Jaguar vs Smilodon Gracilis

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The jaguar (Panthera onca) is a large cat species and the only living member of the genus Panthera native to the Americas. With a body length of up to 1.85 m (6 ft 1 in) and a weight of up to 158 kg (348 lb), it is the largest cat species in the Americas and the third largest in the world. Its distinctively marked coat features pale yellow to tan colored fur covered by spots that transition to rosettes on the sides, although a melanistic black coat appears in some individuals. The jaguar's powerful bite allows it to pierce the carapaces of turtles and tortoises, and to employ an unusual killing method: it bites directly through the skull of mammalian prey between the ears to deliver a fatal blow to the brain.

Overall, Smilodon was more robustly built than any extant cat, with particularly well-developed forelimbs and exceptionally long upper canine teeth. Its jaw had a bigger gape than that of modern cats, and its upper canines were slender and fragile, being adapted for precision killing. S. gracilis was the smallest species at 55 to 100 kg (120 to 220 lb) in weight. S. fatalis had a weight of 160 to 280 kg (350 to 620 lb) and height of 100 cm (39 in). Both of these species are mainly known from North America, but remains from South America have also been attributed to them. S. populator from South America was the largest species, at 220 to 436 kg (485 to 961 lb) in weight and 120 cm (47 in) in height, and was among the largest known felids. The coat pattern of Smilodon is unknown, but it has been artistically restored with plain or spotted patterns.

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@ajay @ling
I'm not sure, Smilodon had very strong forelimbs to completely subjugate their prey to deliver their specialized killing bite. Jaguars do this as well, to be fair, and they should be comparably robust. Smilodon tackled bison while jaguar today can kill cattle:



Very impressive considering all of those cattle were killed by females, I'm starting to think sexual dimorphism doesn't exist at all in jaguars besides a bit of size difference. Leopards and cougars are very sexually dimorphic, the females being cowardly jokes.
I think jaguars would prey on bison if (when) they get access to them. Cattle and bison aren't too far apart.
Perhaps with Smilodon's more specialized bite its forelimbs would be stronger, but it would have to completely subdue the jaguar and deliver a precise bite to the neck or skull which I don't think would fly very well.

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No thoughts on this one? Thought this would be a bit popular.

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My initial thought is to favor the Smilodon. I think it would pierce the jaguar’s throat with its long canines. S. gracilis should still be comparable in robusticity to a jaguar despite being more gracile than S. populator.

[Hardcastle]

Dec 30, 2022 1:56:40 GMT Bolushi said:

No thoughts on this one? Thought this would be a bit popular.

I think it's a really good matchup, but that's part of the problem. It's hard to pick a winner. They're actually extremely closely matched by my estimation. I think smilodons were probably beastly fighters in the cat-style sense, in that their pronounced powerful forelimbs would help them control their opponent. They seem specialised for larger prey and that tends to translate to superior struggling abilities which put you in good stead in a fight (hence the history of bulldogs becoming the fighting dogs).
The jaguar however is also a special pantherine, unusually strong and robust itself, and they're about the same size as this particular smilodon ... it's a battle for the ages.

[Deleted]

50/50 imo.

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Machairodonts > Pantherines

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Dec 29, 2022 6:44:18 GMT Bolushi said:

@ajay @ling
I'm not sure, Smilodon had very strong forelimbs to completely subjugate their prey to deliver their specialized killing bite. Jaguars do this as well, to be fair, and they should be comparably robust. Smilodon tackled bison while jaguar today can kill cattle:



Very impressive considering all of those cattle were killed by females, I'm starting to think sexual dimorphism doesn't exist at all in jaguars besides a bit of size difference. Leopards and cougars are very sexually dimorphic, the females being cowardly jokes.
I think jaguars would prey on bison if (when) they get access to them. Cattle and bison aren't too far apart.
Perhaps with Smilodon's more specialized bite its forelimbs would be stronger, but it would have to completely subdue the jaguar and deliver a precise bite to the neck or skull which I don't think would fly very well.

Yeah a Jaguar can kill cattle, but cattle are timid and domestic, and have no experience in fighting predators, while a bison could actually put up a fight.

Smilodon wins.

[Hardcastle]

I strongly disagree.
Killing cattle seems to be very difficult for a lot of wild predators. Puma don't do it. Black bears don't do it. Brown bears struggle to do it and mostly don't (there are vast unguarded cattle herds in coastal alaska that live among giant grizzly bears for 8 months unsupervised, losses are minimal). Leopards and jaguars actually do it rarely. Cattle ranchers in the pantanal are switching to taurine cattle rather than zebu cattle (like all those pictured) and are finding they have no losses. Leopards also only usually kill zebu cattle. I have seen lions and tigers get brutally thwarted trying to attack cattle on documentaries (Though they are legitimate cattle threats).

That characterisation of cattle being soft targets is simply not fair and not accurate. When you understand the reality of cattle grazing the fact is most cattle live wild and free on expansive ranges with no one to protect them for many miles. They retain full anti-predator capabilities. Mostly. There are exceptions, zebu cattle have traditionally lived and worked closer to humans, and then of course there are boutique hobby farming breeds, but serious taurine beef cattle with in-tact social units complete with bulls can look after themselves very well, and have all through their history since they were wild aurochs.

Zebu cattle flee when jaguars approach, leaving vulnerable calves behind. In contrast, San Martinero cattle stand their ground. Males and females both have pointy horns, and adults circle around calves to protect them. Bulls patrol the outer edges of the territory, and warn off predators with a distinctive whistle. According to Payán, jaguars actually learn the San Martinero whistle, and eventually avoid these herds. Payán cites other anti-predator traits as well: cows birth standing up and calves can stand almost immediately and wean quickly. “Just like wildebeest on the Serengeti,” he says.

link

Depredation by pumas and jaguars had a negative correlation with age of the killed animals (p < 0.05; rs = 0.80), being more frequent in newborns (0–2 months) and practically absent in calves older than 8 months (only nine animals above 12 months old).

link

[Deleted]

Jan 6, 2023 8:28:53 GMT Hardcastle said:

I strongly disagree.
Killing cattle seems to be very difficult for a lot of wild predators. Puma don't do it. Black bears don't do it. Brown bears struggle to do it and mostly don't (there are vast unguarded cattle herds in coastal alaska that live among giant grizzly bears for 8 months unsupervised, losses are minimal). Leopards and jaguars actually do it rarely. Cattle ranchers in the pantanal are switching to taurine cattle rather than zebu cattle (like all those pictured) and are finding they have no losses. Leopards also only usually kill zebu cattle. I have seen lions and tigers get brutally thwarted trying to attack cattle on documentaries (Though they are legitimate cattle threats).

That characterisation of cattle being soft targets is simply not fair and not accurate. When you understand the reality of cattle grazing the fact is most cattle live wild and free on expansive ranges with no one to protect them for many miles. They retain full anti-predator capabilities. Mostly. There are exceptions, zebu cattle have traditionally lived and worked closer to humans, and then of course there are boutique hobby farming breeds, but serious taurine beef cattle with in-tact social units complete with bulls can look after themselves very well, and have all through their history since they were wild aurochs.

Zebu cattle flee when jaguars approach, leaving vulnerable calves behind. In contrast, San Martinero cattle stand their ground. Males and females both have pointy horns, and adults circle around calves to protect them. Bulls patrol the outer edges of the territory, and warn off predators with a distinctive whistle. According to Payán, jaguars actually learn the San Martinero whistle, and eventually avoid these herds. Payán cites other anti-predator traits as well: cows birth standing up and calves can stand almost immediately and wean quickly. “Just like wildebeest on the Serengeti,” he says.

link

Depredation by pumas and jaguars had a negative correlation with age of the killed animals (p < 0.05; rs = 0.80), being more frequent in newborns (0–2 months) and practically absent in calves older than 8 months (only nine animals above 12 months old).

link

I mean why would they risk fighting a 700 kg animal?

If smilodon gracilis was actively hunting bison then that just makes your point worse.

[Hardcastle]

Jan 6, 2023 8:37:24 GMT @ling said:

Jan 6, 2023 8:28:53 GMT Hardcastle said:

I strongly disagree.
Killing cattle seems to be very difficult for a lot of wild predators. Puma don't do it. Black bears don't do it. Brown bears struggle to do it and mostly don't (there are vast unguarded cattle herds in coastal alaska that live among giant grizzly bears for 8 months unsupervised, losses are minimal). Leopards and jaguars actually do it rarely. Cattle ranchers in the pantanal are switching to taurine cattle rather than zebu cattle (like all those pictured) and are finding they have no losses. Leopards also only usually kill zebu cattle. I have seen lions and tigers get brutally thwarted trying to attack cattle on documentaries (Though they are legitimate cattle threats).

That characterisation of cattle being soft targets is simply not fair and not accurate. When you understand the reality of cattle grazing the fact is most cattle live wild and free on expansive ranges with no one to protect them for many miles. They retain full anti-predator capabilities. Mostly. There are exceptions, zebu cattle have traditionally lived and worked closer to humans, and then of course there are boutique hobby farming breeds, but serious taurine beef cattle with in-tact social units complete with bulls can look after themselves very well, and have all through their history since they were wild aurochs.

link

link

I mean why would they risk fighting a 700 kg animal?

If smilodon gracilis was actively hunting bison then that just makes your point worse.

If they spend their lives for generations "not risking it", the end result is they can't do it. I'm not gonna risk bench pressing 300 lbs, smart move on my part, but at the end of the day the result of my intelligence will be an inability to bench press 300 lbs. You have to use it or lose it.

Jaguars do prey on cattle, but selectively and with a poor success rate. Pretty typical predator/prey relationship.

Smilodon gracilis vs bison was undoubtedly similar. Prime healthy bison had nothing to worry about, and we know this because smilodon gracilis coexisted with bison and bison thrived alongside smilodon gracilis.

[Deleted]

Jan 6, 2023 8:37:24 GMT @ling said:

Jan 6, 2023 8:28:53 GMT Hardcastle said:

I strongly disagree.
Killing cattle seems to be very difficult for a lot of wild predators. Puma don't do it. Black bears don't do it. Brown bears struggle to do it and mostly don't (there are vast unguarded cattle herds in coastal alaska that live among giant grizzly bears for 8 months unsupervised, losses are minimal). Leopards and jaguars actually do it rarely. Cattle ranchers in the pantanal are switching to taurine cattle rather than zebu cattle (like all those pictured) and are finding they have no losses. Leopards also only usually kill zebu cattle. I have seen lions and tigers get brutally thwarted trying to attack cattle on documentaries (Though they are legitimate cattle threats).

That characterisation of cattle being soft targets is simply not fair and not accurate. When you understand the reality of cattle grazing the fact is most cattle live wild and free on expansive ranges with no one to protect them for many miles. They retain full anti-predator capabilities. Mostly. There are exceptions, zebu cattle have traditionally lived and worked closer to humans, and then of course there are boutique hobby farming breeds, but serious taurine beef cattle with in-tact social units complete with bulls can look after themselves very well, and have all through their history since they were wild aurochs.

link

link

I mean why would they risk fighting a 700 kg animal?

If smilodon gracilis was actively hunting bison then that just makes your point worse.

African leopards opted to prey on warthogs and impalas 24/7. For this reason they are not very strong and cannot take the same animals as jaguars. Because... why would they risk taking on a 700kg zebra?

[Deleted]

Jan 6, 2023 19:05:55 GMT Bolushi said:

Jan 6, 2023 8:37:24 GMT @ling said:

I mean why would they risk fighting a 700 kg animal?

If smilodon gracilis was actively hunting bison then that just makes your point worse.

African leopards opted to prey on warthogs and impalas 24/7. For this reason they are not very strong and cannot take the same animals as jaguars. Because... why would they risk taking on a 700kg zebra?

700 kg zebra?

[Deleted]

Jan 6, 2023 19:09:49 GMT @ling said:

Jan 6, 2023 19:05:55 GMT Bolushi said:

African leopards opted to prey on warthogs and impalas 24/7. For this reason they are not very strong and cannot take the same animals as jaguars. Because... why would they risk taking on a 700kg zebra?

700 kg zebra?

More like 700lbs I guess... even worse. They never do it.

[Deleted]

Jan 6, 2023 19:13:04 GMT Bolushi said:

Jan 6, 2023 19:09:49 GMT @ling said:

700 kg zebra?

More like 700lbs I guess... even worse. They never do it.

My point still stands. Even if a jaguar rarely preys on cattle and if S. gracilis rarely preyed on bison, I still consider bison as harder prey - thus I favour the smilodon.