|
|
Post by s on Sept 26, 2023 21:35:47 GMT
Pretty cool. HOWEVER I believe he wasn't insulting pumas, but instead trying to catch everyone up to speed since there were like 100 angry comments spreading dumb misinfo. 99% of which were - A. it has no claws or teeth B. it's a bull terrier Someone claiming a 50 kg cougar isn't shit to a 40 kg dogo not only shows clearly he's got no idea what he's talking about but even downgrades and disrespects cougars in the same exact way LGD fans claim a 25 kg apbt terrier ain't shit for a 70 kg fluffy Tibetan mastiff. Thank god we have a good handful of cases that prove him wrong. Not even in debates with wolf fans I've come close to disrespecting the wolf this close, sure they ain't shit for cougars or leopards, but they can be at least troublesome for females, we have an instance of a female cougar getting killed ny a male wolf on a carcass solo. No matter how delusional or retarded the fanboy I'll face can be, I'll never downgrade his favourite animal. I'm not like him, because said animal fans always turn out being haters and hardcore fanboys, just like Bisonking did. Did you remember your first angry debates with me? I remember you using insults when talking about my "totem animal". I have never on the other hand insulted an animal, not a dog, not a wolf, not a spinosaurus, not a shark.
Even in the harshest debates I can enter I'll never do that, because my actual love and respect for the animal is a true one, a valuable one. It's too strong. Therefore when compared to the type of debater who insults and pays no respect to animals I'm stronger, I'm smarter. I'm better.
I AM better.
Absolutely. The author himself mentions that the fight took place in the Northern Pampas, so we are likely dealing with a 50-60kg male that performed very well considering it's chances. Not a 70kg+ male from South Patagonia. |
|
|
|
Post by Bolushi on Sept 26, 2023 21:39:17 GMT
What a badass cougar, was outmatched and outnumbered but at the same time managed to seriously injure all of the dogos. What a beast. Yeah, what a Chad. The other Hunter went to stab the Puma in order to prevent further damage from being inflicted against the Dogos. The Dogos were also chads as well that fought until the end. Remember though it's not really accurate to say the hunter is stabbing the cat to prevent further damage or save the dogs or whatever. That's what they intended to kill the puma with anyway. |
|
|
|
Post by Bolushi on Sept 26, 2023 21:40:31 GMT
"Ronnie! I shout in vain to my dog that I can no longer hold back. My heart is beating so hard that it's going to explode. I see! I see the puma, it is no more than 15 meters away, in a little valley, its tail short, the air whipping, it knows it is surrounded, it turns slowly, showing us its fangs. For the first time, fear twists my stomach. It can jump to any of us. We frantically looked at Tapia. He raises his hand. Agreed signal. Luis, the photographer. You already have your machines ready. I reach for one. Extra breathing causes drool to drip from the dogs' mouths. Oooh! oooh! They howl. Tapia lowers his arm. In a lightning leap the dogs reach the puma. A wave of intense excitement runs through us all. jump from one stone to another. I think; “come closer, come closer” and in a second I realize that the photographer, i and the others were standing a meter away from the puma." "At our feet the fiercest fight I have seen in my entire life breaks out. The shouting is infernal, the barking mixes with the roaring, The dogs' howls of pain pierce my ears. Everything is confusion. Dogs and puma seem to form a single body. Intertwined with each other, they are a perfect ball and no one is willing to let go of their opponent. The puma screams and fights lying down. Its four legs tear the body of the bulldogs with impressive claws. Dramatically its fur is dyed red. Eyes closed, mouth twisted, he growls ferociously, waiting for the hunter to come and finish off the prey. "the Puma is killing the Dogs!" shouts Lito, i can see that Ronnie, the bitch i was holding is bleeding to death, but while still dying, she doesn't want to let go off the Puma's throat. Tapia (second Hunter) approaches with a facón (knife) in his hand. His face is ashen screaming" "But the strongest of the bulldogs, he seems to understand his master and asserts himself even more over his prey. I now understand that strong bond of friendship, that great love that unites the hunter with the Dogo Argentino. The bulldog, a loving dog in the home, is the bravest soldier in combat. Fight until death. The end is near. Tapia leaned close to the puma's hind legs. Look for the precise place to stick the knife to the heart. This thorough hunter never uses firearms that could hurt dogs. His armed hand in a withering gesture sinks into the puma's chest. And his head falls..." "On that evening, the puma died like a brave man, before the immeasurable courage of the Dogos Argentinos." As you can see. It was a pretty even fight and the writer admires the Puma as a brave and worthy rival during his retelling of his personal experience. Actual Puma-hunters respect them as worthy rivals, they don't insult them What a badass cougar, was outmatched and outnumbered but at the same time managed to seriously injure all of the dogos. What a beast. I'm thinking the scene might've been similar to the video where the cougar bit through the Dogo's nose and made it scream. They describe a similar fight. Perhaps a little more brutal though. |
|
|
|
Post by CoolJohnson on Sept 27, 2023 1:27:23 GMT
It depends on the subspecies.
If it is a small Mexican cougar, it might lose.
If is a mid-sized American or Brazilian specimen, it could win with some difficulty.
If it is a large one like a BC or Patagonian specimen, then the dog is more or less a prey item.
|
|
|
|
Post by s on Sept 27, 2023 6:37:13 GMT
Yeah, what a Chad. The other Hunter went to stab the Puma in order to prevent further damage from being inflicted against the Dogos. The Dogos were also chads as well that fought until the end. Remember though it's not really accurate to say the hunter is stabbing the cat to prevent further damage or save the dogs or whatever. That's what they intended to kill the puma with anyway. You are right, i think the Hunter originally wanted to stab it. But after the fight went far more south than he expected he changed plans to stab the Puma before he originally intended to. |
|
|
|
Post by grippingwhiteness on Sept 27, 2023 9:25:12 GMT
What a badass cougar, was outmatched and outnumbered but at the same time managed to seriously injure all of the dogos. What a beast. I'm thinking the scene might've been similar to the video where the cougar bit through the Dogo's nose and made it scream. They describe a similar fight. Perhaps a little more brutal though. Yea it's similar but also too different. The video you and me know about has only one dogo getting injured by the cougar. Although it was pretty metal because the cougar managed to damage it's snout and even make the dogo lose its canines with such bites (I sincerely do not know how the cougar was able to break the dogo's teeth, it's weird) it was just one dogo getting all of it, and not as brutal as the instance described by S. My take is this case is similar to that cape leopard fighting for an hour and half 3 Boarhounds (Boerboels) and critically injuring one despite a 3v1 situation. This ranks as the best cougar feat against catchdogs in 1 v multiple scenarios, imo in solo scenarios the cougar defeating Caru and the pawtrapped cougar beating that attacking dogo are the best solo feats still - |
|
|
|
Post by s on Sept 27, 2023 9:35:09 GMT
I'm thinking the scene might've been similar to the video where the cougar bit through the Dogo's nose and made it scream. They describe a similar fight. Perhaps a little more brutal though. Yea it's similar but also too different. The video you and me know about has only one dogo getting injured by the cougar. Although it was pretty metal because the cougar managed to damage it's snout and even make the dogo lose its canines with such bites (I sincerely do not know how the cougar was able to break the dogo's teeth, it's weird) it was just one dogo getting all of it, and not as brutal as the instance described by S. My take is this case is similar to that cape leopard fighting for an hour and half 3 Boarhounds (Boerboels) and critically injuring one despite a 3v1 situation. This ranks as the best cougar feat against catchdogs in 1 v multiple scenarios, imo in solo scenarios the cougar defeating Caru and the pawtrapped cougar beating that attacking dogo are the best solo feats still - Here is the book where i got the account from, again, the author has been hunting Peccaries and Boars for decades with his Dogos. And yet described that fight with the Puma as "the fiercest fight of my entire life" |
|
|
|
Post by s on Sept 27, 2023 9:44:50 GMT
Here is one of the Boars he hunted with the Dogos, looks pretty big, so him describing the fight with the Puma as the "fiercest of my life" carries weight since the bar was quite high. Considering he hunted a lot of large Boars and Peccaries with his Dogos before.  |
|
|
|
Post by grippingwhiteness on Sept 27, 2023 9:48:09 GMT
Here is one of the Boars he hunted with the Dogos, looks pretty big, so him describing the fight with the Puma as the "fiercest of my life" carries weight since the bar was quite high. Considering he hunted a lot of large Boars and Peccaries with his Dogos before. I have to be honest but those are no "large" boars. I've seen dogos on WAY larger ones. Are there pictures of the puma hunt? |
|
|
|
Post by Hardcastle on Sept 27, 2023 10:10:21 GMT
Was gonna say, those boars are mid... but anyway I have a lot to respond to here. Lots of really pertinent points need to be addressed.
|
|
|
|
Post by Hardcastle on Sept 27, 2023 10:57:49 GMT
s Here's the real truth- Hunters ALWAYS over-respect and over-hype their prey, and never over-hype their dogs. One of the worst mischaracterisations that you commonly get with dog-doubters is this idea that hunters are lying and cheating to hype up their precious dogs and shit on wild animals which they hate. Shows they know nothing about hunters. No - hunters are the biggest fan boys of wild animals, and are absolutely obsessed with the romance of the difficult hunt. A hunt where multiple dogs are laid to waste and strewn about and then they somehow overcome the quarry anyway (or better yet- even fail to), THOSE are the stories they live for. THAT is where the "glory" of hunting lays. Not in dogs easily dominating the quarry and then they just walk over and sigh and kill it, or worse the dog kills it before they get there. That happens too, but they would NEVER bother talking about that, they hate that. Hunters don't even like their dogs that much. They are tools. My cousin is a very serious and very typical hunter. If one of his dogs gets killed on a hunt his eyes light up and it will be his favourite story to talk about. He is mean to his dogs and never sings their praises, just criticises them and threatens them. When he got in trouble for having too many dogs, they said he needs to pay a fine and then when they come back he needs to have the dogs registered and then also sell or give some away to other people. So they come back to check and he has the number of dogs he is allowed to have, they say "where are the others?", like they need to be accounted for as well, and registered as living wherever their new home is. "snake bit em" is his reply. He just shot them all. That is how these guys operate. Dogs are nothing to them. The quarry is everything. After a career of being totally perfect and putting their life on the line and eventually dying, THEN a hunter might reflect and say "you know what... that dog was a good dog". That's the best a hunting dog can hope for, never mind the other 25 who all died in action, they were all pieces of shit and the hunter will be glad they are dead. Certainly not lose any sleep over it. This idea that hunters are babying their precious dogs and cheating for their benefit to save their dogs and all that, total horse shit. Their dogs are nothing to them, disposable like bullets. The quarry is everything. Dogs dying on a hunt is almost desirable outcome, that means you really did something. That story is great obviously. But he didn't tell the other 50 where the puma died like a coward and didn't do shit. Like he said that was the best one ever. He wants what happened there, that is why they are in the game, but that is a rare "holy grail" precious treat when that happens. The same is true for boar hunts, I recently posted the epic story from legendary big game hunter Samuel White Baker, where a mighty boar decimated an entire pack of dogs and nearly cut in half the bravest dog Baker ever owned. That kind of hunt is what hunters live for, but that is a one in a million hunt. He didn't write about all the times a single dog easily handled and subdued a squealing boar and he just mosied over and knifed it, but the reality is that is most hunts. That's the norm, and that would be the norm with pumas as well. Hunters don't want to talk about those boring realities. What that means is that when they DO have those epic hunts where the dogs get smashed, they have a big motivation to actually lie and exaggerate and make it even more epic. That's like the "big fish that got away... it was the size of a tree... no no, a bus!". They are NEVER going to exagerrate and say "you should have seen how easily my dog killed a puma", that is the most boring worst case scenario for them, like lying about how easy it was to catch a small fish. No one would do that, but dog doubters genuinely seem to think hunters are going around and lying to hype up their dogs and diminish wild animals. No they do the exact opposite. The dogs are unsung heroes if ever such a thing existed, nothing is more unsung and undersold and downplayed quite like the gripping dog in the hunting world. Occassionally you catch hunters out. Most of the time they are hyping up wild animals and exaggerrating, but sometimes when they are all in a group doing it they realise the other guys are full of shit and they do police bullshitting among one another. This was made very very clear on a classic thread at the biggamehoundsmen forum, where the topic of hunting bobcats was being discussed. One guy early on tried the whole "a tornado of razor blades, and my dog was cut to ribbons like he was put into a blender" and slowly but surely all the other hunters were "eh... I don't think that's true, 40 years of hunting bobcats I've never had a dog hurt" "yeah, it kind of sucks, I can't seem to have them stay alive long enough for me to even get there and shoot them" "me too, any tips on softening dogs so they don't kill bobcats in seconds" and the truth gradually came out in this quiet corner of the internet that they are actually nothing at all for even the softest walker hounds to kill in seconds. But if a layman was in a bar with one of these hunters, OH how the hunter would have delighted in pretending that bobcats cut dogs to ribbons, that is what they WANT to do, but the bullshit-o-meter just got too out of control and they couldn't stomach it any more in that private thread away from the publics prying eyes. They have every motivation to pretend the animals they hunt are dangerous deadly super monsters, because all they ever hear is criticism from greenies calling them cowards for killing innocent animals. That is their concern, not pretending their dogs are super animals, but pretending the quarry are super monsters from hell and they are doing a brave thing and doing the world a service by putting their lives on the line and killing them. That is their angle and that is their motivation, and you need to know that when reading hunter testimony. And looking at artworks, look at any "boar hunt art" and it is 10 dogs strewn about in various states of misery being destroyed by a wild boar. And that might happen on 1 in 800 boar hunts, but they choose that 1 in 800 for the painting because THAT is the dream situation. Ditto for the hunting stories. Neither the artworks nor stories will ever depict the norm, which is the dogs doing their job without much fuss. Its always the craziest scenario. They do a lot of that, over-inflating and building up the quarry as a supervillain, that is their presentation to the general public, but then also have moments of weakness where they can't stand the bullshit and then correct common myths and over-inflations, preferably just among themselves so they can maintain their heroic image to the public. I have always maintained there are big super "macho" male pumas and leopards that can wreek havoc on dogs, and those with really good memories will know that I have said clearly that when you are talking about such a foe it almost doesn't matter how many dogs. Number of dogs can become irrelevant with any quarry if the quarry gets too high above the best individual dog in the pack. If no 1 dog can control it, it can destroy a whole pack no issue. I have made this clear much to the confusion of many. But that is also WHY it is so significant that pumas CAN be hunted dogo argentinos. The pack doesn't even matter, if such dogs are viable on puma, it means A dogo can actually control and subdue a puma. Most of the time. Just as they can with boars. Not on this occassion, this was a special puma, and it was better than the dogs hunting it. Full credit to that beast. "Chad" indeed, but there are so many layers of understanding that need to be worked through here. So many misconceptions about hunters and hunting and dogs in hunting and etc etc. It took me decades to learn and will no doubt take me decades to teach as well, and that is best case scenario, if people are even open to learning the information. The "reject and deny and ignore" counter strategy will assuredly work wonders at preventing me from succeeding.
|
|
|
|
Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Sept 27, 2023 11:40:12 GMT
I've got to say it, Hardcastle is really frustrated at the ignorance of virtually 99% of the human race about hunters and hunting dogs knowledge. |
|
|
|
Post by s on Sept 27, 2023 11:40:56 GMT
s Here's the real truth- Hunters ALWAYS over-respect and over-hype their prey, and never over-hype their dogs. One of the worst mischaracterisations that you commonly get with dog-doubters is this idea that hunters are lying and cheating to hype up their precious dogs and shit on wild animals which they hate. Shows they know nothing about hunters. No - hunters are the biggest fan boys of wild animals, and are absolutely obsessed with the romance of the difficult hunt. A hunt where multiple dogs are laid to waste and strewn about and then they somehow overcome the quarry anyway (or better yet- even fail to), THOSE are the stories they live for. THAT is where the "glory" of hunting lays. Not in dogs easily dominating the quarry and then they just walk over and sigh and kill it, or worse the dog kills it before they get there. That happens too, but they would NEVER bother talking about that, they hate that. Hunters don't even like their dogs that much. They are tools. My cousin is a very serious and very typical hunter. If one of his dogs gets killed on a hunt his eyes light up and it will be his favourite story to talk about. He is mean to his dogs and never sings their praises, just criticises them and threatens them. When he got in trouble for having too many dogs, they said he needs to pay a fine and then when they come back he needs to have the dogs registered and then also sell or give some away to other people. So they come back to check and he has the number of dogs he is allowed to have, they say "where are the others?", like they need to be accounted for as well, and registered as living wherever their new home is. "snake bit em" is his reply. He just shot them all. That is how these guys operate. Dogs are nothing to them. The quarry is everything. After a career of being totally perfect and putting their life on the line and eventually dying, THEN a hunter might reflect and say "you know what... that dog was a good dog". That's the best a hunting dog can hope for, never mind the other 25 who all died in action, they were all pieces of shit and the hunter will be glad they are dead. Certainly not lose any sleep over it. This idea that hunters are babying their precious dogs and cheating for their benefit to save their dogs and all that, total horse shit. Their dogs are nothing to them, disposable like bullets. The quarry is everything. Dogs dying on a hunt is almost desirable outcome, that means you really did something. That story is great obviously. But he didn't tell the other 50 where the puma died like a coward and didn't do shit. Like he said that was the best one ever. He wants what happened there, that is why they are in the game, but that is a rare "holy grail" precious treat when that happens. The same is true for boar hunts, I recently posted the epic story from legendary big game hunter Samuel White Baker, where a mighty boar decimated an entire pack of dogs and nearly cut in half the bravest dog Baker ever owned. That kind of hunt is what hunters live for, but that is a one in a million hunt. He didn't write about all the times a single dog easily handled and subdued a squealing boar and he just mosied over and knifed it, but the reality is that is most hunts. That's the norm, and that would be the norm with pumas as well. Hunters don't want to talk about those boring realities. What that means is that when they DO have those epic hunts where the dogs get smashed, they have a big motivation to actually lie and exaggerate and make it even more epic. That's like the "big fish that got away... it was the size of a tree... no no, a bus!". They are NEVER going to exagerrate and say "you should have seen how easily my dog killed a puma", that is the most boring worst case scenario for them, like lying about how easy it was to catch a small fish. No one would do that, but dog doubters genuinely seem to think hunters are going around and lying to hype up their dogs and diminish wild animals. No they do the exact opposite. The dogs are unsung heroes if ever such a thing existed, nothing is more unsung and undersold and downplayed quite like the gripping dog in the hunting world. Occassionally you catch hunters out. Most of the time they are hyping up wild animals and exaggerrating, but sometimes when they are all in a group doing it they realise the other guys are full of shit and they do police bullshitting among one another. This was made very very clear on a classic thread at the biggamehoundsmen forum, where the topic of hunting bobcats was being discussed. One guy early on tried the whole "a tornado of razor blades, and my dog was cut to ribbons like he was put into a blender" and slowly but surely all the other hunters were "eh... I don't think that's true, 40 years of hunting bobcats I've never had a dog hurt" "yeah, it kind of sucks, I can't seem to have them stay alive long enough for me to even get there and shoot them" "me too, any tips on softening dogs so they don't kill bobcats in seconds" and the truth gradually came out in this quiet corner of the internet that they are actually nothing at all for even the softest walker hounds to kill in seconds. But if a layman was in a bar with one of these hunters, OH how the hunter would have delighted in pretending that bobcats cut dogs to ribbons, that is what they WANT to do, but the bullshit-o-meter just got too out of control and they couldn't stomach it any more in that private thread away from the publics prying eyes. They have every motivation to pretend the animals they hunt are dangerous deadly super monsters, because all they ever hear is criticism from greenies calling them cowards for killing innocent animals. That is their concern, not pretending their dogs are super animals, but pretending the quarry are super monsters from hell and they are doing a brave thing and doing the world a service by putting their lives on the line and killing them. That is their angle and that is their motivation, and you need to know that when reading hunter testimony. And looking at artworks, look at any "boar hunt art" and it is 10 dogs strewn about in various states of misery being destroyed by a wild boar. And that might happen on 1 in 800 boar hunts, but they choose that 1 in 800 for the painting because THAT is the dream situation. Ditto for the hunting stories. Neither the artworks nor stories will ever depict the norm, which is the dogs doing their job without much fuss. Its always the craziest scenario. They do a lot of that, over-inflating and building up the quarry as a supervillain, that is their presentation to the general public, but then also have moments of weakness where they can't stand the bullshit and then correct common myths and over-inflations, preferably just among themselves so they can maintain their heroic image to the public. I have always maintained there are big super "macho" male pumas and leopards that can wreek havoc on dogs, and those with really good memories will know that I have said clearly that when you are talking about such a foe it almost doesn't matter how many dogs. Number of dogs can become irrelevant with any quarry if the quarry gets too high above the best individual dog in the pack. If no 1 dog can control it, it can destroy a whole pack no issue. I have made this clear much to the confusion of many. But that is also WHY it is so significant that pumas CAN be hunted dogo argentinos. The pack doesn't even matter, if such dogs are viable on puma, it means A dogo can actually control and subdue a puma. Most of the time. Just as they can with boars. Not on this occassion, this was a special puma, and it was better than the dogs hunting it. Full credit to that beast. "Chad" indeed, but there are so many layers of understanding that need to be worked through here. So many misconceptions about hunters and hunting and dogs in hunting and etc etc. It took me decades to learn and will no doubt take me decades to teach as well, and that is best case scenario, if people are even open to learning the information. The "reject and deny and ignore" counter strategy will assuredly work wonders at preventing me from succeeding. "Those weren't good dogos" excuse doesn't work here. In that book the Hunter goes into details about each of the Dogos he used. The Dogos that fought that Pampas Puma already had lots of experience hunting Boar and Peccary. As already stated by him |
|
|
|
Post by s on Sept 27, 2023 12:11:25 GMT
I've got to say it, Hardcastle is really frustrated at the ignorance of virtually 99% of the human race about hunters and hunting dogs knowledge. Most of the book the Author isn't even talking about hunting experiences, but about his decades in Dogo Argentino clubs and constantly praising them, going on about their ideal anatomy, how they best operate, how good multipurpose hunting dogs they are, dedicated entire paragraphs to some of the Dogos he owned, ect, the author clearly loves the breed. There is no reason why him praising the Puma in that segment wouldn't be sincere as well. |
|
|
|
Post by Hardcastle on Sept 27, 2023 12:27:32 GMT
I didn't say it is not sincere, sounds like that was genuinely an epic puma which gave his dogs hell, and yeah they don't sound bad either because they hung in there.
Also note that is not a typical hunter if he is involved in dogo argentino clubs and writing books about the breed. That is a dogo argentino enthusiast + hunter. Most hunters aren't passionate about dogs like that. In fact it is quite rare for those two worlds to meet, and when they do it can be a conflict of interest because the callous disregard hunters have for dogs is unfortunately the reason the dogs are good. In that respect those hunters/breeders are like mother nature, who also doesn't give a shit about "her" animals. If someone is passionate about breed X that can compromise the cut-throat nature of their performance breeding selections. Breeding purebreeds is automatically a compromise. Maybe this guy just has a nice perfect balance of respect for both, but I'm talking in a general sense that hunters usually have way over-inflated reverence for wild game and take their dogs totally for granted.
|
|
