First point : He acts as if a dogo in the 40-50 kg range would best a cougar all the time as if the cat ain't shit, that's wrong. A cougar is not a bobcat, at parity a powerful male cougar giving the best resistance CAN and HAS defeated a dogo at parity according to instances I've already described. The (paw trapped)cougar tearing apart and mauling the visually same sized dogo's face in less than 20 seconds is the proof; the cougar defeating the visually same sized 36 kg dogo (for which I personally estimate it to be 40-43 kgs at best) by apparently subduing it with its forelimbs while delivering a killing neck bite and the cage fight Bolushi noted me where the cougar managed to shake off it the dogo with rear rakes and then go mouth to mouth with the dogo with the dogo's face being also severely torn are good examples .
Good examples confirming that cougars giving the best they can against same sized dogos CAN result to them defeating the dogs. Which were no culls. If cougars weren't. A 45-50 kg cougar, if it gives the BEST resistance it can, its performance aftermath will range from severely maiming to even defeating a dogo. Sure it won't probably happen all the time, it's not a videogame where a character of said level can't defeat another character of said level because game codes say it was designed to beat that opponent just after it reached level 90 or something. Results vary. But anyone doubting the fact a 40-45 kg cougar can severely maim or defeat a rugged dogo is either uneducated, stupid or ignorant when you look at all the instances available.
I think a 40-50 kg cougar can "win" but probably not in a dominant fashion. From the bottom with raking damage anything is possible, but I think there is a very high tendency for dogo vs puma in this weight range to quickly, usually immediately, turn into a case where the dog is sprawled over the cat pinning and mauling it.
I haven't seen one or two cases, I've seen 30+. Its typically what happens. Yes I'm not discounting the pen fights because I don't see any reason to. Big pumas win pen fights. As do Jaguars against multiple foes. It doesn't make much difference because it is simply a test of power between two animals that determines who winds up on top when they clash, and the dogo usually immediately assumes the power position in this weight class against pumas.
I'm not sure those 3 cases you mention feature pumas that truly are the size of the dogos. When pumas and dogos look the same size the puma is bigger, a very underappreciated and under-acknowledged fact. In the case where the puma pinned the dogo it was visibly much bigger (if it is the one I'm thinking of?), so was likely 15 or 20 kgs heavier, or more. It LOOKED 15 kgs more, so was at least that.
The other two cases are kind of "inconclusive" as far as wrestling dominance. No one scored the dominant position so I'm just not even factoring them in.
I think normally with two specimens in that weight range, from everything I've seen the dog grabs the cat and topples it down fairly easily and starts mauling it. That's usually a pretty dominant position that will usually lead to victory, but I admit its possible for pumas to "win" from the bottom through damage accumulation. That is entirely possible EVEN for a small puma, yes. I think puma domination; grabbing and pinning a decent dogo with the forepaws, is exceedingly unlikely if the puma is 40-50 kgs.
Everything I have seen suggests that.
I really disagree with your assessment of that video. Very very strongly, and it is beginning to make sense why you have the perception you do.
It is like you are actually punishing the dog because the cat performed badly. You're discounting every case where the cat was overwhelmed and not fighting because you expect it to do better. So every time the dogo fights the cat into submission you don't even count the fight. That's not fair. That is what losing looks like. You need to "punish" the cat in your mind for not fighting, that is when the ref steps in during an MMA fight. The best fighters in the ufc eventually "stop defending themselves" when they are badly beaten. It is the known sign that the fight is lost and it is when Herb Dean or Big John McCarthy dives in between them and breaks up the fight. Then Joe Rogan will say "yeah good stoppage, he was no longer defending himself".
It is not a bizarre mystery why the puma is not doing anything, it is just what happens when any animal, or human, is completely defeated. Your expectations for the cat to keep fighting despite being defeated and unable to muster a counter-offense is unrealistically high. Few animals can do that. Rare people and great apbts maybe, not pumas. Your expectation that this is a normal trait is very outlandish, setting a wildly high standard for combative prowess is an animal that never claimed to have extreme combat prowess.
The cases where pumas do well they either gain a dominant subjugation early, OR the two contestants are still battling for dominance when the puma manages to score debilitating damage. Then sure they are doing stuff and look good. This is different. This is simply a case where the dog secured dominant control, neutralised its ability to retaliate and submitted the cat. That's what a classic dog victory is ALWAYS going to look like, on a puma or leopard whether it is in a pen or in the wild or whatever. It is going to look like a cat doing nothing. That is called a cat that lost.
As I demonstrated in the breakdown of all the other cat fights, they can not fight for longer than literal seconds, when their initial flurry to either secure dominance or cause damage fails, and the dog grabs them and topples them down and pins them, it is going to look like a cat doing nothing. That is what a defeated cat looks like. It wouldn't have been doing nothing if the dog failed to lock it up and dominate it like that. Even in the case where the street dog (wrongly called a tibetan mastiff) bettered a leopard that tried to attack it, we saw the exact same thing, the dog had the leopard in a muzzle hold and it couldn't fight, it just laid there, until it mustered up a burst of energy to escape. It was submitted. Expecting it to do all cool stuff while being destroyed, and then saying it is invalid when it doesn't... that is really unreasonable. You need to understand a defeated cat looks like a cat not doing anything. You're gonna see similar basically every time a dog wins. Don't blame the dog or invalidate its victory. The dog took the fight out of the cat, that is why its not fighting. Its normal and nothing fishy is going on.
If I said in every case where the puma won that "the dog didn't want to fight", "see how it just fell down and got pinned and didn't even do a cool counter attack and spin out of the hold and then regrip and pin the puma with a cool bite? yeah thats an invalid video because the dog just got owned like a bitch". That would be pretty shit. You can't do that. You can't hold the cat to your expectations of what it should do. It did what anything does when it is completely defeated and has no fight left to give, it went limp. It did what its superior allowed it to do, which was nothing. The video evidence should lower your expectations moving forward. It demonstrates how it is possible for a dogo to subjugate, neutralise and immobilise a puma. Anyone who didn't think it was possible (which I fully empathise with), should henceforth understand how it is possible after seeing it happen. Not reject the reality of it.
Yeah that is cool but I don't agree there's no size difference. There's a visibly apparent size difference, and when they visibly look the same there is still a size difference.
Not saying it's a huge puma, but it is a solid male and the dogo is almost uncharacteristically sleek and lithe. If I learned the puma was 50 kg and the dogo was 35 kgs I would not be surprised.
I can't read the language but I'll say yes, looks like the puma was in control and defeated that dogo. Just goes to show it is well and ruly possible in the pen. If the puma is stronger and better it will win anywhere.
I would just say they ALWAYS give the best performance they can, it is often just not good enough. Kudos to them when it is, but it seems to be rare that their performance is good enough when they are equal in weight and under 50 kgs.
I agree cheetahs are a much lower tier for sure. I don't think a cheetah can beat a german shepherd or really hardly anything above a jackal. I think a big male caracal would beat a cheetah tbh.
Really don't think it is the same guy. I agree THAT guy is dumb. Its always disappointing to see a clearly truly dumb dog supporter.
I don't get the same vibe from the other guy who I think is really argentinian and was not trying to say anything crazy. He kind of mirrored my views actually.
I disagree with you on "act faggotish", I think with the cases in question the dogo's are making them act faggotish, and you don't understand that is a credit to the dogo and the cat would not have acted faggotish on a dog it could beat and kill. The dogo made them a fag, which is what combative domination does to most.
That was one section of words where I just didn't even understand what he was trying to say. I feel like something must be lost in translation. What he said-
"There are videos where 42 kg dogs shake in the air at 60 kgs cougars."
I don't get what he is saying there. If he was suggesting a 42 kg dog picks up a 60 kg cougar and shakes it like a ragdoll, then yeah, that would be nuts. Physically impossible. That is not exactly what he said though, what he said doesn't really make sense but almost sounds like the dogo is in the air shaking? Maybe he means it is biting the puma and holding it and shaking its own body so violently that all 4 of its own feet are off the ground? As dogs often do on bigger beasts like bulls, bears and boars?
I honestly don't know. Might be retarded craziness, might not.
Can't argue.
The way he worded that didn't imply "it eventually lost". It implied it was experienced and fought lots of dogs, but SOME good dogs, interspersed through its career, beat it.
I'm not saying it is true, just saying that is what the guy said. The idea it eventually fizzled out and started losing at the end of its career is coming from you. The guy said something different, that there was a level of very good dogo who could beat it.
Could be total BS. I could almost believe it though. I could imagine there being a puma that could beat MOST dogos and then have a few dogos that were too good for it. There are definitely boars where that is the case. There is a big variation in ability between individual boardogs and their capacity to subjugate problematic adversaries. You have duds and culls, then you have good enoughs, then you have good ones, then you have great ones, then you have legendary world-beaters etc. It stands to reason there are individual pumas that fit between different categories, because pumas ALSO have individual variation. "Tarzan" might have been a good but not great 60 kg puma. And he might have beat great but not legendary dogos. Who knows?
Yeah I don't know. I almost agree, but 60 kg is IMO right on the cusp. You start talking about really good freak 55 kg boar dogs that are carrying their size perfectly well and are legendary world beaters? Maybe they could beat a decent 60 kg male puma. Think about the legendary "smut" of ceylon, not a dogo but a boarhound that weighed 58 kgs, fought countless leopards and was just a total beast warrior that refused to lose. Would it be SO nuts if he beat a decent 60 kg puma? Not to me. There would be the odd individual dogo that was a killer like him also. These individuals pop up where they pop up.
And look, pumas have them too, so... that is what makes for the epic battles you dream of. When it is not just "a dogo" and "a puma", but rather "Damian" the dogo and "Lucifer" the puma, both total legendary bosses in their own right. It is cool think that this matchup is NOT a certainty, it DOES depend on the individuals and can actually go either way. I think THAT is the reality all the evidence kind of points to fairly unambiguously and irrefutably, and to me that is the coolest situation that could exist, and why this is a timeless great matchup.
So long story short, MY take is
We're basically pretty close, I'd move the bar ever so slightly, like your description for 55-60 kg would probably be my description for 60+. "Not a match anymore" would be my description for 70+. Etc. We're very close, but slightly separated. Not so bad.
Again, my opinion is it is not the same guy. I think Christian Brown is a retard too. Luis Ontiveros seems like not a retard, or at least not wrong about puma vs dogo UNLESS he really did imply a 42 kg dogo will ragdoll a 60 kg puma through the air, lol. Jury is out on what he meant there.
Lol well...
I think we are doing a good job of meeting in the middle and then "agreeing to disagree" on the discrepancy. I don't think they are "shit", at any size they are dangerous. I think cats are the most dangerous and lethal carnivore in general, and pumas and leopards are especially nasty ones. BUUT... and there's always a but. I do think if a dogo got actually pinned and dominated in the grapple by a puma that was 40-50 kg puma, I would have to unfortunately say I think it is not a great dogo to me. BUT I think even a great dogo, even a great dogo with a size advantage, could definitely lose a fight against a 40 kg puma via damage accumulation. That might be the best I can do. I expect dogos to control and subjugate pumas in the 40-50 kg weight range. I also expect them to control and subjugate boars of ANY size, 1 on 1, if they want to me to consider them good. I have to keep a high standard, that is what keeps these dogs special. So I think unfortunately there IS shame in a dogo being dominated and pinned and killed outright via a neckbite by a puma under 50 kgs. But no shame in dying from other means, and no shame in being pinned and killed outright by a 60 kg puma, and then no shame in having no chance against a 70 kg puma. I may even forgive a dogo for curring and running away from a 90 kg puma, lol.
