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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2023 14:18:40 GMT
I just decided to make this matchup as it's one of the more popular ones. Maybe some people will think this is an easy win for the gorilla. But I'd like to hear what some of the newer members think.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2023 14:19:17 GMT
Large males.  |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jul 3, 2023 15:20:44 GMT
I don't think it's an easy win. I think it's a really shitty thing for the gorilla to endure, and it will get fucked up, I also think the leopard COULD win. BUT the silverback gorilla exists to fight off leopards, almost exclusively that is its purpose in life. If the silverback didn't present a substantial wall of resistance leopards would gorge on gorillas at will and they'd be totally extinct (and not due to human activity, they'd have been rendered extinct about 2 million years ago). An adult male gorilla is a leopard crushing machine. That is how you can define it as a living organism. That's why it looks like that and why it is that size and everything else about it is that way for that purpose. People really underestimate the significance and implications of being "prey".
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jul 3, 2023 15:30:54 GMT
"Leopard-crushing machine." I like the sound of that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2023 17:50:17 GMT
I don't think it's an easy win. I think it's a really shitty thing for the gorilla to endure, and it will get fucked up, I also think the leopard COULD win. BUT the silverback gorilla exists to fight off leopards, almost exclusively that is its purpose in life. If the silverback didn't present a substantial wall of resistance leopards would gorge on gorillas at will and they'd be totally extinct (and not due to human activity, they'd have been rendered extinct about 2 million years ago). An adult male gorilla is a leopard crushing machine. That is how you can define it as a living organism. That's why it looks like that and why it is that size and everything else about it is that way for that purpose. People really underestimate the significance and implications of being "prey". How would one fare against a jag? |
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Post by grippingwhiteness on Jul 3, 2023 20:59:52 GMT
To be fair, a gorilla that wants to crush a leopard, would definitely do it. Any time. The problem is that you'd be actually hard pressed to find such aggressive silverback gorilla with that mentality though, they are extremely intimidating and that's most of their purpose, but for fighting mentality they are actually light years far from the true aggressive apes that would attack straight up any leopard broad day light or broad night moon light to rip it apart alone or in groups, and you know what ape I'm talking about.
When we talk about fatal encounters though,we have several reports of adult male gorillas, silverbacks included,found dead torn apart to their intestines with clear signs and wounds of leopard predation, including a historical skull of an adult mature male gorilla (therefore a silverback) found with deep punctures in the skull, lower jaw and arm bones (including fractured limba) whose holes perfectly matched leopard canines.
On the other hand, we have one confirmed case of a silverback gorilla killing a leopard but at the same time succumbing to its wounds, and another not confirmed account of a gorilla killing a leopard.
This means that if a leopard can and do kill gorillas of any sex and age, silverbacks included. Probably mostly due to ambush. Surely a gorilla if it wanted to it would kill a leopard,not sure how fast can it do before letting the leopard wounding it enough to make it later collapse to its injuries.
I'm still curious to know how the draw fight happened, because the gorilla did kill the leopard, but the silverback died as well from the injuries the leopard inflicted to it. The size difference was probably 1/3 in favour of the gorilla, yet it wasn't probably able to kill quickly enough the leopard to prevent it doing enough damage to turn it into a draw.
Any speculations?
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Post by grippingwhiteness on Jul 3, 2023 21:04:16 GMT
Large males. Very good model, you used Shepherd tree male which was one of the most massive male leopards out there in Kenya a while back, Kenya is also a good area where to find huge males, especially in kenyan Aberdares where they reach outlier enormous sizes (like that 204 lb male with a 276 mm skull and another even larger male with an alleged 285 mm skull and estimated at around 220 lbs in weight). I definitely think that this leopard can kill a silverback, by ambush especially or of it's able to get on the gorilla without the ape being able to land a blow to it. I mean, leopards that coexist with gorillas generally aren't even that large, with the exception of some Gabonese and Congolese massive males. If those medium sized leopards can do it I don't see why an even larger Kenyan maxing out at 200-220+ lbs couldn't do it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2023 21:41:40 GMT
To be fair, a gorilla that wants to crush a leopard, would definitely do it. Any time. The problem is that you'd be actually hard pressed to find such aggressive silverback gorilla with that mentality though, they are extremely intimidating and that's most of their purpose, but for fighting mentality they are actually light years far from the true aggressive apes that would attack straight up any leopard broad day light or broad night moon light to rip it apart alone or in groups, and you know what ape I'm talking about. When we talk about fatal encounters though,we have several reports of adult male gorillas, silverbacks included,found dead torn apart to their intestines with clear signs and wounds of leopard predation, including a historical skull of an adult mature male gorilla (therefore a silverback) found with deep punctures in the skull, lower jaw and arm bones (including fractured limba) whose holes perfectly matched leopard canines. On the other hand, we have one confirmed case of a silverback gorilla killing a leopard but at the same time succumbing to its wounds, and another not confirmed account of a gorilla killing a leopard. This means that if a leopard can and do kill gorillas of any sex and age, silverbacks included. Probably mostly due to ambush. Surely a gorilla if it wanted to it would kill a leopard,not sure how fast can it do before letting the leopard wounding it enough to make it later collapse to its injuries. I'm still curious to know how the draw fight happened, because the gorilla did kill the leopard, but the silverback died as well from the injuries the leopard inflicted to it. The size difference was probably 1/3 in favour of the gorilla, yet it wasn't probably able to kill quickly enough the leopard to prevent it doing enough damage to turn it into a draw. Any speculations? 185lb Panther wipes the floor with a 312lb Gorilla. Even going as far as to rip the ape's arm off in their 2-hour long cage fight: virginiachronicle.com/?a=d&d=HR19490923.2.13&e=-------en-20--1--txt-txIN-------- |
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Post by grippingwhiteness on Jul 3, 2023 21:59:36 GMT
To be fair, a gorilla that wants to crush a leopard, would definitely do it. Any time. The problem is that you'd be actually hard pressed to find such aggressive silverback gorilla with that mentality though, they are extremely intimidating and that's most of their purpose, but for fighting mentality they are actually light years far from the true aggressive apes that would attack straight up any leopard broad day light or broad night moon light to rip it apart alone or in groups, and you know what ape I'm talking about. When we talk about fatal encounters though,we have several reports of adult male gorillas, silverbacks included,found dead torn apart to their intestines with clear signs and wounds of leopard predation, including a historical skull of an adult mature male gorilla (therefore a silverback) found with deep punctures in the skull, lower jaw and arm bones (including fractured limba) whose holes perfectly matched leopard canines. On the other hand, we have one confirmed case of a silverback gorilla killing a leopard but at the same time succumbing to its wounds, and another not confirmed account of a gorilla killing a leopard. This means that if a leopard can and do kill gorillas of any sex and age, silverbacks included. Probably mostly due to ambush. Surely a gorilla if it wanted to it would kill a leopard,not sure how fast can it do before letting the leopard wounding it enough to make it later collapse to its injuries. I'm still curious to know how the draw fight happened, because the gorilla did kill the leopard, but the silverback died as well from the injuries the leopard inflicted to it. The size difference was probably 1/3 in favour of the gorilla, yet it wasn't probably able to kill quickly enough the leopard to prevent it doing enough damage to turn it into a draw. Any speculations? 185lb Panther wipes the floor with a 312lb Gorilla. Even going as far as to rip the ape's arm off in their 2-hour long cage fight: virginiachronicle.com/?a=d&d=HR19490923.2.13&e=-------en-20--1--txt-txIN--------I hate that account to be fair, a leopard doesn't need 2 hours to kill a gorilla if it's actually successful in landing it's killing strike. This only means this was a FORCED cage fight where the animals where put in limited space and they tried avoiding each other most of the time, but every time they got too close the leopard apparently got very defensive and attacked several times with "warning attacks" the scared Gorilla that wasn't interested in fighting. Eventually the accumulation of wounds probably is what killed the gorilla, or perhaps in the end the leopard couldn't really avoid the stress and therefore it mercifully attacked and finished the already injured gorilla. It disgusts me how abusive and cruel that was, done by barbarians for the seek of entertaining... |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2023 22:08:47 GMT
I hate that account to be fair, a leopard doesn't need 2 hours to kill a gorilla if it's actually successful in landing it's killing strike. This only means this was a FORCED cage fight where the animals where put in limited space and they tried avoiding each other most of the time, but every time they got too close the leopard apparently got very defensive and attacked several times with "warning attacks" the scared Gorilla that wasn't interested in fighting. Eventually the accumulation of wounds probably is what killed the gorilla, or perhaps in the end the leopard couldn't really avoid the stress and therefore it mercifully attacked and finished the already injured gorilla. It disgusts me how abusive and cruel that was, done by barbarians for the seek of entertaining... True. But I think it vividly show unaggressive gorillas really are. They hate fighting. Hate it. Especially when confronted by other predators instead of their own species, namely (and somewhat limited to) leopards. Now, it's not that leopards love fighting (why would they?), but they clearly don't get as frightened/worried when scrapping with other predators as gorillas do. I feel like when gorilla troops encounter leopards the gorillas just go bananas and start scattering in all directions, even the head-male will try to avoid the cat at almost all costs, only in the most desperate of situations will he not back down from the leopard's hostile persistence. |
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Post by grippingwhiteness on Jul 3, 2023 22:28:10 GMT
I hate that account to be fair, a leopard doesn't need 2 hours to kill a gorilla if it's actually successful in landing it's killing strike. This only means this was a FORCED cage fight where the animals where put in limited space and they tried avoiding each other most of the time, but every time they got too close the leopard apparently got very defensive and attacked several times with "warning attacks" the scared Gorilla that wasn't interested in fighting. Eventually the accumulation of wounds probably is what killed the gorilla, or perhaps in the end the leopard couldn't really avoid the stress and therefore it mercifully attacked and finished the already injured gorilla. It disgusts me how abusive and cruel that was, done by barbarians for the seek of entertaining... True. But I think it vividly show unaggressive gorillas really are. They hate fighting. Hate it. Especially when confronted by other predators instead of their own species, namely (and somewhat limited to) leopards. Now, it's not that leopards love fighting (why would they?), but they clearly don't get as frightened/worried when scrapping with other predators as gorillas do. I feel like when gorilla troops encounter leopards the gorillas just go bananas and start scattering in all directions, even the head-male will try to avoid the cat at almost all costs, only in the most desperate of situations will he not back down from the leopard's hostile persistence. Zergthe which is a very reasonable primate enthusiast (and also a friend) has told me a lot about his opinion on gorillas, funny is how 90% of it was him getting mad at them for eventually lacking the actual aggressive behaviour that would make a male fight to the end ferociously as a threat comes close. Namely leopards, chimpanzees, poachers with dogs... it's very rare to actually find a gorilla that aggressive, it seems that gorillas are very self-preservationists, sometimes even more than cats to a bigger amount and it's weird because I'm not getting how that is possible. Leopards do not love fighting, a few wild animals actually love that, namely mustelids to be fair, but when scared or put at no choice other but defense they completely change and can turn out to be very very aggressive, more aggressive than cougars for sure, not sure about jaguars. Probably on tier with lions and tigers at levels of aggressiveness. For instance there's a video of a leopard coming out of a den and mercifully attacking a hunter that already had SHOT it more than once, and another one where a hunter shoots loudly at a leopard, missing it. The leopard instead of running away at hearing the loud gunshots noises instead charges growling angrily straight at the hunter and mauls its badly before getting one shotted by a good gun. Funnily enough, I've recently even come across a video where a leopard chased by lions gets ran over ferociously by a large male lion that seems to have got a very good solid bite on the leopard's chest, but the leopard is able to twitch its head and eventually chewes the lion's face enough for it to release and become somewhat uninterested. The fun part comes straight after, as the lion steps back as its self-preservation istincts kick in after finding out that getting your face punctured by leopard canines isn't good, the leopard straight up charges and leaps at the lion's face again, before fleeing. Here's the video www.instagram.com/reel/CuLV6_voBjz/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==Leopards never fail to amaze me, they are self-preservation cats but when confronted with real danger without a way out they turn out into crazy mentally ill mfers that would even attack back a lion that could rip it apart if it really wanted to. Fascinating aren't they? Their mentality is to be fair the standard I hold all cats to. Now, if a gorilla had this mentality, it would kill the leopard any time. There's actually a gorilla that showed up this mentality. His name was Digit. He fought a couple poachers and their dozen of dogs or so while his family ran to safety. He took like 5 spear wounds and killed one of the dogs before going down He's also the standard I hold all gorillas too. |
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Post by Bolushi on Jul 3, 2023 22:33:04 GMT
Capturing a gorilla and throwing it in a cage with a leopard is like taking one of those miserable tortured orcas at seaworld and putting it up against a Great White Shark. The shark is a primitive animal with a tiny brain with zero critical thinking skills, and the cage while not ideal isn't a big factor for it. The shark will simply bite the traumatized orca, who's intelligent brain is horribly affected by the conditions and is not able to fight properly as it would in the wild. A leopard is closer to the shark than it is to the orca, vice versa for the gorilla.
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Post by grippingwhiteness on Jul 3, 2023 22:51:22 GMT
Capturing a gorilla and throwing it in a cage with a leopard is like taking one of those miserable tortured orcas at seaworld and putting it up against a Great White Shark. The shark is a primitive animal with a tiny brain with zero critical thinking skills, and the cage while not ideal isn't a big factor for it. The shark will simply bite the traumatized orca, who's intelligent brain is horribly affected by the conditions and is not able to fight properly as it would in the wild. A leopard is closer to the shark than it is to the orca, vice versa for the gorilla. I'm not convinced an orca will end up like that. Tilikum showed us otherwise. Tilikum passed years of abuse and cruelty towards Tilikum, including the act of allowing the other whales to "rake" Tilikum's skin with their teeth until he bled, not to mention SeaWorld masturbated Tilikum over and over and forcibly impregnated female orcas with his sperm. The result? Tilikum got in rage mode and killed 3 of his trainers. I think that a stressed orca if faced with actual animals it preys in the wild will probably kill it if needed. |
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Post by Bolushi on Jul 3, 2023 23:20:23 GMT
Capturing a gorilla and throwing it in a cage with a leopard is like taking one of those miserable tortured orcas at seaworld and putting it up against a Great White Shark. The shark is a primitive animal with a tiny brain with zero critical thinking skills, and the cage while not ideal isn't a big factor for it. The shark will simply bite the traumatized orca, who's intelligent brain is horribly affected by the conditions and is not able to fight properly as it would in the wild. A leopard is closer to the shark than it is to the orca, vice versa for the gorilla. I'm not convinced an orca will end up like that. Tilikum showed us otherwise. Tilikum passed years of abuse and cruelty towards Tilikum, including the act of allowing the other whales to "rake" Tilikum's skin with their teeth until he bled, not to mention SeaWorld masturbated Tilikum over and over and forcibly impregnated female orcas with his sperm. The result? Tilikum got in rage mode and killed 3 of his trainers. I think that a stressed orca if faced with actual animals it preys in the wild will probably kill it if needed. Not all of them I suppose, but the ones taken from their families whom try to commit suicide and have collapsed dorsal fins as they swim in circles etc. etc. If shit were to hit the fan and Tikikum was dealing with a dangerous threatening animal, do you think Tilikum would perform very well? They're just humans. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jul 4, 2023 4:10:44 GMT
To be fair, a gorilla that wants to crush a leopard, would definitely do it. Any time. The problem is that you'd be actually hard pressed to find such aggressive silverback gorilla with that mentality though, they are extremely intimidating and that's most of their purpose, but for fighting mentality they are actually light years far from the true aggressive apes that would attack straight up any leopard broad day light or broad night moon light to rip it apart alone or in groups, and you know what ape I'm talking about. When we talk about fatal encounters though,we have several reports of adult male gorillas, silverbacks included,found dead torn apart to their intestines with clear signs and wounds of leopard predation, including a historical skull of an adult mature male gorilla (therefore a silverback) found with deep punctures in the skull, lower jaw and arm bones (including fractured limba) whose holes perfectly matched leopard canines. On the other hand, we have one confirmed case of a silverback gorilla killing a leopard but at the same time succumbing to its wounds, and another not confirmed account of a gorilla killing a leopard. This means that if a leopard can and do kill gorillas of any sex and age, silverbacks included. Probably mostly due to ambush. Surely a gorilla if it wanted to it would kill a leopard,not sure how fast can it do before letting the leopard wounding it enough to make it later collapse to its injuries. I'm still curious to know how the draw fight happened, because the gorilla did kill the leopard, but the silverback died as well from the injuries the leopard inflicted to it. The size difference was probably 1/3 in favour of the gorilla, yet it wasn't probably able to kill quickly enough the leopard to prevent it doing enough damage to turn it into a draw. Any speculations? 185lb Panther wipes the floor with a 312lb Gorilla. Even going as far as to rip the ape's arm off in their 2-hour long cage fight: virginiachronicle.com/?a=d&d=HR19490923.2.13&e=-------en-20--1--txt-txIN--------I think it's one of the more absurdly dubious accounts anyway, but ignoring that and giving it the benefit of the doubt- there's no "2 hour long cage fight" if the leopard is winning. A leopard winning finishes it's fight in seconds. They are efficient masterful killers. A fight lasting 2 hours between a gorilla and a leopard, means the gorilla was winning for 2 hours, otherwise the leopard would have killed it. As soon as the gorilla was subordinate and subdued and the leopard had ascendancy, the gorilla would be dead in under 1 minute. Apparently the leopard in this scenario couldn't achieve that in 2 hours (probably never achieved that, the gorilla likely died from an accumulation of injuries that the leopard dished out to it defensively). The gorilla is not a killer, that is what all this discussion about "aggression" or whatever boils down to. It normally, in a natural setting wouldn't need to be. So that is why evolution did not bless it with killing efficiency. It just has to fight off leopards, and it turns out leopards give up easily and run away without needing to be killed. So yeah, gorillas suck at killing things. If that fight happened in the wild, it's not going for 2 hours, is it? The leopard is leaving at the 1 minute mark, after it's attack fails to kill the gorilla. Stuck in a cage together... and they have to keep going at it, over and over again, the gorilla continuously thwarting and fighting the leopard off. The leopard retreating to its corner and snarling and regrouping. Eventually it seems the gorilla succumbed to it's injuries, and it never was able to kill the leopard. Or even really tried to, doesn't understand trying to. Have you ever seen chimps or baboons hunt? They don't kill things, they catch them, and then they casually eat them alive, even their eating bites aren't in vital areas, so it is very hard to watch as they hold an antelope fawn and take bites out of it's hips and shoulders like it's an apple while it screams. They don't know about killing. BUT, the fact remains, in real life a gorilla will beat up a leopard and send it on it's way vast vast vast majority of natural interactions. EVEN ambush attempts from the leopard will normally fail. |
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