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Post by Hardcastle on Feb 7, 2023 11:29:57 GMT
I have a hot take on the whole caporal and relatives saga, just super exhausted so will post tomorrow.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2023 11:57:26 GMT
I have a hot take on the whole caporal and relatives saga, just super exhausted so will post tomorrow. Beauty, looking forward to it. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2023 19:32:51 GMT
I think the best sighthounds beat cougars. Maritsane, Galgo Patagonico, Irish Wolfhound, even just a plain Boergreyhound.
I also would put Airedale Terriers in #4
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2023 21:10:49 GMT
I think the best sighthounds beat cougars. Maritsane, Galgo Patagonico, Irish Wolfhound, even just a plain Boergreyhound. I also would put Airedale Terriers in #4 Ok cool so what about now? 1. Bulldog 2. Drop-in catchdog/boarhound 3. Running catchdog/boarhound 4. Best terriers and best face-to-face ambush predator (ie jaguar) 5. Good large-game ambush predators (ie lion, tiger, leopard, clouded leopard, snow leopard) 6. Best sighthounds 7. Cougar |
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Post by CoolJohnson on Feb 7, 2023 22:03:30 GMT
I think the best sighthounds beat cougars. Maritsane, Galgo Patagonico, Irish Wolfhound, even just a plain Boergreyhound. I also would put Airedale Terriers in #4 Ok cool so what about now? 1.Good large-game ambush predators (ie Jaguar, lion, tiger, leopard, clouded leopard, snow leopard) 2. Bulldog 3. Drop-in catchdog/boarhound 4. Running catchdog/boarhound 5. Best sighthounds Fixed it for you. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2023 22:51:19 GMT
Ok cool so what about now? 1.Good large-game ambush predators (ie Jaguar, lion, tiger, leopard, clouded leopard, snow leopard) 2. Bulldog 3. Drop-in catchdog/boarhound 4. Running catchdog/boarhound 5. Best sighthounds That was a step in the wrong direction. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2023 22:55:32 GMT
What's happened there ^^^ I type something and I'm quoted as Johnson & Johnson and his post is quoted as Ajay.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2023 23:22:20 GMT
I think the best sighthounds beat cougars. Maritsane, Galgo Patagonico, Irish Wolfhound, even just a plain Boergreyhound. I also would put Airedale Terriers in #4 Ok cool so what about now? 1. Bulldog 2. Drop-in catchdog/boarhound 3. Running catchdog/boarhound 4. Best terriers and best face-to-face ambush predator (ie jaguar) 5. Good large-game ambush predators (ie lion, tiger, leopard, clouded leopard, snow leopard) 6. Best sighthounds 7. Cougar Airedale Terriers are weird, some hybrid between scenthound, cur and terrier but by versatility all cur with the assertiveness of a gripping dog for mediocre game. Cougars should fall under that spectrum at parity and not warrant much caution. I follow David Hancock's opinions on Airedale Terrier classification - www.davidhancockondogs-serials.com/1173Including tigers and lions is odd as I don't know how they'd scale against dogs. Probably around jaguar level. I'd say despite being bulldogs, bull terriers deserve a higher ranking than bulldogs. So I'd do... 1. Bull & Terrier 2. Jaguar, I would never bet against it. You can hunt with gripping dogs in Sri Lankan leopard country but not jaguar country, and jaguars have beaten 4 pitbulls at once along with a champion fighting bulldog. So yeah... a chainweight 80lb APBT and a small 80lb jaguaress and sure. Bet on the dog if it's a hard mouth. 3. Bulldog/Lead-in catch dog, I think these 2 groups are basically the same whether they're a bulldog or boarhound. For example a 120lb Dogo would be a lead in catch dog, no different than an Alano Espanol. 4. Running catch dog, all running catch dogs are boarhounds but not all boarhounds are running catch dogs. Best terriers are also in this class, they're no worse than bull & terriers besides the compromise on durability and loose skin. 5. ''Wolfhound'' type sighthounds like Galgo Patagonicos, Maritsanes and Irish Wolfhounds. Along with Boergreyhounds, bonus points for the Airedale strain. 6. Leopards and snow leopards. 7. Cougars. Airedale Terriers are below 5 but above 6... |
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Post by Hardcastle on Feb 8, 2023 0:20:26 GMT
I would say Airedales are fundamentally like curs, but with a stronger kill instinct than curs will typically have. We have curs ranging from "soft/cautious" to "rough/catchy", but airedales are more "rough/kill-y".
Exactly what curs are comprised of seems to be pretty random at the best of times, so it sort of makes sense it gets tricky to classify them. North american curs seem to have a scenthound foundation and then outcrossings to bull, gun dog, herder, maybe sighthound as well...
Ridgebacks, also a cur, seem to have a boarhound foundation (basically great dane) but then mixed with native pariah dogs and to my eye some gun dog as well.
Realistically the hunting and herding spitz are curs in their behaviours, even if they're actually crossed with nothing. The crossing to make curs is kind of "reinventing the wheel" that is a spitz.
Australian heelers are also curs, IMO. Strongly herding dog based, but outcrossed to pariah (dingo) and bullbreed.
For all of the above it's about versatility. Having a full suite of characteristics. Scenting and tracking instincts, chasing and herding instincts, harassing, catching and/or killing instincts, all balanced in a "jack of all trades". This can be achieved in many different ways, and no two curs will have the same balance of attributes. Airedales are somewhat uniquely kill-heavy, being so high percentage terrier. Perhaps the mountain and treeing feists SHOULD be similar, since they too are scenthound x terrier, BUT they are smaller, AND they are a cross between coonhound and terrier. Airedales ofcourse are otterhound x terrier. The reality is otterhounds are pretty kill heavy scenthounds to begin with, and specifically killing a fairly gnarly and nasty quarry - otters. So with the airedale we are left with a pretty heightened killer instinct indeed, but still a certain foundation of balance and versatility and intelligence and etc. Terriers were never JUST kill, btw, they are smart/shrewd, good nose, etc, they are somewhat balanced miniature killer curs in their own right.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2023 0:24:49 GMT
I think Airedale and Ridgeback are essentially the same animal with the Airedale having deadlier teeth and being smaller. Odd how Airedales haven't caught on in Australia, guess people think they're too goofy?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2023 2:18:18 GMT
Ok cool so what about now? 1. Bulldog 2. Drop-in catchdog/boarhound 3. Running catchdog/boarhound 4. Best terriers and best face-to-face ambush predator (ie jaguar) 5. Good large-game ambush predators (ie lion, tiger, leopard, clouded leopard, snow leopard) 6. Best sighthounds 7. Cougar Airedale Terriers are weird, some hybrid between scenthound, cur and terrier but by versatility all cur with the assertiveness of a gripping dog for mediocre game. Cougars should fall under that spectrum at parity and not warrant much caution. I follow David Hancock's opinions on Airedale Terrier classification - www.davidhancockondogs-serials.com/1173Including tigers and lions is odd as I don't know how they'd scale against dogs. Probably around jaguar level. I'd say despite being bulldogs, bull terriers deserve a higher ranking than bulldogs. So I'd do... 1. Bull & Terrier 2. Jaguar, I would never bet against it. You can hunt with gripping dogs in Sri Lankan leopard country but not jaguar country, and jaguars have beaten 4 pitbulls at once along with a champion fighting bulldog. So yeah... a chainweight 80lb APBT and a small 80lb jaguaress and sure. Bet on the dog if it's a hard mouth. 3. Bulldog/Lead-in catch dog, I think these 2 groups are basically the same whether they're a bulldog or boarhound. For example a 120lb Dogo would be a lead in catch dog, no different than an Alano Espanol. 4. Running catch dog, all running catch dogs are boarhounds but not all boarhounds are running catch dogs. Best terriers are also in this class, they're no worse than bull & terriers besides the compromise on durability and loose skin. 5. ''Wolfhound'' type sighthounds like Galgo Patagonicos, Maritsanes and Irish Wolfhounds. Along with Boergreyhounds, bonus points for the Airedale strain. 6. Leopards and snow leopards. 7. Cougars. Airedale Terriers are below 5 but above 6... Jaguarfan. lol. Hardcastle too. Just doesn't make theoretical sense that any ambush specialist beats a combat specialist in the case of lead-in catchdog. What is the catchdog (selected only for combat) compromising on to be beaten by an ambush specialist, which nature says has to have significant compromise on face-to-face combat if it's going to be an ambush specialist? I don't know how the jaguar or anything in nature can have the cake and eat it too. At least with the running catchdog I case might be made for compromising some combat to be able to run. But lead-in catchdog? I appreciate the postings on Airedales and stuff though, that was cool. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Feb 8, 2023 3:08:36 GMT
The thing I wanted to say about Caporal and his relatives, is just an observation when you step back and look at the whole series of events. It starts with Caporal himself, being basically a freakish "Brock Lesnar" of bulldogs that just rises out of the baiting/fighting bulldog pool. He wasn't just large. Breeding big is no issue, as boerboel breeders demonstrate, caporal easily could have been bred twice as large, but in those days the work came first, and then after the dog is proven as a legit worker only then do you start admiring size or anything else of that trivial nature. Being 108 lbs and STILL fully functional as an elite bulldog? Proportionately all bulldog, able to do everything a bulldog can do, same power to weight ratio, merely scaled up? That's unusual, and that's what caporal was. Caporal went his whole life undefeated, and they threw EVERYTHING at him; Bulls, dogs, wolves, striped hyenas, bears, donkeys, horses... everything they had access to. He never lost a fight. And with that his legend was established. Now, full disclaimer, these weren't "fights to the death", they were just... fights. Like real life. They'd fight until everyone around was like "yeah I think that'll do", and that was when one combatant was no longer competing and defending itself, just being tortured and moaning pitifully. There is a common trope in literature from that time of the cruel heartless owner not throwing in the towel even though his animal was done for, and the crowd begs him to have mercy. That probably happened sometimes, but generally the owner of the losing animal would of course be willing to concede and prevent further damage. Even if they were "heartless", there's probably more money to be made sparing their expensive bear or fighting donkey or whatever from unnecessary injury or death, healing it and pitting it against other animals at a later date (even if there's no injury, having too bad of an experience might make an animal an unwilling competitor in future fights, it's spirit could be broken, so to speak). I'll admit, even I would be like "really? It beat frigging bears? C'mon" if it was fights to the death, that's silly, but if you understand it just grabbed a bear by the face and used footwork to manuveur out of range of it's retaliations and make them less effective until the bear gave up, exhausted and in pain, and it's owner got sick of watching it suffer ... it's really quite believable. Word spread around, and people wanted dogs sired by caporal. This is why we hear about a gentlemen in England importing a son of Caporal (Named "Matador Du Midi") and having it "jump at" (spar with) a bear, before having a fight with a more serious bear- Also Megere- And of course, Hercules, It seems to me like FINALLY, SOMETHING, beat one of these bulldogs. They were literally travelling the globe looking for a worthwhile opponent. Obviously money would have been the motivation, and the legend of Caporal made it all the more profitable. People in the scene at that time knew about these incredible bulldogs that can't be beat, regular people meanwhile would have been like "no way could a dog beat a jaguar, that's preposterous, I'll throw down 40 guineas"(or whatever) this drew in crowds, and challengers, and money. Kudos to the jaguar for actually putting an end to this reign of terror, I guess. And also, people need to seriously understand how good at fighting bulldogs are.  Statue depicting a fighting bulldog mauling a wolf, apparently a common visage in western europe at the time. Additionally, like @ajay said, it probably is a mistake to assume parity. It clearly wasn't a concern in this "league" of fighting. They weren't finding bulldog sized donkeys or bears. Some have speculated the jaguar was likely a mexican jaguar, due to the close proximity of San Francisco. Fair, but no guarantee which I think is well illustrated by the Russian bear in England. And the French dog in San-Francisco, for that matter. We were more cosmopolitan then than many seem to appreciate. There has always been this weird belief on animal forums that fights were fixed to aid the dogs in winning. This is total BS. The guy with the dog is going up against the guy with the wild animal, they both want to win. They both have a legion of people betting on them winning who won't tolerate any bullshit. There no doubt were "fixes" and scams from time to time, the only real strong evidence I've come across was Jacko Maccacco, the monkey, having some of his opponents discretely cut on their arteries before fights. Yes that's right, the dogs were disadvantaged. Which makes perfect sense. Fighting dogs were a dime a dozen, a monkey trained to club dogs to death with a metal bar is exceedingly rare and valuable. That monkey spectacle was a gravy train they wanted to ride out for as long as possible, so some shenanigans were involved there. Generally speaking these people and these crowds were entirely fixated on "good sportsmanship", and very savvy and shrewd on the game. So assuming a pack of sneering jeering monsters all hoping the dog beats a disadvantaged and scared wild animal is, like I said, total bullcrap. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Feb 8, 2023 3:36:36 GMT
I think Airedale and Ridgeback are essentially the same animal with the Airedale having deadlier teeth and being smaller. Dunno if I agree with that totally. The running ability of the ridgeback is pretty distinctly superior, and I'd say the killer instinct of the airedale (maybe the teeth too, not sure) is also distinctly superior. Curs are all the same in a loose sense, but then all really quite different as well due to being different "recipes". I consider the airedale in a pretty unique lane. The ridgeback and catahoula I consider pretty much the same thing. Well according to my last survey they were the 23rd most popular breed in Aussie pig dog crosses. Doesn't sound that great but that's out of around 400 odd breeds. So... They've been higher in former surveys as well. They make appearances and contribute qualities to boardogs for sure. Probably also yeah just aren't that popular of a breed here in general. Pig doggers source from whats available, and what WAS available back in the "chiller" days (70s-early 90s) now has a big advantage because they got put into lineages back then that are still going. There are airedales around but they're pretty niche, and maybe also yes people did assume they weren't so tough with their gentlemenly appearance. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2023 5:46:38 GMT
Airedale Terriers are weird, some hybrid between scenthound, cur and terrier but by versatility all cur with the assertiveness of a gripping dog for mediocre game. Cougars should fall under that spectrum at parity and not warrant much caution. I follow David Hancock's opinions on Airedale Terrier classification - www.davidhancockondogs-serials.com/1173Including tigers and lions is odd as I don't know how they'd scale against dogs. Probably around jaguar level. I'd say despite being bulldogs, bull terriers deserve a higher ranking than bulldogs. So I'd do... 1. Bull & Terrier 2. Jaguar, I would never bet against it. You can hunt with gripping dogs in Sri Lankan leopard country but not jaguar country, and jaguars have beaten 4 pitbulls at once along with a champion fighting bulldog. So yeah... a chainweight 80lb APBT and a small 80lb jaguaress and sure. Bet on the dog if it's a hard mouth. 3. Bulldog/Lead-in catch dog, I think these 2 groups are basically the same whether they're a bulldog or boarhound. For example a 120lb Dogo would be a lead in catch dog, no different than an Alano Espanol. 4. Running catch dog, all running catch dogs are boarhounds but not all boarhounds are running catch dogs. Best terriers are also in this class, they're no worse than bull & terriers besides the compromise on durability and loose skin. 5. ''Wolfhound'' type sighthounds like Galgo Patagonicos, Maritsanes and Irish Wolfhounds. Along with Boergreyhounds, bonus points for the Airedale strain. 6. Leopards and snow leopards. 7. Cougars. Airedale Terriers are below 5 but above 6... Jaguarfan. lol. Hardcastle too. Just doesn't make theoretical sense that any ambush specialist beats a combat specialist in the case of lead-in catchdog. What is the catchdog (selected only for combat) compromising on to be beaten by an ambush specialist, which nature says has to have significant compromise on face-to-face combat if it's going to be an ambush specialist? I don't know how the jaguar or anything in nature can have the cake and eat it too. At least with the running catchdog I case might be made for compromising some combat to be able to run. But lead-in catchdog? I appreciate the postings on Airedales and stuff though, that was cool. The problem is that cougars and leopards can already be a decent (not good, or great) fight to a gripping dog at 120lbs, and me and you both saw how jaguars scored higher than either, by a significant margin. They're also calmer, stronger bite, better actual feats. They're not superior at all weights, not even 100lbs, no, it's at around 115-120lbs. This is slightly lower than the sporting zone for cougars and leopards which I believe is 125-130lbs. I think you either think cougars and leopards are made out of paper so your stance on jaguars is pretty lowly, OR you're not comprehending jaguars as well as you should be. Jaguars are ambush predators but jaguars, tigers and lions are the ones who hang in there. They don't immediately abort the mission if things get rough. Jaguars, tigers and lions are the kind of cats who ambush because they can't catch their prey, cougars and leopards are the kind of cats who ambush because they can't kill their prey. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2023 5:49:22 GMT
I think Airedale and Ridgeback are essentially the same animal with the Airedale having deadlier teeth and being smaller. Dunno if I agree with that totally. The running ability of the ridgeback is pretty distinctly superior, and I'd say the killer instinct of the airedale (maybe the teeth too, not sure) is also distinctly superior. Curs are all the same in a loose sense, but then all really quite different as well due to being different "recipes". I consider the airedale in a pretty unique lane. The ridgeback and catahoula I consider pretty much the same thing. Well according to my last survey they were the 23rd most popular breed in Aussie pig dog crosses. Doesn't sound that great but that's out of around 400 odd breeds. So... They've been higher in former surveys as well. They make appearances and contribute qualities to boardogs for sure. Probably also yeah just aren't that popular of a breed here in general. Pig doggers source from whats available, and what WAS available back in the "chiller" days (70s-early 90s) now has a big advantage because they got put into lineages back then that are still going. There are airedales around but they're pretty niche, and maybe also yes people did assume they weren't so tough with their gentlemenly appearance. I disagree on the ridgeback being superior at running... at least for long distances. Ridgebacks are good at it due to being part scenthound, Airedales are also part scenthound. So... In an open field the ridgeback will be a bit faster, yes. |
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