lost and it is when Herb Dean or Big John McCarthy dives in between them and breaks up the fight. Then Joe Rogan will say "yeah good stoppage, he was no longer defending himself".
It is not a bizarre mystery why the puma is not doing anything, it is just what happens when any animal, or human, is completely defeated. Your expectations for the cat to keep fighting despite being defeated and unable to muster a counter-offense is unrealistically high. Few animals can do that. Rare people and great apbts maybe, not pumas. Your expectation that this is a normal trait is very outlandish, setting a wildly high standard for combative prowess is an animal that never claimed to have extreme combat prowess.

The cases where pumas do well they either gain a dominant subjugation early, OR the two contestants are still battling for dominance when the puma manages to score debilitating damage. Then sure they are doing stuff and look good. This is different. This is simply a case where the dog secured dominant control, neutralised its ability to retaliate and submitted the cat. That's what a classic dog victory is ALWAYS going to look like, on a puma or leopard whether it is in a pen or in the wild or whatever. It is going to look like a cat doing nothing. That is called a cat that lost.

As I demonstrated in the breakdown of all the other cat fights, they can not fight for longer than literal seconds, when their initial flurry to either secure dominance or cause damage fails, and the dog grabs them and topples them down and pins them, it is going to look like a cat doing nothing. That is what a defeated cat looks like. It wouldn't have been doing nothing if the dog failed to lock it up and dominate it like that. Even in the case where the street dog (wrongly called a tibetan mastiff) bettered a leopard that tried to attack it, we saw the exact same thing, the dog had the leopard in a muzzle hold and it couldn't fight, it just laid there, until it mustered up a burst of energy to escape. It was submitted. Expecting it to do all cool stuff while being destroyed, and then saying it is invalid when it doesn't... that is really unreasonable. You need to understand a defeated cat looks like a cat not doing anything. You're gonna see similar basically every time a dog wins. Don't blame the dog or invalidate its victory. The dog took the fight out of the cat, that is why its not fighting. Its normal and nothing fishy is going on.

If I said in every case where the puma won that "the dog didn't want to fight", "see how it just fell down and got pinned and didn't even do a cool counter attack and spin out of the hold and then regrip and pin the puma with a cool bite? yeah thats an invalid video because the dog just got owned like a bitch". That would be pretty shit. You can't do that. You can't hold the cat to your expectations of what it should do. It did what anything does when it is completely defeated and has no fight left to give, it went limp. It did what its superior allowed it to do, which was nothing. The video evidence should lower your expectations moving forward. It demonstrates how it is possible for a dogo to subjugate, neutralise and immobilise a puma. Anyone who didn't think it was possible (which I fully empathise with), should henceforth understand how it is possible after seeing it happen. Not reject the reality of it.

The Caru case is personally my favourite one, you can see the cougar had visually almost no size advantage over that dogo and it looked to be a 36 kg vs 40+ kg match, so close enough is size, yet the cougar according to the description was able to subdue the dogo on the ground after a brawl by controlling it with its paws while delivering a killing neck bite- presumably behind the back of the head when looking at the picture :

I suppose the last picture on the bottom is the moment where the dogo charged in at the cougar, got a bad hold but the cougar was able to anticipate it and grab it by the back of the head with its jaws before wrestling and underwhelming it on the ground while delivering that killing bite, similarly to how this cougar defeated a wolf in the same way - 

Yeah that is cool but I don't agree there's no size difference. There's a visibly apparent size difference, and when they visibly look the same there is still a size difference.
Not saying it's a huge puma, but it is a solid male and the dogo is almost uncharacteristically sleek and lithe. If I learned the puma was 50 kg and the dogo was 35 kgs I would not be surprised.

I can't read the language but I'll say yes, looks like the puma was in control and defeated that dogo. Just goes to show it is well and ruly possible in the pen. If the puma is stronger and better it will win anywhere.

A good example of the brawl would be that cougar defeating that youngish slightly smaller dogo, but it has to be noted that the cougar who defeated Caru (an experienced RUGGED Dogo) lacked 90% of that size advantage and still managed to do it.
It shows that cougars at that size range CAN perform formidably and defeat dogos if they give the best performance they can.

I would just say they ALWAYS give the best performance they can, it is often just not good enough. Kudos to them when it is, but it seems to be rare that their performance is good enough when they are equal in weight and under 50 kgs.

Cheetahs aren't shit with or without size advantage, cougars aren't cheetahs.
Sure they ain't almost "nothing "compared to 60-80+ or even 90-100 kg males because strength is directly proportional in cats (not always, if so Shujaa wouldn't have been defeated by a younger smaller male), but they CAN be formidable, and they have defeated dogos in this size range.

I agree cheetahs are a much lower tier for sure. I don't think a cheetah can beat a german shepherd or really hardly anything above a jackal. I think a big male caracal would beat a cheetah tbh.

That guy is an absolute retard, if he's the guy I am claiming, then you will understand why I claim he's a retard :

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Dale? You see he goes even against your opinion, this guy is mistaking bobcat v Jagd with this matchup . "A dogo will EASILY defeat a cougar same size or larger". Dude are we kidding or what? All the instances where cougars didn't act faggotish EXCEPT the cliff video and the police case have shown they can defeat dogos or at least severely maim them for life. That isn't an EASY victory from my point of view, is it?

Really don't think it is the same guy. I agree THAT guy is dumb. Its always disappointing to see a clearly truly dumb dog supporter.
I don't get the same vibe from the other guy who I think is really argentinian and was not trying to say anything crazy. He kind of mirrored my views actually.

I disagree with you on "act faggotish", I think with the cases in question the dogo's are making them act faggotish, and you don't understand that is a credit to the dogo and the cat would not have acted faggotish on a dog it could beat and kill. The dogo made them a fag, which is what combative domination does to most.

Second point: " a 42 kg dogo would trash in the air a 60 kg puma"

Ok boomer, if a cougar at lower sizes was able to defeat a hunting experienced dogo named Caru by subduing it with a deadly neck hold in the ~40 kg range (which disproves the idea that a cougar at lower sizes would just "win" from a losing position) a dogo around the same size of that would toss in the air an even larger 60 kg puma?

That was one section of words where I just didn't even understand what he was trying to say. I feel like something must be lost in translation. What he said-

"There are videos where 42 kg dogs shake in the air at 60 kgs cougars."

I don't get what he is saying there. If he was suggesting a 42 kg dog picks up a 60 kg cougar and shakes it like a ragdoll, then yeah, that would be nuts. Physically impossible. That is not exactly what he said though, what he said doesn't really make sense but almost sounds like the dogo is in the air shaking? Maybe he means it is biting the puma and holding it and shaking its own body so violently that all 4 of its own feet are off the ground? As dogs often do on bigger beasts like bulls, bears and boars?
I honestly don't know. Might be retarded craziness, might not.

Thank God we know that 60-65+ kg is the size of a LARGE cougar in that region, for which Martinez case claims that the "large, fierce and courageous cougar" was probably around that size and it did indeed battle a dogo, named Tupac (that was also around 40-45 kgs).

Did the 40-45 kg dogo toss the 60 kg cat in the air as he'd claim? 
No, it got "defeated without a doubt and I had to take him out of the cage in order to save its life". So basically it ended worse than mission 13, it got probably defeated instantly, as you'd claim with your words :
"if the cat is good enough it will quickly defeat and subdue the dogo on the ground".

A good fighting cat with that size advantage isn't losing to a smaller dog, assuming the cat fights back and defenses itself nicely. It's just too large and proportionally powerful, it will be like the Tupac case, the dogo charges at the cat and the cat is able to outgrapple it and subdue it with it's size advantage with either a skull bite or a neck bite while controlling it with it's forelimbs, which is what happened there - the cougar was claimed to be fierce and large and it defeated Tupac (an experienced dogo) "without a doubt". It indicates, at least to me, that the cougar overpowered and defeated the dogo instantly, thanks primarily to it's size and strength advantage over the smaller dogo.

Can't argue.

About Tarzan I could believe he existed and he was an experienced fighter that allegedly defeated several dogos in the course of different years but in the end was able to get also defeated by a dogo - I mean even mike Tyson in his prime was defeating everyone but as aging has went over he started losing. Animals age.

The way he worded that didn't imply "it eventually lost". It implied it was experienced and fought lots of dogs, but SOME good dogs, interspersed through its career, beat it.
I'm not saying it is true, just saying that is what the guy said. The idea it eventually fizzled out and started losing at the end of its career is coming from you. The guy said something different, that there was a level of very good dogo who could beat it.

Could be total BS. I could almost believe it though. I could imagine there being a puma that could beat MOST dogos and then have a few dogos that were too good for it. There are definitely boars where that is the case. There is a big variation in ability between individual boardogs and their capacity to subjugate problematic adversaries. You have duds and culls, then you have good enoughs, then you have good ones, then you have great ones, then you have legendary world-beaters etc. It stands to reason there are individual pumas that fit between different categories, because pumas ALSO have individual variation. "Tarzan" might have been a good but not great 60 kg puma. And he might have beat great but not legendary dogos. Who knows?

But unless that individual cat makes a bad mistake in the making, I think it's practically  impossible for any dogo suffering from size disadvantage to defeat a 60 kg cougar, assuming the cougar gives its best resistance. The size advantage, proportional strength and damage delivering is too much.

Yeah I don't know. I almost agree, but 60 kg is IMO right on the cusp. You start talking about really good freak 55 kg boar dogs that are carrying their size perfectly well and are legendary world beaters? Maybe they could beat a decent 60 kg male puma. Think about the legendary "smut" of ceylon, not a dogo but a boarhound that weighed 58 kgs, fought countless leopards and was just a total beast warrior that refused to lose. Would it be SO nuts if he beat a decent 60 kg puma? Not to me. There would be the odd individual dogo that was a killer like him also. These individuals pop up where they pop up.
And look, pumas have them too, so... that is what makes for the epic battles you dream of. When it is not just "a dogo" and "a puma", but rather "Damian" the dogo and "Lucifer" the puma, both total legendary bosses in their own right. It is cool think that this matchup is NOT a certainty, it DOES depend on the individuals and can actually go either way. I think THAT is the reality all the evidence kind of points to fairly unambiguously and irrefutably, and to me that is the coolest situation that could exist, and why this is a timeless great matchup.


So long story short, MY take is

35-40 kg : not a match for our cat, one exception out of 100 can happen .

40-45 kg range : it can be either bad or a bit interesting for the cat, the big majority of cats (especially females or young males) against good dogs will lose , but GOOD aggressive males giving the best they can can defeat dogos.

45-50+ kg range : things get very interesting, death by below gets more possible and cougars get proportionally formidable, thet can be favored assuming they give their best performance.

55-60 kg : the cougar is getting too proportionally powerful and also large for the dogo to handle, freakiest outlier dogos can still perform well and not die immediately as most dogos would but I doubt that in a best vs best performance scenario even such exceptional dogo will get out alive of that.

60-65 kg : best vs best? Not a match anymore.

This is my take, careful when I use "best vs best".

Wait, are you implying that a dogo to defeat a 60 kg cougar has to be a freakish outlier dogo which means 90% of dogos would get wrecked most of times?

I would agree .

We're basically pretty close, I'd move the bar ever so slightly, like your description for 55-60 kg would probably be my description for 60+. "Not a match anymore" would be my description for 70+. Etc. We're very close, but slightly separated. Not so bad.

P.S : No I didn't get angry with you on this, you even mentioned "bias" when describing that individual. I was just making sure how I stand on this. From my point of view that individual, no matter if he even claims a 70 kg cougar would trash any dogo with ease (even if he'd be correct) that wouldn't make me forgive him because if he's Christian Brown he'd be a complete retard, arrogant and stupid who owns NO respect for cats or cougars, claiming they "ain't shit" which isn't true. How is it that from all instances where cougars didn't act faggotish like in those pen fights they have nearly always performed well and even defeated dogos? That's because they are shit. Not always of course, the cliff video and the police account are the example, but they can be dangerous even when lacking size advantage.

Again, my opinion is it is not the same guy. I think Christian Brown is a retard too. Luis Ontiveros seems like not a retard, or at least not wrong about puma vs dogo UNLESS he really did imply a 42 kg dogo will ragdoll a 60 kg puma through the air, lol. Jury is out on what he meant there.

I know you have bad feeling towards cat fans for multiple reasons I also deeply agree with (God, Espinola is making me tripping aswell) and I know that you're in these debates since 20+ years so it makes sense for you using such vocabulary (I never will. Trust me. Even if a wolf fan 100 times worse than Wyatt comes at me I'll never insult even if while faking it, his favourite animal) but do ne a favour, you know we aren't enemies aswell, we have gone over this, so at least with me can you not say "they aren't shit in that size range"? It's a favour I ask you. I've promised I would tolerate you know who,now I ask you to do a favour to me. Never in my life I've ever insulted a dog in any debate I've done, independently from cat v dog or dog v dog . I do not think you hate cats obviously, I know you value and respect them, the fact you've even went against me in the debate where you defended the possibility of that circus leopard killing 2 fighting boarhounds even at close sizes is the best example, and while I disagree, I HIGHLY respect you for that. If cougars can defeat or badly injure dogos even at parity it means they can be formidable even at parity, sure lacking a size advantage can make them bot always perform like they would at around 130-180+ lbs, but even at 100-110 lbs they have performed well and demonstrated they can defeat of seriously pone a threat to a dogo assuming they give the best resistance they can.
I only need you to admit this can happen. We'd be good forever

Lol well...

I think we are doing a good job of meeting in the middle and then "agreeing to disagree" on the discrepancy. I don't think they are "shit", at any size they are dangerous. I think cats are the most dangerous and lethal carnivore in general, and pumas and leopards are especially nasty ones. BUUT... and there's always a but. I do think if a dogo got actually pinned and dominated in the grapple by a puma that was 40-50 kg puma, I would have to unfortunately say I think it is not a great dogo to me. BUT I think even a great dogo, even a great dogo with a size advantage, could definitely lose a fight against a 40 kg puma via damage accumulation. That might be the best I can do. I expect dogos to control and subjugate pumas in the 40-50 kg weight range. I also expect them to control and subjugate boars of ANY size, 1 on 1, if they want to me to consider them good. I have to keep a high standard, that is what keeps these dogs special. So I think unfortunately there IS shame in a dogo being dominated and pinned and killed outright via a neckbite by a puma under 50 kgs. But no shame in dying from other means, and no shame in being pinned and killed outright by a 60 kg puma, and then no shame in having no chance against a 70 kg puma. I may even forgive a dogo for curring and running away from a 90 kg puma, lol.

By the way I agree, my Christian Brown is not the same guy. Glad we both agree he's a retard.

[grippingwhiteness]

Sept 27, 2023 21:17:24 GMT s said:

Sept 26, 2023 15:33:31 GMT grippingwhiteness said:

I know you have bad feeling towards cat fans for multiple reasons I also deeply agree with (God, Espinola is making me tripping aswell)

A bit mean, also i wouldn't really describe myself as a Cat fan im more of a Herbivore fan really, i like most Dogs, aside from Pugs, Chihuahuas and similar Dogs for being genetic dead ends. And Shitbulls and similar Dogs for being dangerous. It was a mistake to selectively breed them

You made me tripping on the cheetah v apbt case, and a LOT. So much that I even decided to call you a troll because even I was stunned by those claims. Claims that were so wrong but at the same time so obviously wrong that I didn't even correct them because there was no need. When someone generally makes a bad claim I set my eyes on red lasers like Homelander and turns me into a rabid monster ready to take on ANYONE doing a disrespect on an animal, especially cats, but I've got the soft spot for canids aswell, obviously gripping dogs. 

Dale and Bolushi know well I can turn into a feral animal when it comes to a true hater that deals with the animals I like, Wyatt, Bisonking. My God Bisonking, what I did to him was no exception to what I've done in the past to others but this really pushed the limit - I've been watching his anti-leopard and anti-bear posts on DOM all the time and by the time I joined he was banned (déjà vu?). But trust me when I tell you he was a die hard cat hater. He seriously has an issue with them, comparable to Black Ice. I've been blinded the whole time, as long as 6 months ago U thought Dale was the real enemy on this matter because I've been persuaded by the fact he called cats cowards on CF and I wrongly thought he was willingly disrespecting them. But he wasn't, in a recent post on here he acknowledged it's wrong from us to condemn cats for their elusive nature. The difference is that Bisonking truly meant it, and I could actually feel the difference between him now and Dale back then. There held no comparison, so I turned on rage and after beating the whole hell out of him on here I followed his elusive ass (wow, claims cats to be cowards but he's a coward himself) on his board for 2 days where he'd refuse to let me in because he was and is absolutely AFRAID of me. Poor guy lol .

So you can see when I get mad I'm probably one of the least people you want to meet in a debate, makes you understand why I've not replied to your cheetah v apbt . You truly sounded like trolling, not being serious. You compared cheetah muscularity to a Bengal tiger for damn sake. That's where I understood there was no need to adress your points 

On the other hand, even if you made me tripping, I can give you benefit of doubt because at least to my eyes you found an impressive account of a beastly cougar beating up and terribly tearing several dogos in a situation where it was outgunned and outmatched. That means something to me, so I'll give you the benefit of doubt and learn that a cheetah would lose to a rugged angry Labrador so let alone a apbt

[s]

Sept 28, 2023 7:31:14 GMT grippingwhiteness said:

Sept 27, 2023 21:17:24 GMT s said:

A bit mean, also i wouldn't really describe myself as a Cat fan im more of a Herbivore fan really, i like most Dogs, aside from Pugs, Chihuahuas and similar Dogs for being genetic dead ends. And Shitbulls and similar Dogs for being dangerous. It was a mistake to selectively breed them

You made me tripping on the cheetah v apbt case, and a LOT. So much that I even decided to call you a troll because even I was stunned by those claims. Claims that were so wrong but at the same time so obviously wrong that I didn't even correct them because there was no need. When someone generally makes a bad claim I set my eyes on red lasers like Homelander and turns me into a rabid monster ready to take on ANYONE doing a disrespect on an animal, especially cats, but I've got the soft spot for canids aswell, obviously gripping dogs. 

Dale and Bolushi know well I can turn into a feral animal when it comes to a true hater that deals with the animals I like, Wyatt, Bisonking. My God Bisonking, what I did to him was no exception to what I've done in the past to others but this really pushed the limit - I've been watching his anti-leopard and anti-bear posts on DOM all the time and by the time I joined he was banned (déjà vu?). But trust me when I tell you he was a die hard cat hater. He seriously has an issue with them, comparable to Black Ice. I've been blinded the whole time, as long as 6 months ago U thought Dale was the real enemy on this matter because I've been persuaded by the fact he called cats cowards on CF and I wrongly thought he was willingly disrespecting them. But he wasn't, in a recent post on here he acknowledged it's wrong from us to condemn cats for their elusive nature. The difference is that Bisonking truly meant it, and I could actually feel the difference between him now and Dale back then. There held no comparison, so I turned on rage and after beating the whole hell out of him on here I followed his elusive ass (wow, claims cats to be cowards but he's a coward himself) on his board for 2 days where he'd refuse to let me in because he was and is absolutely AFRAID of me. Poor guy lol .

So you can see when I get mad I'm probably one of the least people you want to meet in a debate, makes you understand why I've not replied to your cheetah v apbt . You truly sounded like trolling, not being serious. You compared cheetah muscularity to a Bengal tiger for damn sake. That's where I understood there was no need to adress your points 

On the other hand, even if you made me tripping, I can give you benefit of doubt because at least to my eyes you found an impressive account of a beastly cougar beating up and terribly tearing several dogos in a situation where it was outgunned and outmatched. That means something to me, so I'll give you the benefit of doubt and learn that a cheetah would lose to a rugged angry Labrador so let alone a apbt

I was arguing that a 60-70kg Cheetah would be far too much for a 25kg Pitbull, it would pin the Pitbull down and kill it. I myself stated that Pitbull should be heavily favoured at parity, and that a 25kg Pitbull is a good match against a 35kg Cheetah.

[s]

The Bengal Tiger comparison was a joke. But it's true that some muscular Cheetahs aren't far away from some average Leopards in appereance when it comes to upper body muscularity.

[grippingwhiteness]

Sept 28, 2023 9:35:38 GMT s said:

Sept 28, 2023 7:31:14 GMT grippingwhiteness said:

You made me tripping on the cheetah v apbt case, and a LOT. So much that I even decided to call you a troll because even I was stunned by those claims. Claims that were so wrong but at the same time so obviously wrong that I didn't even correct them because there was no need. When someone generally makes a bad claim I set my eyes on red lasers like Homelander and turns me into a rabid monster ready to take on ANYONE doing a disrespect on an animal, especially cats, but I've got the soft spot for canids aswell, obviously gripping dogs. 

Dale and Bolushi know well I can turn into a feral animal when it comes to a true hater that deals with the animals I like, Wyatt, Bisonking. My God Bisonking, what I did to him was no exception to what I've done in the past to others but this really pushed the limit - I've been watching his anti-leopard and anti-bear posts on DOM all the time and by the time I joined he was banned (déjà vu?). But trust me when I tell you he was a die hard cat hater. He seriously has an issue with them, comparable to Black Ice. I've been blinded the whole time, as long as 6 months ago U thought Dale was the real enemy on this matter because I've been persuaded by the fact he called cats cowards on CF and I wrongly thought he was willingly disrespecting them. But he wasn't, in a recent post on here he acknowledged it's wrong from us to condemn cats for their elusive nature. The difference is that Bisonking truly meant it, and I could actually feel the difference between him now and Dale back then. There held no comparison, so I turned on rage and after beating the whole hell out of him on here I followed his elusive ass (wow, claims cats to be cowards but he's a coward himself) on his board for 2 days where he'd refuse to let me in because he was and is absolutely AFRAID of me. Poor guy lol .

So you can see when I get mad I'm probably one of the least people you want to meet in a debate, makes you understand why I've not replied to your cheetah v apbt . You truly sounded like trolling, not being serious. You compared cheetah muscularity to a Bengal tiger for damn sake. That's where I understood there was no need to adress your points 

On the other hand, even if you made me tripping, I can give you benefit of doubt because at least to my eyes you found an impressive account of a beastly cougar beating up and terribly tearing several dogos in a situation where it was outgunned and outmatched. That means something to me, so I'll give you the benefit of doubt and learn that a cheetah would lose to a rugged angry Labrador so let alone a apbt

I was arguing that a 60-70kg Cheetah would be far too much for a 25kg Pitbull, it would pin the Pitbull down and kill it. I myself stated that Pitbull should be heavily favoured at parity, and that a 25kg Pitbull is a good match against a 35kg Cheetah.

I could agrue the cheetah might have more bite damage than a large LGD in a death match with a 50 lbis apbt, but that's just all the offense it has. Bite damage at best, but bite effectiveness isn't really there, it's pinhead (it's head is proportionally smaller  than cougars and probably even lynxes)and is nearly COMPLETELY unable to grapple and has terrible stamina, probably even worse than other big cats. But the fact it's unable to "grapple" makes things just worse. It's also very gracile in built and really doesn't have the mentality to viciously fight back cougars and leopards have. They don't "spazz out" , they just fall into full panic and understand nothing which is viable in the extremely rare instances they get in a brawl with lionesses. Here's an example :



Another example - before it dies


That's what cheetahs do in such situations, they panic and confusingly agitate their limbs in the air to hope that they can prevent in this confusing storm of little slaps their aggressor to reach their vital parts -the head or the neck.
They are, visually, incapable of actually raking and slashing with their claws as effectively as their pantherine cousins, that's because their limbs are very long and at the same time not as muscular, flexible and thick as those of Pantherines. That's also why you never see badly wounded cheetahs in territorial fights and why they aren't famous.
Not to ignore the difference in par and claw size.

Cheetah.



Leopard.




Cougar.



By consequence, they can't cause large gashes because at best there'll me some scracthes. 

So,  unable to properly grapple or shake off its opponent , the cheetah will go on it's back on the ground while totally unable to shake off the apbt that lugged into it and won't get shaken off.

[s]

Sept 28, 2023 12:09:25 GMT grippingwhiteness said:

Sept 28, 2023 9:35:38 GMT s said:

I was arguing that a 60-70kg Cheetah would be far too much for a 25kg Pitbull, it would pin the Pitbull down and kill it. I myself stated that Pitbull should be heavily favoured at parity, and that a 25kg Pitbull is a good match against a 35kg Cheetah.

I could agrue the cheetah might have more bite damage than a large LGD in a death match with a 50 lbis apbt, but that's just all the offense it has. Bite damage at best, but bite effectiveness isn't really there, it's pinhead (it's head is proportionally smaller  than cougars and probably even lynxes)and is nearly COMPLETELY unable to grapple and has terrible stamina, probably even worse than other big cats. But the fact it's unable to "grapple" makes things just worse. It's also very gracile in built and really doesn't have the mentality to viciously fight back cougars and leopards have. They don't "spazz out" , they just fall into full panic and understand nothing which is viable in the extremely rare instances they get in a brawl with lionesses. Here's an example :



Another example - before it dies


That's what cheetahs do in such situations, they panic and confusingly agitate their limbs in the air to hope that they can prevent in this confusing storm of little slaps their aggressor to reach their vital parts -the head or the neck.
They are, visually, incapable of actually raking and slashing with their claws as effectively as their pantherine cousins, that's because their limbs are very long and at the same time not as muscular, flexible and thick as those of Pantherines. That's also why you never see badly wounded cheetahs in territorial fights and why they aren't famous.
Not to ignore the difference in par and claw size.

Cheetah.
View AttachmentView Attachment


Leopard.
View Attachment
View Attachment


Cougar.
View Attachment
View Attachment

By consequence, they can't cause large gashes because at best there'll me some scracthes. 

So,  unable to properly grapple or shake off its opponent , the cheetah will go on it's back on the ground while totally unable to shake off the apbt that lugged into it and won't get shaken off.

False, Cheetah front claws are nearly as large as those of an African Leopard. Their rear claws are worse but still quite decent. Their bite isn't their only offensive power. 

[grippingwhiteness]

Sept 28, 2023 12:53:43 GMT s said:

Sept 28, 2023 12:09:25 GMT grippingwhiteness said:

I could agrue the cheetah might have more bite damage than a large LGD in a death match with a 50 lbis apbt, but that's just all the offense it has. Bite damage at best, but bite effectiveness isn't really there, it's pinhead (it's head is proportionally smaller  than cougars and probably even lynxes)and is nearly COMPLETELY unable to grapple and has terrible stamina, probably even worse than other big cats. But the fact it's unable to "grapple" makes things just worse. It's also very gracile in built and really doesn't have the mentality to viciously fight back cougars and leopards have. They don't "spazz out" , they just fall into full panic and understand nothing which is viable in the extremely rare instances they get in a brawl with lionesses. Here's an example :



Another example - before it dies


That's what cheetahs do in such situations, they panic and confusingly agitate their limbs in the air to hope that they can prevent in this confusing storm of little slaps their aggressor to reach their vital parts -the head or the neck.
They are, visually, incapable of actually raking and slashing with their claws as effectively as their pantherine cousins, that's because their limbs are very long and at the same time not as muscular, flexible and thick as those of Pantherines. That's also why you never see badly wounded cheetahs in territorial fights and why they aren't famous.
Not to ignore the difference in par and claw size.

Cheetah.
View AttachmentView Attachment


Leopard.
View Attachment
View Attachment


Cougar.
View Attachment
View Attachment

By consequence, they can't cause large gashes because at best there'll me some scracthes. 

So,  unable to properly grapple or shake off its opponent , the cheetah will go on it's back on the ground while totally unable to shake off the apbt that lugged into it and won't get shaken off.

False, Cheetah front claws are nearly as large as those of an African Leopard. Their rear claws are worse but still quite decent. Their bite isn't their only offensive power. 

Cheetah front claws are nearly as large as those of an African Leopard.

True.

Their bite isn't their only offensive power. 

False.

Why claiming a feature to be a weapon if you never use it because you can't properly use it?
Impalas also have very very long and sharp horns, but there's not even a SINGLE record of them using them against wild predators, in fact they always get overpowered like nothing despite being pretty large antelopes.

Regarding cheetahs, bite is their only offensive weapon  in this scenario because they are completely unable to use their claws in a defensive manner. They just use them as hooks to hook onto prey and have a better grip without slipping, but they do not rake or tear apart preys or enemies in self defense because they are apparently completely unable to do this, at least when compared to other cats (and pretty similar to Servals)

That's why cheetahs in aftermath pictures of territorial fights will never ever look not even 0.1% as torn as this :

[lincoln]

Sept 28, 2023 9:35:38 GMT s said:

Sept 28, 2023 7:31:14 GMT grippingwhiteness said:

You made me tripping on the cheetah v apbt case, and a LOT. So much that I even decided to call you a troll because even I was stunned by those claims. Claims that were so wrong but at the same time so obviously wrong that I didn't even correct them because there was no need. When someone generally makes a bad claim I set my eyes on red lasers like Homelander and turns me into a rabid monster ready to take on ANYONE doing a disrespect on an animal, especially cats, but I've got the soft spot for canids aswell, obviously gripping dogs. 

Dale and Bolushi know well I can turn into a feral animal when it comes to a true hater that deals with the animals I like, Wyatt, Bisonking. My God Bisonking, what I did to him was no exception to what I've done in the past to others but this really pushed the limit - I've been watching his anti-leopard and anti-bear posts on DOM all the time and by the time I joined he was banned (déjà vu?). But trust me when I tell you he was a die hard cat hater. He seriously has an issue with them, comparable to Black Ice. I've been blinded the whole time, as long as 6 months ago U thought Dale was the real enemy on this matter because I've been persuaded by the fact he called cats cowards on CF and I wrongly thought he was willingly disrespecting them. But he wasn't, in a recent post on here he acknowledged it's wrong from us to condemn cats for their elusive nature. The difference is that Bisonking truly meant it, and I could actually feel the difference between him now and Dale back then. There held no comparison, so I turned on rage and after beating the whole hell out of him on here I followed his elusive ass (wow, claims cats to be cowards but he's a coward himself) on his board for 2 days where he'd refuse to let me in because he was and is absolutely AFRAID of me. Poor guy lol .

So you can see when I get mad I'm probably one of the least people you want to meet in a debate, makes you understand why I've not replied to your cheetah v apbt . You truly sounded like trolling, not being serious. You compared cheetah muscularity to a Bengal tiger for damn sake. That's where I understood there was no need to adress your points 

On the other hand, even if you made me tripping, I can give you benefit of doubt because at least to my eyes you found an impressive account of a beastly cougar beating up and terribly tearing several dogos in a situation where it was outgunned and outmatched. That means something to me, so I'll give you the benefit of doubt and learn that a cheetah would lose to a rugged angry Labrador so let alone a apbt

I was arguing that a 60-70kg Cheetah would be far too much for a 25kg Pitbull, it would pin the Pitbull down and kill it. I myself stated that Pitbull should be heavily favoured at parity, and that a 25kg Pitbull is a good match against a 35kg Cheetah.

Cheetahs struggle to kill AWD’s, an APBT would be extremely difficult for a cheetah to kill

[Bolushi]

Sept 28, 2023 14:50:00 GMT lincoln said:

Sept 28, 2023 9:35:38 GMT s said:

I was arguing that a 60-70kg Cheetah would be far too much for a 25kg Pitbull, it would pin the Pitbull down and kill it. I myself stated that Pitbull should be heavily favoured at parity, and that a 25kg Pitbull is a good match against a 35kg Cheetah.

Cheetahs struggle to kill AWD’s, an APBT would be extremely difficult for a cheetah to kill

There isn't a single account of a cheetah killing an AWD, to a degree even to my surprise. Now understand a pitbull is several tiers above an AWD in combat ability and ability to un-fuck itself when it's in a very fucked situation, like fighting an animal 3x bigger than itself. It's a very bad mismatch despite the size difference.

[lincoln]

Sept 28, 2023 15:42:58 GMT Bolushi said:

Sept 28, 2023 14:50:00 GMT lincoln said:

Cheetahs struggle to kill AWD’s, an APBT would be extremely difficult for a cheetah to kill

There isn't a single account of a cheetah killing an AWD, to a degree even to my surprise. Now understand a pitbull is several tiers above an AWD in combat ability and ability to un-fuck itself when it's in a very fucked situation, like fighting an animal 3x bigger than itself. It's a very bad mismatch despite the size difference.

“The cheetah would pin the Pitbull” more like APBT slams into cheetah and mauls it

most people would be surprised that cheetahs are my favorite animal because of how much I talk shit about them

[Hardcastle]

grippingwhiteness
I did plan on writing a long reply, but we'll just end up going in circles.

I'll just try and be brief.

On the pumas not fighting back- you are right it is possible that maybe some have been pampered wuss pets that refused to fight, that is a possible state for a captive animal to be in (wild or domestic). It is not usually gonna be the case with a puma used specifically for training dogos and fighting them all the time, it is more likely to be a pampered loved soft pet that sleeps inside on its masters' bed and etc. An abused animal can fight fine. In fact as you know with victor the leopard in the roman arenas, he was raised captive from a cub and could smoke any wild leopard, the wild leopards would never fight to the satisfaction of the crowds or bestiaries. They had to have pet leopards do it. That was also true with lions. Wild animals dragged into the arenas were just fodder, it took tame wild animals to perform.

But yes, captive animals can also potentially be pampered wusses.

Maybe some cases of pen fights involved pampered wuss pets. I don't believe you have sufficient evidence that is the case with these small clips from videos where it appears a cat isn't fighting back. That is ALSO how a defeated cat will behave, even if it was fully savage to begin with and ready to kill. Once it is beaten it will look like that. Maybe some cats defeat themselves psychologically before the fight even starts, its possible, wouldn't serve much purpose for training a dogo and I'm sure a lot of them are not that. You say from the start it did nothing... we didn't see the start in that video. And regardless, cats will give up especially fast when defeated. Sorry. That is just what happens when you don't have stamina. "Fatigue makes cowards of us all" is a very real phenomenon, that saying didn't stand for aeons for no reason. It is extremely true, and we see it happen to even most professional UFC fighters eventually, where they stop fighting and give up. It's just naturally what most living organisms will do. I won most of the fights I was in, but I can recall two times where I lost control and started losing and both times I basically did just freeze up. You might be a rare guy who doesn't, who sees red and fights to the death despite no odds of turning the tables, cool. In that case you are nothing like a wild cat. Most animals won't do that.

In the videos which are different where the cat is still fighting, that is simply because it is not beaten yet (or even winning). The ones where it isn't fighting are the ones where it lost. Now I know you dismiss those videos completely I can see why you favour the puma, you're specifically only counting the rare videos where the puma is winning or where there is undecided ongoing action. That would skew anyone's perspective, but no, you need to count all of them and understand the record so far is about 23 to 6 in the dogo's favour.

In a lot of the countless pen fight videos where the pumas appear to be doing nothing, it is because they are beaten, and maybe there are some where they never started fighting due to being naive pampered wusses, but that isn't the norm and isn't the majority.

We also always need to keep in mind these pen fights only exist to prepare dogos to fight real wild pumas in the wild anyway, in situations like the cliff video. So that is what it is all about, and that is what a "finished" dogo is capable of. In many of the pen fight videos I believe dogos are showing they are "ready", and they did that by making a puma quit, by taking the fight out of it. That is their job in a nutshell and, surprise surprise, the decent ones can do their job.

There is no great shame for Caru, because the cat he lost to was at least 15 kgs heavier than him. They say it was 35 kgs heavier than him. I don't believe that, but you are going too far the other way. He looks 35 kgs (my bull arab was 36 kgs until recently, is probably 39 or so now, so I know the look), and the puma is not because I've seen a 35 kg puma and it looks like a cub or extremely dimunitive female. That's a fat-headed thick-limbed chunky mature male cat. It is 50-55 kgs. Its skull is bigger than the dogo's, that is not what a dogo vs puma looks like at parity, not even close.

I still like to think we aren't far apart overall, but on those two points I don't agree with you, and I'm ok with agreeing to disagree rather than keep saying the same things over and over again. Though you can have the last word, and if there is something to clear up I will respond but otherwise might leave it for now.

[bombsonyourmom]

Sept 28, 2023 12:53:43 GMT s said:

Sept 28, 2023 12:09:25 GMT grippingwhiteness said:

I could agrue the cheetah might have more bite damage than a large LGD in a death match with a 50 lbis apbt, but that's just all the offense it has. Bite damage at best, but bite effectiveness isn't really there, it's pinhead (it's head is proportionally smaller  than cougars and probably even lynxes)and is nearly COMPLETELY unable to grapple and has terrible stamina, probably even worse than other big cats. But the fact it's unable to "grapple" makes things just worse. It's also very gracile in built and really doesn't have the mentality to viciously fight back cougars and leopards have. They don't "spazz out" , they just fall into full panic and understand nothing which is viable in the extremely rare instances they get in a brawl with lionesses. Here's an example :



Another example - before it dies


That's what cheetahs do in such situations, they panic and confusingly agitate their limbs in the air to hope that they can prevent in this confusing storm of little slaps their aggressor to reach their vital parts -the head or the neck.
They are, visually, incapable of actually raking and slashing with their claws as effectively as their pantherine cousins, that's because their limbs are very long and at the same time not as muscular, flexible and thick as those of Pantherines. That's also why you never see badly wounded cheetahs in territorial fights and why they aren't famous.
Not to ignore the difference in par and claw size.

Cheetah.
View AttachmentView Attachment


Leopard.
View Attachment
View Attachment


Cougar.
View Attachment
View Attachment

By consequence, they can't cause large gashes because at best there'll me some scracthes. 

So,  unable to properly grapple or shake off its opponent , the cheetah will go on it's back on the ground while totally unable to shake off the apbt that lugged into it and won't get shaken off.

False, Cheetah front claws are nearly as large as those of an African Leopard. Their rear claws are worse but still quite decent. Their bite isn't their only offensive power. 

Keep mind that porcupine and wolf claws are also as long as an African' leopards but neither of those animals are known for their clawing ability. 

[grippingwhiteness]

Sept 28, 2023 18:56:15 GMT Hardcastle said:

grippingwhiteness
I did plan on writing a long reply, but we'll just end up going in circles.

I'll just try and be brief.

On the pumas not fighting back- you are right it is possible that maybe some have been pampered wuss pets that refused to fight, that is a possible state for a captive animal to be in (wild or domestic). It is not usually gonna be the case with a puma used specifically for training dogos and fighting them all the time, it is more likely to be a pampered loved soft pet that sleeps inside on its masters' bed and etc. An abused animal can fight fine. In fact as you know with victor the leopard in the roman arenas, he was raised captive from a cub and could smoke any wild leopard, the wild leopards would never fight to the satisfaction of the crowds or bestiaries. They had to have pet leopards do it. That was also true with lions. Wild animals dragged into the arenas were just fodder, it took tame wild animals to perform.

But yes, captive animals can also potentially be pampered wusses.

Maybe some cases of pen fights involved pampered wuss pets. I don't believe you have sufficient evidence that is the case with these small clips from videos where it appears a cat isn't fighting back. That is ALSO how a defeated cat will behave, even if it was fully savage to begin with and ready to kill. Once it is beaten it will look like that. Maybe some cats defeat themselves psychologically before the fight even starts, its possible, wouldn't serve much purpose for training a dogo and I'm sure a lot of them are not that. You say from the start it did nothing... we didn't see the start in that video. And regardless, cats will give up especially fast when defeated. Sorry. That is just what happens when you don't have stamina. "Fatigue makes cowards of us all" is a very real phenomenon, that saying didn't stand for aeons for no reason. It is extremely true, and we see it happen to even most professional UFC fighters eventually, where they stop fighting and give up. It's just naturally what most living organisms will do. I won most of the fights I was in, but I can recall two times where I lost control and started losing and both times I basically did just freeze up. You might be a rare guy who doesn't, who sees red and fights to the death despite no odds of turning the tables, cool. In that case you are nothing like a wild cat. Most animals won't do that.

In the videos which are different where the cat is still fighting, that is simply because it is not beaten yet (or even winning). The ones where it isn't fighting are the ones where it lost. Now I know you dismiss those videos completely I can see why you favour the puma, you're specifically only counting the rare videos where the puma is winning or where there is undecided ongoing action. That would skew anyone's perspective, but no, you need to count all of them and understand the record so far is about 23 to 6 in the dogo's favour.

In a lot of the countless pen fight videos where the pumas appear to be doing nothing, it is because they are beaten, and maybe there are some where they never started fighting due to being naive pampered wusses, but that isn't the norm and isn't the majority.

We also always need to keep in mind these pen fights only exist to prepare dogos to fight real wild pumas in the wild anyway, in situations like the cliff video. So that is what it is all about, and that is what a "finished" dogo is capable of. In many of the pen fight videos I believe dogos are showing they are "ready", and they did that by making a puma quit, by taking the fight out of it. That is their job in a nutshell and, surprise surprise, the decent ones can do their job.

There is no great shame for Caru, because the cat he lost to was at least 15 kgs heavier than him. They say it was 35 kgs heavier than him. I don't believe that, but you are going too far the other way. He looks 35 kgs (my bull arab was 36 kgs until recently, is probably 39 or so now, so I know the look), and the puma is not because I've seen a 35 kg puma and it looks like a cub or extremely dimunitive female. That's a fat-headed thick-limbed chunky mature male cat. It is 50-55 kgs. Its skull is bigger than the dogo's, that is not what a dogo vs puma looks like at parity, not even close.

I still like to think we aren't far apart overall, but on those two points I don't agree with you, and I'm ok with agreeing to disagree rather than keep saying the same things over and over again. Though you can have the last word, and if there is something to clear up I will respond but otherwise might leave it for now.

I'm not claiming that ALL pen fights involve wuss wuss cats, if that was the case Caru would have defeated that visually same sized cougar, so would have that other dogo in the pen where it failed to get a dominant position and got its face torn. 

If that was the case - you also wouldn't have me and you fighting over whether that leopard killed two fighting boarhounds 2v1 solo or 1v1 in separate occasion; because that account wouldn't exist in first place.

My take is that SOME of them could, as evidenced by that Pinterest image. My other take is most cougars that are captive raised are GENERALLY (not always at all - Caru case , Tupac case and that inconclusive pen where the cougar badly mauled the dogo's face and didn't get subdued are examples confirming that captive cougars can perform well) not as formidable as their counterparts in the wild, and that's exactly what you've also claimed on Wildanimalwarfare once, it's so unethical for cats to be savage gladiators that most of the time it turns out to be a failure :

(Quoted by you)

That's why a wild animal in the wild is a challenge. Because they are going to compete with an attitude not of "poor me, why?! this is horrible!!!" but rather, "Oh yeah? You think you're gonna get me you fuckin dog?! Try this on for size you mother fucker *ruck and gore and attack* Yeah!! haha! Fuck you!". They are enjoying themselves. They are far tougher and harder than precious greenies can comprehend, they have come to accept things are trying to kill them, and they take pleasure in preventing them from doing so. 

Any individual can get used to its own lifestyle and learn to "get its kicks where it can" and enjoy itself. This is also true for fighting bulls and similar has been mentioned about bears in bear baiting in the past as well. 

It's probably NOT true for pumas used in pen fights, because it is so deeply antithetical to everything a feline stands for to stand and fight against an oncoming assailant. 

Whereas a wild one in the wild would me more of a challenge IMO, because as you said it's not habitual for it to be in such situation with a dog and it will act the more aggressive it can if it gets attacked - on defense.

The paw trapped cougar kept tearing open the dogo's face despite being stabbed meanwhile, also the larger cougar kept beating up the dogos and dogals despite being shot already and getting mauled by 6+ catchdogs in the same time. My take is that a wild cat will definitely start to act faggotish as it's close to its death, but not during the entire fight. I'm not saying all pen fights show that, I'm saying THAT video in particular does show it. We don't know if the fight began in that moment, the original clip does show that there's the cougar wandering around the cage and then the clip immediately cuts to the video I've posted. The dogo wasn't even maimed or badly injured, even at parity if a cougar loses it would cause evident claw injuries on a dogo . I doubt that cougar raked the dogo in the begging that wasn't filmed and then turned like this - my take about THAT pen ONLY is that the cougar didn't really perform, I'm not discrediting the other, I even told you I consider the cliff video one where the cougaress at least FOUGHT and attacked back, the police case where that cougar was dragged out and put in a cage for relocation is also obviously valid, the dogo was badly clawed up . That's what I'm referring to, only that pen THERE. If you see on the presa canario v Mountain lion thread I've also sent one of a little cougar (probably even slightly smaller than the dogo) crawling and mauling the dogo's face meanwhile the dogo was mauling the cat's hind limbs. I've claimed that I'm proud about how that cougar performed, but I also claimed it wouldn't have won , in my opinion, it was too small. It surely badly maimed the dogo, but it didn't win . That's another pen I'm defending where the cougar didn't win, imo.

My take is that in the wild a cougar will always be more challenging and "on the fighty mood" in a defensive manner more often than a captive raised one, in fact all instances in the wild BAR the cliff and police case have cougars performing from well to perfectly. I'm not saying a pen fight won't have a cougar performing worse. It's just a "frequency thing".

That cougar that got defeated later performed well, it crawled up and started injuring the dogo. It lost later, who cares? It performed and maimed the dogo, I'm proud of that cougar still. Not that it could do much, it visually looked smaller than the dogo, it obviously stood nearly no chance at first.

 Caru case, Tupac case and that other pen are also another demonstration that pen cougars (assuming they weren't caught from the wild) can perform good. There's also another pen which is an old black and white picture of a chained cougar ravaging the face of a dogo and that the full face of the dogo is bleeding heavily with the original name in Spanish being "puma mutilando dogo" aka "puma mauling dogo", it indicates the cougar was winning as it looks also by the image. There's also that tethered dogo with the cougar getting a hold of the back of its head, sure the cougar may have lost slightly after, who knows it performed well at least. It lost but performed well.

I don't care if a cougar at parity loses WHILE performing well. It means it wasn't enough strong, who cares? At least it performed. I just have something with that individual case of that pen video.

That's my take over this - and no I'm not one that likes having the last word. I'm open always to talk.

Regarding the Caru case, I am clearly also willing to leave you with your opinion, after all ours is only a visual estimate, but I must however report that I do not agree that the puma is so big in comparison. 50-55 kg still seems like an overestimate to me, especially looking at this photo where they are both facing each other -

Just for "fun" I colored the areas of both figures, the puma's area doesn't seem much bigger than the dogo's, they both look almost perfectly identical

  I could agree the cougar looks a bit bigger (for which I estimated it to be 40 kg or max 42-43 kgs compared to the 36 kg dogo) but keep in mind that the cougar is also in a different position and it's more packed as it's got its back curved as it's about to enter in a brawl contest with Caru, having it been positioned normally it would have a slightly more elongated bit narrower body -also because they look around the same, a few kgs more on the cat probs.

Also the skull isn't really larger at all to be fair - the dogo's head looks bigger

I've also done this for fun, it's a sketch obviously but I tried to make them fit the better I could, the dogo's head looks bigger.



I am sure it would take a 150-160 lb cat to have the head larger than that of a dogo generally speaking, obviously there's also individual variation that speaks clear when you realize the largest skull ever of a cougar barely belonged to a 155 lb specimen , truly SBT proportions on that cougar since it had a skull larger than that of the 227 lb record male.

The muscular limbs also do not always tell it's a 50-55+ kg cat, remember Bolushi posting that image of a 99 lb or 45 kg cougar with very ripped and bulky limbs?

That individual cougar I'd personally favor it over dogos at parity, because despite its small size compared to a general 140-160 lb male to have such built it looks very powerful even at such small size. It looks like it has the strength even at parity to subdue with a killing neck bite a dogo even at parity like the one that defeated Caru.

Again, imo it was 36 kg vs 40 kg max 36 kg vs 42 kg . You can agree to disagree about the size of that cat

[Hardcastle]

Sept 29, 2023 10:10:12 GMT grippingwhiteness said:

I'm not claiming that ALL pen fights involve wuss wuss cats, if that was the case Caru would have defeated that visually same sized cougar, so would have that other dogo in the pen where it failed to get a dominant position and got its face torn. 

If that was the case - you also wouldn't have me and you fighting over whether that leopard killed two fighting boarhounds 2v1 solo or 1v1 in separate occasion; because that account wouldn't exist in first place.

My take is that SOME of them could, as evidenced by that Pinterest image. My other take is most cougars that are captive raised are GENERALLY (not always at all - Caru case , Tupac case and that inconclusive pen where the cougar badly mauled the dogo's face and didn't get subdued are examples confirming that captive cougars can perform well) not as formidable as their counterparts in the wild, and that's exactly what you've also claimed on Wildanimalwarfare once, it's so unethical for cats to be savage gladiators that most of the time it turns out to be a failure:

(Quoted by you)
That's why a wild animal in the wild is a challenge. Because they are going to compete with an attitude not of "poor me, why?! this is horrible!!!" but rather, "Oh yeah? You think you're gonna get me you fuckin dog?! Try this on for size you mother fucker *ruck and gore and attack* Yeah!! haha! Fuck you!". They are enjoying themselves. They are far tougher and harder than precious greenies can comprehend, they have come to accept things are trying to kill them, and they take pleasure in preventing them from doing so. 
Any individual can get used to its own lifestyle and learn to "get its kicks where it can" and enjoy itself. This is also true for fighting bulls and similar has been mentioned about bears in bear baiting in the past as well. 


It's probably NOT true for pumas used in pen fights, because it is so deeply antithetical to everything a feline stands for to stand and fight against an oncoming assailant.

Whereas a wild one in the wild would me more of a challenge IMO, because as you said it's not habitual for it to be in such situation with a dog and it will act the more aggressive it can if it gets attacked - on defense.

Intuitively felines would be less likely to take to such a gladitorial lifestyle when compared to boars and bulls who expect to be persecuted and defend themselves regardless of whether or not conditions are favorable, BUT, to their credit, it seems cats can also grow accustomed to it.

We have Victor the leopard from ancient rome, the circus leopard against the boarhounds, we have Wallace the lion, we have the jaguar in the san francisco fight and the other jaguar against multiple pitbulls in brazil, and then yes we have these small spattering of cases of captive pumas that performed well in pen fights.

Then we also have pumas performing badly in the wild. And leopards losing in the wild (all those who fought smut, one who fought another large warhound named pirate in a different baker book, we have the bankhar-ish street dog submitting the leopard that attacked it, etc)

And btw we also have other lion baits. In fact, there are in total 5 recorded lion baits in history. ONLY Nero was a wuss that didn't understand to fight. That is 1 in 5 fights, and the details of that Lion make it very clear why he was like that. He was legitimately "pampered" as a beloved sweet pet and knew nothing of violence.

All the others were probably treated fairly crap. And so they were mean, and so they fought. The percentage of pumas in pen fights that were treated really nice up until the fateful day they were pitted against a dogo? It may not be non-existent, but it is definitely the minority.

Generally speaking it seems cats can take to that nasty lifestyle of fighting in pen fights.

So I don't fully agree with my own quote there. It has basically been disproven by the case studies.

Speaking of the cliff case, we have there a case where the puma was fully wild and did attack. It has also been touted as small but the freeze frames I have shown indicate it was definitely at least as big as the dogo.
It also caused no visible damage to the dogo and was quickly neutralised. So that dispells the idea that massive damage to the dogo is required to prove the cat is even participating in the fight.

You are setting up all these little rules for things to qualify where by the time a fight passes the test it is pretty safe to say the puma is doing great and winning because it is doing all bad ass stuff and causing massive amounts of damage and etc, anything less than that "doesn't count" to you, but those are the cases where the dog dominated. Naturally you are getting a skewed perspective.
A small percentage of them might have genuinely featured a cat that didn't fight and didn't understand violence, the idea it is a significant number is really not supported by the evidence we have where for a cat to be like that it seems it needs to be an actual pampered "fur baby" wuss, not just captive, but spoiled and sheltered. Captive cats can perform and have performed, and wild cats have sometimes not performed when they too were overwhelmed.

Being a pampered pet wuss is a very real handicap indeed, and one that befalls dogs most commonly out of everything. This is where we get fat bullies being scratched up by lynxes and doing nothing and etc. They are like "nero" the lion, just no concept of violence. Some cats in these organised fights may well be like that too, but it is definitely a small minority. Just being captive by itself is not a handicap. It really depends. And apparently being wild is also no surefire way to guarantee bad-assery as well.

I have noticed this with all the many boar hunting videos I have seen as well, the reality is many fully wild boars do absolutely nothing when attacked, just scream and submit. Big game hunter literature that I has posted before have described many bears doing the same. Just submitting and pitifully wailing almost instantly.

There's kind of no rhyme or reason, just individual variation, badasses can be found in the wild and also can wind up in a circus or in posession of some con man or whatever. Ditto for wusses.

I don't agree with discounting every loser as an invalid wuss. Maybe I need to be mindful of this when defending dogs as well. Some cases are blatant, like Nero, like the pit-mommies babies who got scratched by the bobcat or whatever and needed vet attention. Those cases are flagrant, but we shouldn't go overboard with trying to pack every case we don't like the outcome of into that category. That goes for both of us.

I try not to do it. Like the jaguar that defeated multiple pitbulls (I think it was 4 or 5, can't remember), it was a vague article with limited information. I could have assumed they were all shit fat loser pitbulls because I would expect 5 to do better, I could have also tried to argue they were probably released one at a time or something. But I'm choosing not to, because I don't want to be that guy and rationally I think they most likely were illegal fighting dogs to find themself in that situation (fighting a jaguar at some Drug Cartel mansion) and probably pretty damn good.

There was a wolfhound killed by a leopard, witnessed by Jane Goodall (the chimp researcher). I COULD try and argue that wolfhounds aren't shit any more and was probably a big dumb pet... but no. I actually think it was probably a serious steekhar or maritsane type dog and Jane just called it an "Irish Wolfhound" because she didn't know better. I base this on the fact it belonged to a rugged rural property in Kenya (I believe) so yeah I don't think it would be reasonable for me to try and dismiss and downplay the quality of the dog. Logically it was most likely a very good dog indeed (though it is equally logical to assume it was ambushed).

The paw trapped cougar kept tearing open the dogo's face despite being stabbed meanwhile, also the larger cougar kept beating up the dogos and dogals despite being shot already and getting mauled by 6+ catchdogs in the same time.

I don't love those cases QUITE as much as you do. There are other cat cases I am impressed by, but those messy situations with too many dogs and traps and humans getting involved and etc, and the dogs gett gashed and wounded... I just have seen it too many times with coyotes and even foxes to equate it to winning a fight. Its a cat being brutally slaughtered and in the chaos I think it is injuring complacent dogs with wild panicked paw swipes and etc. Again... you can see foxes, coyotes, jackals, raccoons and etc etc pull off similar "feats". Even though multiple dogs in a hunt with a man helping obviously is a huge disadvantage for the cougar, it is also a terrible time to judge a dog's performance because it will often be very very shit and lacksadaisical. Sloppy and careless. Desperate flailing from a hugely disadvantaged victim causing injuries ... its cool and bravo for the victim's valiant efforts, but really not that pertinent to a fight analysis. I feel the same way about the leopards flailing amongst a pride of lions. I don't say "well shit if it can do that against 7 lions...". No. That would be a mistake. Its not actually a fight at that point. I know it is counter intuitive to not side with the under-dog victim and give them as much credit as possible for managing to mete out justice to their villainous antagonists against the odds, and you can continue to do so, I just sincerely don't feel it is actually that relevant to a fight. It is so not like an actual fight and is its own different thing, where all hunters know that yes this is when dogs are at most risk of being injured. Not just with pumas and leopards but on far far lesser quarry as well.

My take is that a wild cat will definitely start to act faggotish as it's close to its death, but not during the entire fight.

It is not just "close to death" though, it is as soon as they feel overwhelmed. It could be 2 seconds in and they could be no where near dead or even injured. Just overcome with helplessness. It happens. Happened to the leopard that tried to prey on the bankhar. It stopped doing anything as soon as the dog latched onto its face. That is not so strange or unusual in a combat scenario. It is just a sudden rush of shock and panick and freezing up, not knowing what to do. Can happen to the best of us. Again, and I stress this with emphasis- it happens in a good percentage of UFC fights with professional fighters. Expecting wild cats to not do it when professional elite human fighters do it, is not reasonable.

In cases where it didn't happen the cat was simply not yet neutralised, yes even in those 17 dogs on one cat and the cat is shot and trapped and etc, yes it technically IS fucked, BUT it is not physically neutralised and subjugated. No single dog is really achieving that in that scenario, and it is still "free" and full of adrenaline and fighting for its life. A neutralising subjugation will take that spirit out of something.

I'm not saying all pen fights show that, I'm saying THAT video in particular does show it. We don't know if the fight began in that moment, the original clip does show that there's the cougar wandering around the cage and then the clip immediately cuts to the video I've posted. The dogo wasn't even maimed or badly injured, even at parity if a cougar loses it would cause evident claw injuries on a dogo .

Again it is not fair to have these qualifiers where "the dog wasn't even wounded". The dog wasn't wounded in the cliff video either, despite being attacked by a wild puma in the wild. It did its job properly and neutralised the puma before it managed to do any of that. For you a fight only begins to even count as a fight when the dogo fails to do its job properly. That's not a good starting point for the dog side. With those parameters and those exclusions, I too would notice a trend for pumas to win. You only pay attention to a fight when the puma is winning. Maybe if a dog turns the tables it can win you over. That's a pretty high bar. Sometimes the dog just wins from the start and the cat doesn't get an opportunity to do much because it is neutralised.

Hunters live for the moments where that doesn't happen, and they get an epic fight and the dogs are forced to prove the depth of their intestinal fortitude and prevail when the chips are down and the odds stacked against them. That isn't every hunt, they wish it was, and they'd probably love for people to believe it is. But it is not. Not for pumas or boars or bears or anything. Sometimes everything goes smoothly.

I think you are discounting those cases as invalid, and I don't think that is right. Some little percentage of the cases where things go smoothly for the dog may genuinely be such cases where the puma was never going to fight because it is a wuss and a fag and whatever. I think you are attributing that to too many cases and cases where you don't know that and have no reason to think that. The small clip it cut to of the dogo with the neutralised puma... you might be right, but you also might not be right. Unfortunately a puma being neutralised and a puma not fighting look exactly the same, because what they do when they are neutralised is not fight.

I doubt that cougar raked the dogo in the begging that wasn't filmed and then turned like this - my take about THAT pen ONLY is that the cougar didn't really perform, I'm not discrediting the other, I even told you I consider the cliff video one where the cougaress at least FOUGHT and attacked back, the police case where that cougar was dragged out and put in a cage for relocation is also obviously valid, the dogo was badly clawed up . That's what I'm referring to, only that pen THERE. If you see on the presa canario v Mountain lion thread I've also sent one of a little cougar (probably even slightly smaller than the dogo) crawling and mauling the dogo's face meanwhile the dogo was mauling the cat's hind limbs. I've claimed that I'm proud about how that cougar performed, but I also claimed it wouldn't have won , in my opinion, it was too small. It surely badly maimed the dogo, but it didn't win . That's another pen I'm defending where the cougar didn't win, imo.

And those are cases where the dog is struggling to attain the neutralising lug. The puma is still in the fight, the fight is still up for grabs and the dog is working to get that neutralising lug. They can struggle and even fail to get it, EXACTLY the way a puma or leopard can struggle and fail to get their neutralising kill-hold when they ambush a dog. The difference is the dog keeps working for it, and NORMALLY the puma or leopard just retreat to try again at a later date. It is the same thing thing though, failing to get the neutralising hold. When a dog does it a cat keeps punishing the dog with its defensive "buzz saw" of pain, trying to make the dog give up, but they have a tendency to not give up. Sometimes even when the buzz saw gets pretty damn crazy, as we have seen with some of the badly wounded and swollen and bleeding dogos. Those are cases where the dogo struggled to get his neutralising hold, and we aren't always sure if he won or lost in the end, but we can tell from the carnage he had difficult. They don't always have difficulty, and it is not only on non-fighting wuss pumas where they don't have difficulty. Sometimes they just don't have difficulty because they succeeed to get the good lug quickly. Just as cats often don't have difficulty when they ambush dogs.

The wolfhound case, it seemed the leopard experienced no difficulty whatsoever. Doesn't invalidate it for me, just means the leopard did its job well.

My take is that in the wild a cougar will always be more challenging and "on the fighty mood" in a defensive manner more often than a captive raised one, in fact all instances in the wild BAR the cliff and police case have cougars performing from well to perfectly. I'm not saying a pen fight won't have a cougar performing worse. It's just a "frequency thing". That cougar that got defeated later performed well, it crawled up and started injuring the dogo. It lost later, who cares? It performed and maimed the dogo, I'm proud of that cougar still. Not that it could do much, it visually looked smaller than the dogo, it obviously stood nearly no chance at first.
Caru case, Tupac case and that other pen are also another demonstration that pen cougars (assuming they weren't caught from the wild) can perform good. There's also another pen which is an old black and white picture of a chained cougar ravaging the face of a dogo and that the full face of the dogo is bleeding heavily with the original name in Spanish being "puma mutilando dogo" aka "puma mauling dogo", it indicates the cougar was winning as it looks also by the image. There's also that tethered dogo with the cougar getting a hold of the back of its head, sure the cougar may have lost slightly after, who knows it performed well at least. It lost but performed well.

I don't care if a cougar at parity loses WHILE performing well. It means it wasn't enough strong, who cares? At least it performed. I just have something with that individual case of that pen video.
That's my take over this - and no I'm not one that likes having the last word. I'm open always to talk.

I just think, as I explained above. You are requiring the dog to fail before you even acknowledge the case, and that isn't fair.

I can agree that wild pumas are PROBABLY less likely to "fail to perform" than "captive pumas" in general. I'm not so sure about those that are used in pen fights. I think, like hogs, some of them can grow accustomed to the fight and may even fight better than a wild puma thats never seen a dogo before. We see evidence of this phenomenon with Victor the roman leopard, and it is a common phenomenon with captive hogs used to train dogs. They can be far worse than any hog you will find in the wild in 1000 outings, because they have practiced so much and are so attuned to what dogs will do. I'm not saying a significant percentage of pumas in pen fights are these style of "conditioned warrior", but it seems they have been alluded to in the case with Tarzan and the case with Tupac. They were noteworthy individuals for their dog fighting ability that they earned through pen fight experience. They might be more serious of a challenge than even a wild puma, or at least a majority of wild puma. That is how it is with other animals, and though I did say it seems cats would "take to the lifestyle" less readily than hogs and bulls and bears, there seems to be support for the idea some do.

Cases where dogs are easily shitwhipping pumas in pens obviously aren't gonna be cases involving these "pro warrior" cats, but they also aren't necessarily total wusses either. They might have wanted to fight and hoped to fight and started out trying before quickly realising they couldn't compete. We didn't actually see the start of the fight that spurred all this and I don't think we can speculate. I just know sometimes, in the wild or in the pen or whatever, sometimes the dog is quickly going to turn the cat into a cat that is not fighting, but that is not an invalid victory for the dog, it is instead an emphatic victory for the dog.

Sometimes there might also be invalid victories, both ways. Like Nero and the 30 lbs bulldog, Like the pitmommy furbabies and the bobcat, etc.

Regarding the Caru case, I am clearly also willing to leave you with your opinion, after all ours is only a visual estimate, but I must however report that I do not agree that the puma is so big in comparison. 50-55 kg still seems like an overestimate to me, especially looking at this photo where they are both facing each other
Just for "fun" I colored the areas of both figures, the puma's area doesn't seem much bigger than the dogo's, they both look almost perfectly identical

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I could agree the cougar looks a bit bigger (for which I estimated it to be 40 kg or max 42-43 kgs compared to the 36 kg dogo) but keep in mind that the cougar is also in a different position and it's more packed as it's got its back curved as it's about to enter in a brawl contest with Caru, having it been positioned normally it would have a slightly more elongated bit narrower body -also because they look around the same, a few kgs more on the cat probs.
Also the skull isn't really larger at all to be fair - the dogo's head looks bigger

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I've also done this for fun, it's a sketch obviously but I tried to make them fit the better I could, the dogo's head looks bigger.
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I am sure it would take a 150-160 lb cat to have the head larger than that of a dogo generally speaking, obviously there's also individual variation that speaks clear when you realize the largest skull ever of a cougar barely belonged to a 155 lb specimen , truly SBT proportions on that cougar since it had a skull larger than that of the 227 lb record male.

The muscular limbs also do not always tell it's a 50-55+ kg cat, remember Bolushi posting that image of a 99 lb or 45 kg cougar with very ripped and bulky limbs?

That individual cougar I'd personally favor it over dogos at parity, because despite its small size compared to a general 140-160 lb male to have such built it looks very powerful even at such small size. It looks like it has the strength even at parity to subdue with a killing neck bite a dogo even at parity like the one that defeated Caru.

Again, imo it was 36 kg vs 40 kg max 36 kg vs 42 kg . You can agree to disagree about the size of that cat

And I'll agree to disagree. The dog is closer to the camera in the top 2 of the 3 shots. In the top photo I admit you really couldn't separate them size-wise if that was the only photo you had, but in the second it is clear, and then in the 3rd where I think they are in equal perspective it is very clear that the puma has a significant weight advantage. In the second photo it is also very clear it is a chunky mature male with a fatter head than the dogo.

I think it is bigger, they are saying its way bigger, but I'm choosing to use my own judgement and say it is at least 10 kgs bigger and more likely 15 kgs bigger. That is my perspective on that. I think we just won't agree on that one.

[Hardcastle]

Those little "div" tags that get put in automatically when you are trying to quote and respond to someone are so annoying, really spoil the formatting and you need to track them all down and delete them. Think I have done it though.