I'm not claiming that ALL pen fights involve wuss wuss cats, if that was the case Caru would have defeated that visually same sized cougar, so would have that other dogo in the pen where it failed to get a dominant position and got its face torn.
If that was the case - you also wouldn't have me and you fighting over whether that leopard killed two fighting boarhounds 2v1 solo or 1v1 in separate occasion; because that account wouldn't exist in first place.
My take is that SOME of them could, as evidenced by that Pinterest image. My other take is most cougars that are captive raised are GENERALLY (not always at all - Caru case , Tupac case and that inconclusive pen where the cougar badly mauled the dogo's face and didn't get subdued are examples confirming that captive cougars can perform well) not as formidable as their counterparts in the wild, and that's exactly what you've also claimed on Wildanimalwarfare once, it's so unethical for cats to be savage gladiators that most of the time it turns out to be a failure:
(Quoted by you)
That's why a wild animal in the wild is a challenge. Because they are going to compete with an attitude not of "poor me, why?! this is horrible!!!" but rather, "Oh yeah? You think you're gonna get me you fuckin dog?! Try this on for size you mother fucker *ruck and gore and attack* Yeah!! haha! Fuck you!". They are enjoying themselves. They are far tougher and harder than precious greenies can comprehend, they have come to accept things are trying to kill them, and they take pleasure in preventing them from doing so. Any individual can get used to its own lifestyle and learn to "get its kicks where it can" and enjoy itself. This is also true for fighting bulls and similar has been mentioned about bears in bear baiting in the past as well.
It's probably NOT true for pumas used in pen fights, because it is so deeply antithetical to everything a feline stands for to stand and fight against an oncoming assailant.Whereas a wild one in the wild would me more of a challenge IMO, because as you said it's not habitual for it to be in such situation with a dog and it will act the more aggressive it can if it gets attacked - on defense.
Intuitively felines would be less likely to take to such a gladitorial lifestyle when compared to boars and bulls who expect to be persecuted and defend themselves regardless of whether or not conditions are favorable, BUT, to their credit, it seems cats can also grow accustomed to it.
We have Victor the leopard from ancient rome, the circus leopard against the boarhounds, we have Wallace the lion, we have the jaguar in the san francisco fight and the other jaguar against multiple pitbulls in brazil, and then yes we have these small spattering of cases of captive pumas that performed well in pen fights.
Then we also have pumas performing badly in the wild. And leopards losing in the wild (all those who fought smut, one who fought another large warhound named pirate in a different baker book, we have the bankhar-ish street dog submitting the leopard that attacked it, etc)
And btw we also have other lion baits. In fact, there are in total 5 recorded lion baits in history. ONLY Nero was a wuss that didn't understand to fight. That is 1 in 5 fights, and the details of that Lion make it very clear why he was like that. He was legitimately "pampered" as a beloved sweet pet and knew nothing of violence.
All the others were probably treated fairly crap. And so they were mean, and so they fought. The percentage of pumas in pen fights that were treated really nice up until the fateful day they were pitted against a dogo? It may not be non-existent, but it is definitely the minority.
Generally speaking it seems cats can take to that nasty lifestyle of fighting in pen fights.
So I don't fully agree with my own quote there. It has basically been disproven by the case studies.
Speaking of the cliff case, we have there a case where the puma was fully wild and did attack. It has also been touted as small but the freeze frames I have shown indicate it was definitely at least as big as the dogo.
It also caused no visible damage to the dogo and was quickly neutralised. So that dispells the idea that massive damage to the dogo is required to prove the cat is even participating in the fight.
You are setting up all these little rules for things to qualify where by the time a fight passes the test it is pretty safe to say the puma is doing great and winning because it is doing all bad ass stuff and causing massive amounts of damage and etc, anything less than that "doesn't count" to you, but those are the cases where the dog dominated. Naturally you are getting a skewed perspective.
A small percentage of them might have genuinely featured a cat that didn't fight and didn't understand violence, the idea it is a significant number is really not supported by the evidence we have where for a cat to be like that it seems it needs to be an actual pampered "fur baby" wuss, not just captive, but spoiled and sheltered. Captive cats can perform and have performed, and wild cats have sometimes not performed when they too were overwhelmed.
Being a pampered pet wuss is a very real handicap indeed, and one that befalls dogs most commonly out of everything. This is where we get fat bullies being scratched up by lynxes and doing nothing and etc. They are like "nero" the lion, just no concept of violence. Some cats in these organised fights may well be like that too, but it is definitely a small minority. Just being captive by itself is not a handicap. It really depends. And apparently being wild is also no surefire way to guarantee bad-assery as well.
I have noticed this with all the many boar hunting videos I have seen as well, the reality is many fully wild boars do absolutely nothing when attacked, just scream and submit. Big game hunter literature that I has posted before have described many bears doing the same. Just submitting and pitifully wailing almost instantly.
There's kind of no rhyme or reason, just individual variation, badasses can be found in the wild and also can wind up in a circus or in posession of some con man or whatever. Ditto for wusses.
I don't agree with discounting every loser as an invalid wuss. Maybe I need to be mindful of this when defending dogs as well. Some cases are blatant, like Nero, like the pit-mommies babies who got scratched by the bobcat or whatever and needed vet attention. Those cases are flagrant, but we shouldn't go overboard with trying to pack every case we don't like the outcome of into that category. That goes for both of us.
I try not to do it. Like the jaguar that defeated multiple pitbulls (I think it was 4 or 5, can't remember), it was a vague article with limited information. I could have assumed they were all shit fat loser pitbulls because I would expect 5 to do better, I could have also tried to argue they were probably released one at a time or something. But I'm choosing not to, because I don't want to be that guy and rationally I think they most likely were illegal fighting dogs to find themself in that situation (fighting a jaguar at some Drug Cartel mansion) and probably pretty damn good.
There was a wolfhound killed by a leopard, witnessed by Jane Goodall (the chimp researcher). I COULD try and argue that wolfhounds aren't shit any more and was probably a big dumb pet... but no. I actually think it was probably a serious steekhar or maritsane type dog and Jane just called it an "Irish Wolfhound" because she didn't know better. I base this on the fact it belonged to a rugged rural property in Kenya (I believe) so yeah I don't think it would be reasonable for me to try and dismiss and downplay the quality of the dog. Logically it was most likely a very good dog indeed (though it is equally logical to assume it was ambushed).
I don't love those cases QUITE as much as you do. There are other cat cases I am impressed by, but those messy situations with too many dogs and traps and humans getting involved and etc, and the dogs gett gashed and wounded... I just have seen it too many times with coyotes and even foxes to equate it to winning a fight. Its a cat being brutally slaughtered and in the chaos I think it is injuring complacent dogs with wild panicked paw swipes and etc. Again... you can see foxes, coyotes, jackals, raccoons and etc etc pull off similar "feats". Even though multiple dogs in a hunt with a man helping obviously is a huge disadvantage for the cougar, it is also a terrible time to judge a dog's performance because it will often be very very shit and lacksadaisical. Sloppy and careless. Desperate flailing from a hugely disadvantaged victim causing injuries ... its cool and bravo for the victim's valiant efforts, but really not that pertinent to a fight analysis. I feel the same way about the leopards flailing amongst a pride of lions. I don't say "well shit if it can do that against 7 lions...". No. That would be a mistake. Its not actually a fight at that point. I know it is counter intuitive to not side with the under-dog victim and give them as much credit as possible for managing to mete out justice to their villainous antagonists against the odds, and you can continue to do so, I just sincerely don't feel it is actually that relevant to a fight. It is so not like an actual fight and is its own different thing, where all hunters know that yes this is when dogs are at most risk of being injured. Not just with pumas and leopards but on far far lesser quarry as well.
It is not just "close to death" though, it is as soon as they feel overwhelmed. It could be 2 seconds in and they could be no where near dead or even injured. Just overcome with helplessness. It happens. Happened to the leopard that tried to prey on the bankhar. It stopped doing anything as soon as the dog latched onto its face. That is not so strange or unusual in a combat scenario. It is just a sudden rush of shock and panick and freezing up, not knowing what to do. Can happen to the best of us. Again, and I stress this with emphasis- it happens in a good percentage of UFC fights with professional fighters. Expecting wild cats to not do it when professional elite human fighters do it, is not reasonable.
In cases where it didn't happen the cat was simply not yet neutralised, yes even in those 17 dogs on one cat and the cat is shot and trapped and etc, yes it technically IS fucked, BUT it is not physically neutralised and subjugated. No single dog is really achieving that in that scenario, and it is still "free" and full of adrenaline and fighting for its life. A neutralising subjugation will take that spirit out of something.
Again it is not fair to have these qualifiers where "the dog wasn't even wounded". The dog wasn't wounded in the cliff video either, despite being attacked by a wild puma in the wild. It did its job properly and neutralised the puma before it managed to do any of that. For you a fight only begins to even count as a fight when the dogo fails to do its job properly. That's not a good starting point for the dog side. With those parameters and those exclusions, I too would notice a trend for pumas to win. You only pay attention to a fight when the puma is winning. Maybe if a dog turns the tables it can win you over. That's a pretty high bar. Sometimes the dog just wins from the start and the cat doesn't get an opportunity to do much because it is neutralised.
Hunters live for the moments where that doesn't happen, and they get an epic fight and the dogs are forced to prove the depth of their intestinal fortitude and prevail when the chips are down and the odds stacked against them. That isn't every hunt, they wish it was, and they'd probably love for people to believe it is. But it is not. Not for pumas or boars or bears or anything. Sometimes everything goes smoothly.
I think you are discounting those cases as invalid, and I don't think that is right. Some little percentage of the cases where things go smoothly for the dog may genuinely be such cases where the puma was never going to fight because it is a wuss and a fag and whatever. I think you are attributing that to too many cases and cases where you don't know that and have no reason to think that. The small clip it cut to of the dogo with the neutralised puma... you might be right, but you also might not be right. Unfortunately a puma being neutralised and a puma not fighting look exactly the same, because what they do when they are neutralised is not fight.
And those are cases where the dog is struggling to attain the neutralising lug. The puma is still in the fight, the fight is still up for grabs and the dog is working to get that neutralising lug. They can struggle and even fail to get it, EXACTLY the way a puma or leopard can struggle and fail to get their neutralising kill-hold when they ambush a dog. The difference is the dog keeps working for it, and NORMALLY the puma or leopard just retreat to try again at a later date. It is the same thing thing though, failing to get the neutralising hold. When a dog does it a cat keeps punishing the dog with its defensive "buzz saw" of pain, trying to make the dog give up, but they have a tendency to not give up. Sometimes even when the buzz saw gets pretty damn crazy, as we have seen with some of the badly wounded and swollen and bleeding dogos. Those are cases where the dogo struggled to get his neutralising hold, and we aren't always sure if he won or lost in the end, but we can tell from the carnage he had difficult. They don't always have difficulty, and it is not only on non-fighting wuss pumas where they don't have difficulty. Sometimes they just don't have difficulty because they succeeed to get the good lug quickly. Just as cats often don't have difficulty when they ambush dogs.
The wolfhound case, it seemed the leopard experienced no difficulty whatsoever. Doesn't invalidate it for me, just means the leopard did its job well.
I just think, as I explained above. You are requiring the dog to fail before you even acknowledge the case, and that isn't fair.
I can agree that wild pumas are PROBABLY less likely to "fail to perform" than "captive pumas" in general. I'm not so sure about those that are used in pen fights. I think, like hogs, some of them can grow accustomed to the fight and may even fight better than a wild puma thats never seen a dogo before. We see evidence of this phenomenon with Victor the roman leopard, and it is a common phenomenon with captive hogs used to train dogs. They can be far worse than any hog you will find in the wild in 1000 outings, because they have practiced so much and are so attuned to what dogs will do. I'm not saying a significant percentage of pumas in pen fights are these style of "conditioned warrior", but it seems they have been alluded to in the case with Tarzan and the case with Tupac. They were noteworthy individuals for their dog fighting ability that they earned through pen fight experience. They might be more serious of a challenge than even a wild puma, or at least a majority of wild puma. That is how it is with other animals, and though I did say it seems cats would "take to the lifestyle" less readily than hogs and bulls and bears, there seems to be support for the idea some do.
Cases where dogs are easily shitwhipping pumas in pens obviously aren't gonna be cases involving these "pro warrior" cats, but they also aren't necessarily total wusses either. They might have wanted to fight and hoped to fight and started out trying before quickly realising they couldn't compete. We didn't actually see the start of the fight that spurred all this and I don't think we can speculate. I just know sometimes, in the wild or in the pen or whatever, sometimes the dog is quickly going to turn the cat into a cat that is not fighting, but that is not an invalid victory for the dog, it is instead an emphatic victory for the dog.
Sometimes there might also be invalid victories, both ways. Like Nero and the 30 lbs bulldog, Like the pitmommy furbabies and the bobcat, etc.
And I'll agree to disagree. The dog is closer to the camera in the top 2 of the 3 shots. In the top photo I admit you really couldn't separate them size-wise if that was the only photo you had, but in the second it is clear, and then in the 3rd where I think they are in equal perspective it is very clear that the puma has a significant weight advantage. In the second photo it is also very clear it is a chunky mature male with a fatter head than the dogo.
I think it is bigger, they are saying its way bigger, but I'm choosing to use my own judgement and say it is at least 10 kgs bigger and more likely 15 kgs bigger. That is my perspective on that. I think we just won't agree on that one.
It would be extremely rare, it did happen, but it's generally a failure, they aren't of this mentality and you'd probably need to experiment generations of generations of captive big cats raised specifically for that to try to see if it's possible to turn them into what we call a gladiator more often than not.
I'm not sure if it's that easy to make an exception the rule via selective breeding. I know gameness is a genetic trait in dogs (especially original old apbts) and that, according to Wikipedia, "can't be trained". For humans I could sliiiiightly disagree, for animals I don't know, I'm not the animal psychology expert here, maybe you are and maybe you can speculate better than me on this.
To be fair I think it would be very weird to actually imagine a selectively bred captive big cat species to perform like a bloodlusted beast in cages and at the same time to be, outside of the cage/arena , a loyal companion to its owner. Pretty much because I think they will never be as loyal as a canid like a dog and that overall, like it happened with Victor the leopard (or perhaps the circus one who killed 2 fighting boarhounds 1v2 or 1v1 x 2) , to create such a monster you must turn that animal in something that hates everyone and everything and perceives anything as a prey to obliterate. Making it impossible to form a bond with it at the same time. Not like with dogs, where the gamest dogs are loyal as nothing comparable to their human companion
Right on last part and wrong on the first one, it's fair because I'm excluding where the cat, from what we have seen, didn't perform at all. I'm not biased, if I would I would claim that all other pens were shit, I didn't claim that, I've not generalized.
Just specified, because that specific cougar in that specific pen didn't do anything, not anything right, just anything.
In most other pen fights - I could remember 3 or 4 - where cougars lost (one was even visually smaller than the dogo) they still did perform much , MUCH better. They didn't stop trying to rake the dogo off them and fought or tried to fight till the end even when they were exhausted, the cougar I've sent has performed not even 1% close to them.
It's just black and white when comparing most other pens where cougars despite losing DID perform to the last without giving up to this specific pen here (and there's also other 2 ones similar to this one). I agree there could be individual variation and that some cougars are just badass individuals while others are a shame for the species, in that case I also say that some dogos can he shit (culls) and that they can differ a lot aswell. That works for both, there's no bias here.
My judging, my rules, no faggotry is the first rule, I want a fair fight with two individuals representing the most formidable individuals you can get at any size required, that's what I call a real show.
Reason for which I don't even consider the video of the large cougar ragdolling a young 85 lbish dogo as valuable evidence, because that was a cur shitty young dogo that would get smoked by any proper dogo in a dog v dog fight, so I'm pretty open to debate harshly cougar fans about the fact we have to exclude that video easily.
You like to see that I don't want to count in that individual pen (rightly so), but again you do not see that I'm at the same time defending some pen accounts in favour of the dogo and the same time discrediting one where a young dogo got smoked by a puma faster than any cougar would ever get.
We didn't see a fight there, the video starts without the cougar fighting and ends without the cougar fighting. It didn't fight for a video straight, so it's not an accurate way to determine how a fight with two determined animals would go on.
There's no evidence that we didn't see the beginning of the fight, the video starts with the cougar wandering around and then cuts to what we see about the fight, why would they even miss the beginning? There's no reason for that. That cougar wasn't a fighter, it was a passive faggot who took it and couldn't even try to cope with the opponent.
At least the cougar in the first video tried to rake the dogo and did that perfectly, despite eventually losing. At least that small cougar who later got defeates by the dogo crawled up and tried to maim the dogo's much larger head and it did it for the whole time even when getting defeated.
That cougar in the video I've sent did nothing, he was a cull of the cat world . I agree that cats despise fighting but not even trying to defend itself while getting assaulted, that's a pure showcase of failure.
You're playing your CF enemies game now btw, you get mad when people mischaracterise your arguments but then you do the same?
I've been talking about
one video (while possibly counting one more) only the whole time in the last days and you claim that I'm doing this to too many ones? "One" is too many? You said yourself it is possible for that to be real, as acknowledged by the Pinterest image I've sent, but I'm not saying all of those are that.
No, again, that's wrong. The dogo succeeded in the hill cliff video, did I acknowledge the case? Yes I did, I do care how the cougar performs, that's it. I also do care how the dogo performs. And both must perform well, no matter the result.
The dogo is doing it's job and it's his job to perform perfectly, my take is that the cougar to be a valid opponent must give at least at the begging the fiercest resistance it can, because that's how a predator on the defense is supposed to act.
My take is that if that cougar there behaved like the paw trapped puma or any other cougar who performed well (even ones who lost first, such as the cliff) it could surely have ranged from at least badly maiming the dogo to eventually even beating it.
The cliff example about the "injuries" is a bad and flawed one because both rolled down a cliff and there just wouldn't be the chance for the cougar to properly rake at it or injure it. Are you able to punch your enemy while rolling down a cliff with your body hitting the ground on any part continuously? No. The account I'm talking about is a pen, on a plain ground, having that cougar kicked back it SURELY would have maimed the dogo badly, I'm 100% confident that it would have seriously raked the dogo if it truly did from start. And that would have likely even changes the outcome.
You like to minimize leopard feats of fighting off larger lions but at the same time consider a 15 lb streetdog biting the scruff of the neck of a 120+ lb leopard that was literally doing nothing the whole time ? That's hypocritical to be fair .
The case with Smuts is particular and it depends extremely on what was happening in first case, if the leopards tried to sneak up and prey on smuts and failed and got fought off sure, they didn't perform good enough to best him. That counts as a defensive victory for Smuts, who got badly torn in the process but fought off the leopard to live another day. That would be a bad leopard performance.
The situation changes completely if Smuts was the one wandering in the woods and decided himself as a catchdog to attack a leopard he ventured into only for later being found terribly and frightfully torn - in that case it is Smuts that couldn't best the leopard. It tried to take on a leopard and got fucked up and torn open in the process with the Leopard being able to make it back off probably because of the nasty injuries and pain to take the opportunity to escape. Exactly what happened with Coco in Texas btw.
It all depends on whether the Leopard attacked Smuts first or viceversa. Because that dramatically changes the take.
Case 1
Leopard sneaks up and attacks Smuts, fights the dog but is unable to subdue it and the fight becomes too elongated and dangerous as the leopard's stamina can't keep it up so retreats.
Dog defensive victory
Case 2
Smuts is wandering in the woods and his catchdog spirit makes it want to maul into oblivion anything it wanders into, this time a leopard. The leopard doesn't go down and defends itself viciously and seriously tears up Smuts with his claws. Smuts is unable to stand all of this pain and damage and momentarily backs off and the leopard escapes with his life
Leopard defensive victory .
See ? It changes dramatically.
What happened with that Warhound? Did it actually kill a leopard or did it get badly maimed and still failed to kill one?
That's why I respect dogs more, while loving cats more. I feel a deeper bond with dogs because they represent me more, but at the same time I've that no-talking attitude. I'm not one that likes to boost his ego by claiming that I don't care about pain etc and that I'm exceptional like you also claimed. No, That depends on the situation. I may have a little of self preservation, I just would have none if I had to protect someone I love. I wouldn't care about the rest. To be honest.
And to me it would be reasonable, do you think I'd call you bias because of this? No, this is personal takes and you have your right to have your take, also it WOULD be reasonable.
There's a chance it was just a farm dog, isn't there? A hunting trained dog exceeds in formidability your average guardian farm dog as it's experienced in subjugating quarry actively on the field. Why would you think I'd consider it unfair? You'd have a point.
Not that a wolfhound kill by a leopard is an impressive one for me tbh, it's just a giant staghound, an adult male leopard without size disadvantage is out of its league by the way. You can confidently claim what you think to defend the wolfhound, I wouldn't even quote you for that because I'd even agree. It could be a farm dog, as you even have evidence that makes this claim pretty rightful aswell. Why would you think it's unfair? I am claiming it now myself. That wolfhound was likely just a farm dog and not a serious hunting dog, just like that cougar was a captive bred failure wuss wuss and not a fighty cougar that performs well.
No, that's not how it works, a cougar in the defense would fight till it is death, no matter if it's winning and defeating the opponent (like the paw trapped cougar being stabbed in the lungs for 1+ seconds but the only one actually complaining was the dogo as the stabbing didn't stop the cougar from tearing open its face, it didn't stop fighting as it was dying) or losing (as example that smaller cougar against the dogo in the pen where the dogo defeated it).
A cougar will stop fighting when it's dead and completely exhausted, a completely exhausted cougar wouldn't be standing and walking, it would be exhausted on the ground and barely moving as some cats do after brutal and intensive hunts of fights. We have a cougar one shotted by a jaguar but jaguar fur was found inside the cougar's mouth, it died fighting and had just one injury - back of the head. So that cougar kept fighting despite its neck getting crushed. An exhausted animal looks differently.
No they can't pull out these feats, they can at best display a low cost badly done replica. At best coyotes against smaller dogs but that's it and still it would be far less as gory as what the cougar did to those dogos.
There's a massive difference between giving ouchies before succumbing instantly and literally beating up while taking a lot to go down despite a major immense disadvantage.
A coyote shot and mauled by a pack of scenthounds would end 20 seconds, perhaps it could get a few bites but that would be just it. A fox would probably die on the shot, similarly with a raccoon.
None of these individuals can actually produce considerable amount of damage in such a situation, the cougar was able to severely damage the snout of a dogo and break off the dogo's canines, the account shared by Espinola went even more south, the cat was doing much more damage and one of the dogos was claimed to be bleeding to death as it was torn open, the best detail about that history is that the cougar's fur was dyed red, not of its blood but of that of the dogo's.
A coyote, fox or raccoon can give little ouchies at best , not even in their dreams they will ever last as long as those cats or even be able to replicate proportionally 1% of the damage they inflicted. Maybe a coyote against a few jagds could.
How's it fatter? Wider at best, cougars have proportionally wider skulls than almost any canid even at parity, with the exception being small gripping dogs.
By the way, it's not larger , it's shorter, a puma needs at least to be 140-150 lbish to have a head larger than most dogos. I have just two skull measurements of dogos and I'm not even sure if others exist - maybe you have them, but I wouldn't be surprised if some dogos scored as much as this one.
Skull length: 230 mm
Skull width : 130 mm
Skull length: 245 mm
Skull width : 140 mm
Cougar average skull measurement x weight l :
Skull length: 216.4 mm
Skull width: 143.9 mm
Body mass : 53 kg
See? Cougars don't have larger skulls than dogos at 115 lbs let alone at lower sizes. From what I see from this picture the dogo's skull is confidently larger and both are literally face to face lol.
You can disagree , but that doesn't change that the dogo has a larger head there and that the cougar isn't much larger, probably just a few kgs heavier. My take is still 36 kg vs 42 kg max
