Dogal Barbucho (2) vs Mexican Jaguar

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Height: 24-32''
Weight: 75-125lbs
Country of Origin: Argentina
Family: Gripping Dog
Type: Boarhound
The Dogal Barbucho is used to hunt puma, boar, guanaco, red deer, even miscellaneous animals such as tegus. Dogals was created by Argentinian hunters to be running catch dogs. The Dogo Argentino became too large to be an effective running catch dog, so the solution for hunters was crossing the Dogo Argentino with the Galgo Espanol and Galgo Patagonico.
There are 2 main varieties of Dogals. This is because both the Galgo Espanol and Galgo Patagonico can be used to create Dogals, but the Galgo Espanol is much smaller and lighter than the Galgo Patagonico which creates a smaller, sleeker dog.

The Jaguar (Panthera onca) is a near threatened and declining big cat that lives in South, Central and North America. They are America's only big cat.
Males are 110-220lbs with an average of 180lbs with many getting larger, especially individuals in the Pantanal region. Females are 100-180lbs with an average of 140lbs. Jaguars are smallest in Mexico, though most are around the 140-150 area with females 120-130.
Jaguars are 26-32'' tall and 4-6ft long.
Jaguars are inquisitive, intelligent felines capable of problem solving the mechanics of tricky animals. They are no stranger to water either, and commonly swim and prey on caimans in the water. They generally kill by crushing the skull, and their exceptionally powerful forelimbs allows them to predate upon animals far bigger than themselves. Both male and female jaguars are powerful and calm, in sharp contrast to female leopards and cougars. They are elusive to humans and are rarely seen, they generally avoid people with few recorded attacks. Despite this, they have been extensively persecuted through history which decreased their population. Today, habitat loss and loss of major breeding grounds and water sources are lead factors in their population decreasing. They are sprinkling into the USA, jaguars like El Jefe show promising signs of a jaguar comeback in the USA.
Their prey is extensive, however caiman, capybara, cattle, deer, turtle and boar are all common prey items.

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I may have to give the edge to 2 120lb cougar hunting dogs. However I don't know and I'd definitely favor a 150lb jaguar to take both. I might have the weights wrong in my profile...

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Musth
What do you think?

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@ajay

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Could go either way depending on the weights of the jaguar and dogs. The strong forelimbs of the jaguar definitely makes it more suited for taking dogs than the other felids including the leopard, although I feel it's not lightyears difference or anything.

Jaguars can also have that really stoic stubborn eye-of-the-tiger attitude which would again help them against these dogs that by-pass sparring and sprint straight in and grab their opponent.

And probably jaguars don't get as gracile at lower weights like leopards where a 130 lb jaguar might be as or more proportionally robust as a 180 lb leopard tom. What do you think about that? They're definitely way less sexually dimorphic, quite minimal sexual dimorphism for a cat.

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Yeah I give a bit more than an edge to the 2x 120 lb cougar-hunting running catchdog. I think not a chance, running dogs are still really legit predators with game and confidence way beyond wild animals. Probably moderately less p4p strong and robust compared to the jaguar, which is a concern. But there's two of them. And after all the jaguar is still a cat and I don't think massively better than a leopard or anything. Just somewhat, very modestly better. So the jaguar needs to be able to submit one dog easily, which I don't think it can with that weight difference, the jaguar isn't THAT much better than other cats.

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At parity like one of those dogals vs jaguar I think that's a toss up and that parity dogo beats a jaguar. The dogo has to bring it and it's not easy, but it's got a decisive advantage, what can the jaguar do, it hasn't got a big enough weight advantage to ground the dogo so now it's lost. After all the dogo isn't less strong than the jaguar, right? And the jaguar's style is still that of a cat, not as suited to face-to-face as much as the dogo. A catchdog is an unnatural SPECIALIST in face to face, no compromise on other attributes except for a bit of running in the case of the running catchdog.

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A full gamebred bulldog if you could get parity there would fuck a jaguar up categorically. I just don't see the jaguar being THAT much better than other big cats, it's still a fucking cat. Big cats may be my fave animals but I'm realistic that bulldogs are manmade combat artists without compromise designed to fuck shit up, it's an unnatural level of capability for what they've been selected for, which is face-to-face combat. In the case of the best-trained best-selected gamebred lines they're categorically superior to any ambush specialist in a face-to-face. The parity jaguar might have a chance in an ambush, but not face-to-face, just no chance whatsoever. After the parity jaguar can't ground the dog it'd be searching for escape.

Once you get below running catchdog then I'd entertain parity jaguar beating it. But anything that's specifically designed to sprint in and grab large game without question is going to beat any ambush predator at parity.

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Feb 7, 2023 7:50:37 GMT @ajay said:

A full gamebred bulldog if you could get parity there would fuck a jaguar up categorically. I just don't see the jaguar being THAT much better than other big cats, it's still a fucking cat.

Caporal's son would disagree. Died in an epic fight with a jaguar. They sing a much different tune from leopards. Jaguars are on record crushing cougar skulls.

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Feb 7, 2023 7:46:15 GMT @ajay said:

At parity like one of those dogals vs jaguar I think that's a toss up and that parity dogo beats a jaguar. The dogo has to bring it and it's not easy, but it's got a decisive advantage, what can the jaguar do, it hasn't got a big enough weight advantage to ground the dogo so now it's lost. After all the dogo isn't less strong than the jaguar, right? And the jaguar's style is still that of a cat, not as suited to face-to-face as much as the dogo. A catchdog is an unnatural SPECIALIST in face to face, no compromise on other attributes except for a bit of running in the case of the running catchdog.

I could see the dog winning if it has a lot of cougar experience against a 110lb jaguar, maybe, but that's going to test the limits of the dog.
Only dog I'll place my money on against parity jaguar most of the time is a Tosa. Jaguar rakings won't do shit and if it gained control the Tosa's head is caked in skin anyway.

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Feb 7, 2023 7:25:24 GMT @ajay said:

Could go either way depending on the weights of the jaguar and dogs. The strong forelimbs of the jaguar definitely makes it more suited for taking dogs than the other felids including the leopard, although I feel it's not lightyears difference or anything.

Jaguars can also have that really stoic stubborn eye-of-the-tiger attitude which would again help them against these dogs that by-pass sparring and sprint straight in and grab their opponent.

And probably jaguars don't get as gracile at lower weights like leopards where a 130 lb jaguar might be as or more proportionally robust as a 180 lb leopard tom. What do you think about that? They're definitely way less sexually dimorphic, quite minimal sexual dimorphism for a cat.

Jaguars suffer about no sexual dimorphism it seems, and as they get lower in weights the difference is extremely slight with a lot of overlap. Evidently Pantanal jaguars are slightly more proportionally robust than Mexican jaguars.

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Feb 7, 2023 7:52:50 GMT Bolushi said:

Feb 7, 2023 7:50:37 GMT @ajay said:

A full gamebred bulldog if you could get parity there would fuck a jaguar up categorically. I just don't see the jaguar being THAT much better than other big cats, it's still a fucking cat.

Caporal's son would disagree. Died in an epic fight with a jaguar. They sing a much different tune from leopards. Jaguars are on record crushing cougar skulls.

What was the weights of Caporal's son and the jaguar?

[Hardcastle]

Feb 7, 2023 8:03:33 GMT @ajay said:

Feb 7, 2023 7:52:50 GMT Bolushi said:

Caporal's son would disagree. Died in an epic fight with a jaguar. They sing a much different tune from leopards. Jaguars are on record crushing cougar skulls.

What was the weights of Caporal's son and the jaguar?

Unknown. Caporal himself was considered a monumentally huge bulldog at 108 lbs, 24.5 inches tall. A freak for a baiting/fighting bulldog at the time (most weighed in the 25-60 lbs weight range). So much so they measured his cranium and ribcage and everything to marvel over the numbers. It's unlikely the son was as large.

The jaguar's size is also unknown. It was just a jaguar someone had in San Francisco around 1904 or something.

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Yeah even at 108 lbs it's fairly likely the jaguar was still quite a bit heavier than Caporal's son. Most jaguars are way north of 108 lbs.

So I'm not saying the parity jaguar is at all shit compared to good running catchdog, but that the strongest large face-to-face ambush predator (ie jaguar) is just one tiny rung down from good running catchdog. I don't think that's actually extreme or unrealistic. And being only one level removed it does imply that 60% of parity jaguars would beat 40% of running catchdogs, like it's not far off even MOTN.

My p4p tier list would be:

1. (Gamebred) Bulldog
2. Drop-in catchdog
3. Running catchdog
4. Best face-to-face ambush specialist (ie jaguar)

Which also implies that the best face-to-face ambush specialist beats every manmade dog type on the planet besides what, 3? And that three are complete manmade specialists without compromise to anything whatsoever but combat? I don't think that's unrealistic.

I think the parity leopard kind of comes back a bit to the jaguar against dogs when accounting for the leopard's greater flexibility, which I'd assume assists it with the dexterous aspect of grappling a dog. Not to say the parity leopard comes all the way back, just that there's not a massive difference, well assuming the robusticity of large leopard toms and not small gracile leopards.

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P4P tier-list for canis lupus familiaris and ambush predator:

1. (Gamebred) straight bulldog

2. Drop-in catchdog/boarhound

3. Running catchdog/boarhound

4. Best face-to-face large-game ambush predator (ie jaguar)

5. Best hunting terriers and good face-to-face large-game ambush predators ie leopard/lion/tiger/clouded leopard/snow leopard

6. Cougar

7. Best sighthounds and best medium-to-large game ambush predators

Maybe winging it a bit below jaguar but yeah giving it the good old college try.