Eastern Lowland Gorilla vs African Leopard

[grampa]

The silverback gorilla stands his ground when defending his troop, and will charge towards the leopard; which retreats. If gorillas had any fear of leopards, they wouldn't build their nests on the ground or sometimes in the lower branches. The only real predator of gorillas are people.

This is similar to the brown bears of the RFE. A tiger will kill the occasional adolescent brown bear or (less often) an adult she-bear. But, they strictly avoid adult males.

[Hardcastle]

Aug 21, 2023 7:09:24 GMT grampa said:

The silverback gorilla stands his ground when defending his troop, and will charge towards the leopard; which retreats. If gorillas had any fear of leopards, they wouldn't build their nests on the ground or sometimes in the lower branches. The only real predator of gorillas are people.

This is similar to the brown bears of the RFE. A tiger will kill the occasional adolescent brown bear or (less often) an adult she-bear. But, they strictly avoid adult males.

Agree.

Leopards prey on Gorillas, make no mistake, but silverback gorillas exist specifically to ensure Gorillas are a viable species in leopard country while being targeted for predation. The way silverbacks balance the playing field and give gorillas a leg up over their persecutors (prey always has a leg up) is via the threat of physical violence, which it behooves the leopard to avoid. The leopard sneaks about and picks off the odd vulnerable individual. May be young, sick, lone female at night, whatever, the gorilla troop is fine and stays strong amidst this leopard persecution thanks to the silverback who would absolutely rip the leopards limb from limb if they tried to engage in a fair fight, but the troop loses lesser specimens sparingly out of the bottom end of their population via the leopard carefully evading the silverback and picking off the vulnerable stragglers.

[grampa]

Well said Hardcastle.

[Deleted]

Jul 20, 2023 0:19:23 GMT @ling said:

I want to see a real confrontation between a gorilla and a leopard. Just to see how the silverback is getting slaughtered. Imo, assumptionally, the gorilla isn't actually bad at "fighting", it's just, it won't fight. It'll freak out and panic instead of throwing its fists around.

Absolutely wrong. Its actually the complete opposite, its the leopard that will basically never fight when its discovered:

DOCUMENTARY SHOWS HOW LEOPARDS ARE SCARED SHIT TO ATTACK GORILLAS WHEN THEY ARE DISCOVERED:




IF A LEOPARD OR OTHER THREAT COMES NEAR, THE SILVERBACK SWINGS INTO ACTION. USUALLY THE LEOPARD WILL SLINK AWAY INTO THE FOREST.



books.google.com.ar/books?id=E_SK4gbJgVcC&q=Silverback+gorilla+usually+kills+leopard&dq=Silverback+gorilla+usually+kills+leopard&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y

If attacked the troop retreats, but the old male stands his ground, faces the enemy, and if necessary fights to the death.



DIAN FOSSEY-WORLDS LEADING PRIMATOLOGIST AND CONSERVATIONIST:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dian_Fossey

"ADULT GORILLAS FIGHT FIERCELY TO PROTECT THEIR YOUNG"



books.google.com.ar/books?id=9ZAqufvVrIgC&pg=PA33&dq=Dian+fossey+and+gorillas+fighting&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y


Book: The Gentle Giants, the Gorilla Story.

Author: Geoffrey Howard Bourne, Australian-American anatomist and primatologist:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_H._Bourne

The leopards had apparently intended to sneak up on the gorilla group, grab a young one, and carry it off. When the gorillas were aroused, however, the leopards thought the better of picking a fight with them and ran for cover.



books.google.com.ar/books?id=9FcQAQAAMAAJ&q=When+the%C2%A0gorillas%C2%A0were+aroused+&redir_esc=y

Book: Gorillas among us

Author: Dawn Prince-Hughes, American anthropologist, primatologist, ethologist:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawn_Prince-Hughes

"In the wild, Schaller reported that while keeping vigil next to a dying companion, a single male gorilla defended his ill charge by attacking a threatening leopard, eventually driving it away and thereby prolonging the life of his companion, if only for a day."



books.google.com.ar/books?id=pLD0qnKOL-gC&pg=PA57&dq=In+an+outstanding+example+of+paternal+behavior+#v=onepage&q=In%20an%20outstanding%20example%20of%20paternal%20behavior&f=false

National geographic from Spain:

Silverback gorilla finds fresh leopard tracks which means a leopard is very close, the gorilla is not affected by it. The narrator says young gorillas are at risk, but no leopard wants to face this 200 kg silverback.

[Deleted]

BOOK THE MOUNTAIN GORILLA: ECOLOGY AND BEHAVIOR, BY GEORGE SCHALLER:

archive.org/details/mountaingorillae00scha

Gorilla and leopard battled at night, the leopard being found dead in the morning.

Merfield and miller (1956), on the other hand stated: "gorillas, however, seem to have no fear of leopard...."



Recreation of a native of the account above:



Merfield and miller (1956), on the other hand stated: "gorillas, however, seem to have no fear of leopard...."

But why did they state this?

Here is the actual description of the event:

From George Merfield and Harry Miller:

"Alarmed, it jumped down into the open within a few yards of the gorillas, and then bounded off into the bush. It was astonishing that even then the gorillas were un-perturbed. The old man just glanced at the leopard and went on...."



books.google.com.ar/books?id=HCVJAAAAMAAJ&q=It+was+astonishing+that+even+then+the+gorillas+were+un-+perturbed+.+The+Old+Man+just+glanced+at+the+leopard+a&dq=It+was+astonishing+that+even+then+the+gorillas+were+un-+perturbed+.+The+Old+Man+just+glanced+at+the+leopard+a&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjNqdGdzaD_AhUEppUCHSGABoYQ6AF6BAgCEAM#It%20was%20astonishing%20that%20even%20then%20the%20gorillas%20were%20un-%20perturbed%20.%20The%20Old%20Man%20just%20glanced%20at%20the%20leopard%20a

[Deleted]

BOOK, PRIMATE TO PRIMATE, Educating the Public about Nonhuman Primates and Their Conservation Issues

Kristina Cawthon


THE EFFECT OF LEOPARD PREDATION ON GORILLA POPULATIONS IS NEGLIGIBLE. (SO SMALL OR UNIMPORTANT AS TO BE NOT WORTH CONSIDERING. INSIGNIFICANT)



books.google.com.ar/books?id=RndMAAAAMAAJ&q=Gorilla+displaced+a+leopard+from+kill&dq=Gorilla+displaced+a+leopard+from+kill&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y


The average biomass of the gorillas hunted by leopards in Central Gabon was 78 kg (171 lbs). Obviously subadult and female gorillas:





George Schaller:

"People assume that leopards must kill many young gorillas. This is one of many unverified statements about gorillas which have been repeated so often that they have taken on an aura of truth. Actually there is only one substantiated account of a leopard killing gorillas. And during my year's study none of the many animals which i recognized individually fell prey to a leopard."




books.google.com.ar/books?id=_IMkOFuj7QIC&pg=PA18&dq=mountain+gorilla+kills+leopard&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=mountain%20gorilla%20kills%20leopard&f=false

[Deleted]

Natives insist that a leopard cannot kill a gorilla and this may be true, should the animals meet on even terms.



books.google.com.ar/books?id=6P1_BlT8rXAC&pg=PA31&dq=Natives+insist+that+a%C2%A0leopard%C2%A0cannot+kill+a%C2%A0gorilla%C2%A0and+this+may+be+true#v=onepage&q=Natives%20insist%20that%20a%C2%A0leopard%C2%A0cannot%20kill%20a%C2%A0gorilla%C2%A0and%20this%20may%20be%20true&f=false

[Deleted]

Proceedings of the academy of natural sciences.

The natives say the gorillas kill the leopards by an open-handed blow on the side of the head, and one can quite believe it, having regard to the length of the arm and size of the hand. I remember Mr. Saker once telling me they fought "swinging their arms round like shovels!"





books.google.com.ar/books?id=sqNy3hE-91QC&pg=PA496&dq=The%20natives%20say%20the%20gorillas%20kill%20the%20leopards%20by%20an%20open%20-%20handed%20blow%20on%20the%20side%20of%20the%20head#v=onepage&q=The%20natives%20say%20the%20gorillas%20kill%20the%20leopards%20by%20an%20open%20-%20handed%20blow%20on%20the%20side%20of%20the%20head&f=false

[Deleted]

At Lope, we found evindence of predation by leopards on apes only once. The victim was a juvenile gorilla debilitated by illness.





books.google.com.ar/books?id=2svoCAAAQBAJ&pg=PA194&dq=We%20have%20observed%20only%20one%20interaction%20between%20a%20leopard%20and%20apes%20at%20Lop%C3%A9#v=onepage&q=We%20have%20observed%20only%20one%20interaction%20between%20a%20leopard%20and%20apes%20at%20Lop%C3%A9&f=false

[Deleted]

The leopard eventually disappeared. Perhaps the Belgians were right and he did meet his match in the shape of a strong silverback. But it may also be that the surviving gorillas were too few to justify his efforts and he moved.



books.google.com.ar/books?id=0u9RaBm186QC&q=the+leopard+eventually+disappeared

[Deleted]

Gorillas are vulnerable to predation by leopards (Panthera pardus), though direct documentation of attacks is difficult to obtain and rare. Evidence from leopard scat in areas where gorillas range is often the only means of confirming leopard predation, though even this is questionable as the large cats could simply be scavenging carcasses (Fay et al. 1995).




books.google.com.ar/books?id=RndMAAAAMAAJ&q=Gorillas+are+vulnerable+to+predation+by+leopards+(Panthera+pardus)

[Deleted]

Jul 3, 2023 21:41:40 GMT @ling said:

Jul 3, 2023 20:59:52 GMT grippingwhiteness said:

To be fair, a gorilla that wants to crush a leopard, would definitely do it. Any time. The problem is that you'd be actually hard pressed to find such aggressive silverback gorilla with that mentality though, they are extremely intimidating and that's most of their purpose, but for fighting mentality they are actually light years far from the true aggressive apes that would attack straight up any leopard broad day light or broad night moon light to rip it apart alone or in groups, and you know what ape I'm talking about.

When we talk about fatal encounters though,we have several reports of adult male gorillas, silverbacks included,found dead torn apart to their intestines with clear signs and wounds of leopard predation, including a historical skull of an adult mature male gorilla (therefore a silverback) found with deep punctures in the skull, lower jaw and arm bones (including fractured limba) whose holes perfectly matched leopard canines.

On the other hand, we have one confirmed case of a silverback gorilla killing a leopard but at the same time succumbing to its wounds, and another not confirmed account of a gorilla killing a leopard.

This means that if a leopard can and do kill gorillas of any sex and age, silverbacks included. Probably mostly due to ambush. Surely a gorilla if it wanted to it would kill a leopard,not sure how fast can it do before letting the leopard wounding it enough to make it later collapse to its injuries.

I'm still curious to know how the draw fight happened, because the gorilla did kill the leopard, but the silverback died as well from the injuries the leopard inflicted to it. The size difference was probably 1/3 in favour of the gorilla, yet it wasn't probably able to kill quickly enough the leopard to prevent it doing enough damage to turn it into a draw.

Any speculations?

185lb Panther wipes the floor with a 312lb Gorilla. Even going as far as to rip the ape's arm off in their 2-hour long cage fight:


virginiachronicle.com/?a=d&d=HR19490923.2.13&e=-------en-20--1--txt-txIN--------

I actually love captive accounts, so i will go as far as to say this is the absolute best account favoring leopards. Having said this, a 312 gorilla is either a blackback (sort of a subadult) , or a very small silverback, maybe even malnourished, (even the smallest gorilla subspecies weigh more than this in the wild). Still though, the best account favoring leopards. All accounts in the wild are either ambushes or to sleeping gorillas.

[grampa]

Quote; "I actually love captive accounts."

This is where bisonking and I disagree; although more often we are on the same page. Captive fights have too many variables. How are they kept? Filthy cages? Poor food? Nasty water? The zoos and circuses of the 1800s and early 1900s fed their bears, even polar bears, almost exclusively on vegetation. Meat costs money and the big cats needed meat. Also consider, where there are animal fights, there is money involved. There are so many ways to fix a fight. Another thing; newspapers depended on sensationalism to sell their papers. People love exciting stories. The famous fight, which ended up taking place in Mexico, between Parnell the African lion and Ramadam, the California grizzly was put into print to dozens of newspapers all over the country. Each newspaper printed their own versions with multiple outcomes.

Never consider an old newspaper story as a solid fact. We recently had a good example from a Russian newspaper.

[grippingwhiteness]

This bisonking guys sounds exactly the same as the gorilla fanboy I've permanently on CF, poor guy he's got no idea of the trouble he got himself into. Supercat can wait.

[Deleted]

Aug 25, 2023 10:50:02 GMT grippingwhiteness said:

This bisonking guys sounds exactly the same as the gorilla fanboy I've permanently on CF, poor guy he's got no idea of the trouble he got himself into. Supercat can wait.

That's not me, lmao. I was never on that stupid forum. That poster actually makes gorillas look bad. All he says is "gorilla would beat a lion or a tiger!", without posting anything relevant, on the other hand, as you can see above, i post scientific studies, accounts, expert reports, etc, so its easy to see that's not me. Add that to the fact that i actually favor a lion or tiger over a gorilla more often than not.

Trouble? How scary! Are you one of those that favor a leopard over a silverback? Just so you know, i have seen absolutely ALL accounts favoring leopards and guess what? I have basically debunked it all, so there is ABSOLUTELY nothing you can post that i haven't seen before nor that isn't debunkable. So if you want to waste time, go ahead.