Dog fans, what’s your response to-

[PumAcinonyx SuperCat]

Jan 24, 2023 12:44:28 GMT Hardcastle said:

Unfortunately they were on a previous incarnation of carnivora.

I have made no effort whatsoever to find the cases, it may not even be difficult. I dunno (i'm busy enough on other things, working on big responses to a couple of threads).
Confirming puma killing adult bison would be interesting, but I think it's unlikely, they basically never kill even cattle over a few months old, despite having ample opportunity. Cattle ranchers hate wolves but could care less about pumas.

Yeah, I'm aware of the avoidance of cattle by cougars and all that. They never prey on boars, cattle don't flinch at them, all of that good stuff (I'll make posts on Quora to address all of that), but as regarding cattle ranchers and wolves, is it reported that a singular wolf is the one posing a threat? 

Remember that wolves live in packs. If cougars lived in packs, they would completely dwarf wolves within the ecosystem. I mean they kinda already do, just that wolves only have a chance by being social. Social cougars would be a thorn in the side for any rancher. 

Everything a wolf pack does, a cougar replicates all by itself, meaning that cougars are equal to them in predation feats despite being outnumbered. I have many more studies that show the superiority of cougars over wolves. 

When the time is right, I'll post them.

[Hardcastle]

What reddhole did a great job of doing, was explaining and demonstrating with a lot of evidence that the "pack" reliance of wolves was very overstated. Unlike AWDs and dholes, who are truly designed to work as large packs, wolves are kind of dabbling and aren't that good at it. It's really a breeding pair with their offspring who they are training, and they start driving their offspring away when they mature a lot of the time unless conditions are unusually bountiful.
I've since then seen some studies indicating their success rates actually reduce with pack size. This also aligns with domestic hunting dog observations. Often less is more and the pack thing isn't the huge advantage it's presumed to be. Too many dogs don't work well together, they actually trip over each other and have worse injuries and more deaths. Very different to AWDs and dholes that work together so masterfully. They are genuine pack animals and you see their proficiency at pack tactics are just so advanced and better than what you see from wolves or domestic dogs. Sexual dimorphism is another clue. Sexual dimorphism in AWDs and dholes and bush dogs is basically non existent, regardless of gender they are basically the same size and it's because they all do the same stuff and work together as cogs in a greater machine. Sexual dimorphism in wolves and domestic dogs is huge. That kind of implies that adult males DON'T tolerate one another and are designed to fight each other instead. Any dog owners who have tried to keep adult male intact dogs know this is true, it usually doesn't work, so they just aren't really THAT social of an animal. Wolves essentially descend from a common ancestor they share with the coyote which was MUCH more similar to a coyote than it was to a wolf. It was a "jackal" of sorts that was not very social and was opportunistic and cunning. They teamed up relatively recently, possibly to compete with dire wolves (no wolves at all), who themselves were VERY social like AWDs and Dholes (evidence being no sexual dimorphism). It doesn't come that naturally and wolves still are readily solo predators despite the common popular narratives about wolves.

[Deleted]

Wolves cleanse the ecosystem of the disgusting waste of space pussy cat that is the cougar. Surviving in cougar territory is comically easy, and if cougars lived in packs they'd have no more ambush ability and would be massacred en masse by wolves. As long as a wolf can see a cougar, it is 100% safe. 


Uh oh! Turns out the inferior pantherine, the marginally-better-than-a-lynx cougar has got its kill stolen by a solitary wolf!
Cougars can live in groups if they want. Any less than 5 males would just get the shit beaten out of them by a cow.

[Deleted]

Jan 23, 2023 2:11:59 GMT @hammerhead said:

“cats kill prey 5x their size alone”?

Right and wrong in some contexts. Since all cat species are ambush predators while, in contrast, every canid species is classified as pursuit predators. Cats use stealth and surprise, along with camouflage to effectively ambush their prey as their primary method of hunting. Canids on the other hand may use brief ambushes, but when the chase is started it becomes them running after their prey for miles on end, which leads to exhaustion, or in the unlucky circumstance the prey decides to fight back.
Canids typically hunt the bigger prey as their coordination along with cooperation and intelligence are able to exhaust and hunt prey thats way bigger than them. These, though, only apply to bigger canids like wolves and dogs (technically the same thing but to not cause confusion) because coyotes cannot take down elk or moose unless it is critically on the verge of death. The biggest prey a coyote has ever taken down are deer. Coyotes can only scavenge the leftovers of elk and moose.

And onto cats, cats, like tigers for example, are able to take down way bigger prey due to ambushing. For example, Sambar Deer are one of the Tigers main food source, and they are effectively ambushed by tigers. But this is due to an ambush being unexpected- as we also have tigers failing ambushes and having to run away from huge and dangerous preg such as guars.

And yes- many scientific studies, including some of the most well-known and controversial wolf researchers such as David Mech, have said the wolf hunting success rate is very, very low, from 5-10%. This research also showed that lone wolves actually showed more success rate in hunts than wolf packs, despite common myths being spread. But if we look closer- this is just basic evolution. Lone wolves are more than likely to only go after the slow, sick, or the young since they know that they cannot take down prey 10x over their size alone. Wolf packs on the other hand have been known to be bold and courageous around large and dangerous prey such as moose, muskoxen and bison. This may be good or bad depending on how the prey reacts.

Cats have such high success rate compared to canids but only for one reason. The difference in the prey they hunt.
Cats, including the big ones mainly have very high success rate in hunting small prey. On the other hand, canids have low success rate hunting big prey. But according to research cats also have low success rate in dangerous prey such as water buffalo, rhinos, and hippos.
Both have different success rates in the prey they hunt so its hard to come to a conclusion.

[Deleted]

Jan 24, 2023 13:26:03 GMT Hardcastle said:

What reddhole did a great job of doing, was explaining and demonstrating with a lot of evidence that the "pack" reliance of wolves was very overstated. Unlike AWDs and dholes, who are truly designed to work as large packs, wolves are kind of dabbling and aren't that good at it. It's really a breeding pair with their offspring who they are training, and they start driving their offspring away when they mature a lot of the time unless conditions are unusually bountiful.
I've since then seen some studies indicating their success rates actually reduce with pack size. This also aligns with domestic hunting dog observations. Often less is more and the pack thing isn't the huge advantage it's presumed to be. Too many dogs don't work well together, they actually trip over each other and have worse injuries and more deaths. Very different to AWDs and dholes that work together so masterfully. They are genuine pack animals and you see their proficiency at pack tactics are just so advanced and better than what you see from wolves or domestic dogs. Sexual dimorphism is another clue. Sexual dimorphism in AWDs and dholes and bush dogs is basically non existent, regardless of gender they are basically the same size and it's because they all do the same stuff and work together as cogs in a greater machine. Sexual dimorphism in wolves and domestic dogs is huge. That kind of implies that adult males DON'T tolerate one another and are designed to fight each other instead. Any dog owners who have tried to keep adult male intact dogs know this is true, it usually doesn't work, so they just aren't really THAT social of an animal. Wolves essentially descend from a common ancestor they share with the coyote which was MUCH more similar to a coyote than it was to a wolf. It was a "jackal" of sorts that was not very social and was opportunistic and cunning. They teamed up relatively recently, possibly to compete with dire wolves (no wolves at all), who themselves were VERY social like AWDs and Dholes (evidence being no sexual dimorphism). It doesn't come that naturally and wolves still are readily solo predators despite the common popular narratives about wolves.

Yes, aggression is WAY more part of wolf and domestic dog society than it is AWD and Dhole society. AWD and Dhole’s generally do not give a single fuck who joins their pack- they just need it for survival and to compete against other predators such as Lions and Hyenas and Tigers and take down bigger prey. Thats it. They don’t care.
On the other hand, in wolf and domestic dog society, aggression is a part of their social structures and they use it to get what they want. If another new wolf or dog even makes one wrong move- its over for them. Ditto. Out of the pack.

[Hardcastle]

Where are these high success rates for cats? I've only seen abysmally low success rates for cats.

Wolf success rates are misleading when you really understand how wolves operate. Wolves "visit" prey animals regularly with no intention of killing them, just to check up on them and run them around a bit. Later they may escalate to harrassing or wounding a future target with still no intention of killing. Researchers are prone to chalking these up as "failed predation attempts" if they don't know the nitty gritty of how wolves work. They're never really "failing" anything, maybe they could fail to herd prey away from the outskirts of their territory and back into the middle of it. But "failed predation attempt" doesn't really mesh with how wolves work.

The other side of this is noting how masterfully they make their prey weak and tenderised before killing it. That's something to understand before holding them above big cats. Cats don't have strategies in place to weaken and debilitate prey animals over time.
However, they do still target weakness and vulnerability. Hence the ambush, that's just masterfully striking when the target is least able to fight back.

Even so, they fail most of the time. And they fail-fail. Like they badly wanted to kill that animal right then and there and they failed and went off back to the drawing board to formulate a new assassination attempt.

[Deleted]

Jan 25, 2023 16:50:50 GMT Hardcastle said:

Where are these high success rates for cats? I've only seen abysmally low success rates for cats.

Wolf success rates are misleading when you really understand how wolves operate. Wolves "visit" prey animals regularly with no intention of killing them, just to check up on them and run them around a bit. Later they may escalate to harrassing or wounding a future target with still no intention of killing. Researchers are prone to chalking these up as "failed predation attempts" if they don't know the nitty gritty of how wolves work. They're never really "failing" anything, maybe they could fail to herd prey away from the outskirts of their territory and back into the middle of it. But "failed predation attempt" doesn't really mesh with how wolves work.

The other side of this is noting how masterfully they make their prey weak and tenderised before killing it. That's something to understand before holding them above big cats. Cats don't have strategies in place to weaken and debilitate prey animals over time.
However, they do still target weakness and vulnerability. Hence the ambush, that's just masterfully striking when the target is least able to fight back.

Even so, they fail most of the time. And they fail-fail. Like they badly wanted to kill that animal right then and there and they failed and went off back to the drawing board to formulate a new assassination attempt.

Im thinking you mean lions. Lions have low hunting success rate, but tigers, leopards and house cats generally have high. Thats mostly because lions are the only cats that work in a coordinated, cooperated pack to hunt as in contrast other cats are solitary.

[Hardcastle]

No tigers are specifically the cat I had in mind, most sources say 1 in 10 or 1 in 20, including very noteworthy tiger researchers. That was always common knowledge, but recently, in the last 20 years or so there have been studies supposedly finding amur tigers have higher success rates in Russia during the snowy winter. To me that's all well and good, I don't dispute that's accurate, but overall I still subscribe of course to the 5-10% figures found to generally be true before someone had to do mental gymnastics and bend over backwards to find special circumstances with a less shameful number.

Tigers may look ferocious, but their success rates are actually surprisingly quite low.

Biologists say that tigers are only successful at hunting between 5-10% of the time, although the Amur tigers in Russia’s Far East have higher kill rates when preying on deer and boar in snowy terrain.

link

Based on observations made in Kanha National Park in India, US field biologist George Schaller reckoned tigers were successful only 5% of the time, while tiger conservationist Valmik Thapar estimates 10%. But studies of Amur tigers in Russia’s Far East, reconstructing predation events from tracks in the snow, give kill rates of a 38% when hunting red deer to 54% for wild boar.

www.discoverwildlife.com/animal-facts/mammals/hunting-success-rates-how-predators-compare/

Dr Desmond Morris, in his book Cat World tells us that the hunting success rate of tigers is about 1 in 20 or 5%. Clearly a poor success rate. He also tells us that a female with cubs has a better success rate because of the urgency to feed her cubs. He puts it at a 1 in 5 chance or 20%. The internet tells me that the success rate is 10% or between 5% and 10% depending on the source. However way you cut it, the success rate is low. This accounts for why tigers are careful eaters leaving little of its prey for scavengers. And they gulp down as much as 30 kg or 66 pounds of meat at a single sitting. When it has finished it may stay with the partly eaten body of its prey until it becomes hungry again and then continue. Alternatively a tiger may cover the carcass with leaves and branches hiding it from predators and scavengers. It can then return for a second meal.

link

etc.

[CoolJohnson]

Jan 24, 2023 12:44:28 GMT Hardcastle said:

Unfortunately they were on a previous incarnation of carnivora.

I have made no effort whatsoever to find the cases, it may not even be difficult. I dunno (i'm busy enough on other things, working on big responses to a couple of threads).
Confirming puma killing adult bison would be interesting, but I think it's unlikely, they basically never kill even cattle over a few months old, despite having ample opportunity. Cattle ranchers hate wolves but could care less about pumas.

Have to agree.

Cougars are overrated. The other Big Cats like Leopard and Snow Leopard can go for big prey depending on the region, and Leopards do occasionally kill adult Cattle. There are also a few instances of them killing adult Boar.

The only problem is that Cougars get more attention for their feats due to living in the Americas, which is the epicenter of English ecology studies.

[PumAcinonyx SuperCat]

Jan 25, 2023 17:42:56 GMT CoolJohnson said:

Jan 24, 2023 12:44:28 GMT Hardcastle said:

Unfortunately they were on a previous incarnation of carnivora.

I have made no effort whatsoever to find the cases, it may not even be difficult. I dunno (i'm busy enough on other things, working on big responses to a couple of threads).
Confirming puma killing adult bison would be interesting, but I think it's unlikely, they basically never kill even cattle over a few months old, despite having ample opportunity. Cattle ranchers hate wolves but could care less about pumas.

Have to agree.

Cougars are overrated. The other Big Cats like Leopard and Snow Leopard can go for big prey depending on the region, and Leopards do occasionally kill adult Cattle. There are also a few instances of them killing adult Boar.

The only problem is that Cougars get more attention for their feats due to living in the Americas, which is the epicenter of English ecology studies.

No, cougars are word for word the exact and sworn opposite of overrated. They can kill cattle and even moose. All the animals that people would be happy to believe cougars cannot kill, can be killed and have been killed by cougars.

[Deleted]

Jan 25, 2023 19:59:01 GMT PumAcinonyx SuperCat said:

Jan 25, 2023 17:42:56 GMT CoolJohnson said:

Have to agree.

Cougars are overrated. The other Big Cats like Leopard and Snow Leopard can go for big prey depending on the region, and Leopards do occasionally kill adult Cattle. There are also a few instances of them killing adult Boar.

The only problem is that Cougars get more attention for their feats due to living in the Americas, which is the epicenter of English ecology studies.

No, cougars are word for word the exact and sworn opposite of overrated. They can kill cattle and even moose. All the animals that people would be happy to believe cougars cannot kill, can be killed and have been killed by cougars.

Source? And if anything, Snow Leopards are better than Cougars.

[PumAcinonyx SuperCat]

Jan 25, 2023 20:01:09 GMT Wyatt said:

Jan 25, 2023 19:59:01 GMT PumAcinonyx SuperCat said:

No, cougars are word for word the exact and sworn opposite of overrated. They can kill cattle and even moose. All the animals that people would be happy to believe cougars cannot kill, can be killed and have been killed by cougars.

Source? And if anything, Snow Leopards are better than Cougars.

In what world are snow leopards better than cougars? 

Source: 

▪︎ A cougar killed 18 moose in less than a year: billingsgazette.com/outdoors/ferocious-appetites-study-finds-mountain-lions-may-be-eating-more/article_d9cf046b-2c47-539f-a267-972e72e570b6.html




▪︎ According to this study, adult moose of over 400 kg were taken by male cougars, though very rarely:

www.researchgate.net/publication/229939293_Cougar_Kill_Rate_and_Prey_Composition_in_a_Multiprey_System



▪︎ In the state of Utah, adult moose are preyed on by mountain lions. 4 moose out of seven that were radio collared were killed by cougars: www.scribd.com/document/60251228/Utah-Moose-Statewide-Management-Plan



▪︎ In 1955, one large male cougar killed two adult bull moose at Big Creek, Ontario. Here, bull moose can weigh more than 700 kg: books.google.com/books/about/The_Ghost_of_North_America.html?id=6pgboKfGtWcC 

I'd love to see a snow leopard doing any of these. You could argue leopards are better, but most certainly not snow leopard.

[lincoln]

Jan 25, 2023 16:50:50 GMT Hardcastle said:

Where are these high success rates for cats? I've only seen abysmally low success rates for cats.

Wolf success rates are misleading when you really understand how wolves operate. Wolves "visit" prey animals regularly with no intention of killing them, just to check up on them and run them around a bit. Later they may escalate to harrassing or wounding a future target with still no intention of killing. Researchers are prone to chalking these up as "failed predation attempts" if they don't know the nitty gritty of how wolves work. They're never really "failing" anything, maybe they could fail to herd prey away from the outskirts of their territory and back into the middle of it. But "failed predation attempt" doesn't really mesh with how wolves work.

The other side of this is noting how masterfully they make their prey weak and tenderised before killing it. That's something to understand before holding them above big cats. Cats don't have strategies in place to weaken and debilitate prey animals over time.
However, they do still target weakness and vulnerability. Hence the ambush, that's just masterfully striking when the target is least able to fight back.

Even so, they fail most of the time. And they fail-fail. Like they badly wanted to kill that animal right then and there and they failed and went off back to the drawing board to formulate a new assassination attempt.

Canines can have very high success rates, take AWD for example 

[lincoln]

Jan 23, 2023 2:11:59 GMT @hammerhead said:

“cats kill prey 5x their size alone”?

I am not a strict dog fan, I’m not biased. But I still bring up ambushes and I also bring up gripping dogs

[Deleted]

Jan 25, 2023 20:13:38 GMT PumAcinonyx SuperCat said:

Jan 25, 2023 20:01:09 GMT Wyatt said:

Source? And if anything, Snow Leopards are better than Cougars.

In what world are snow leopards better than cougars? 

Source: 

▪︎ A cougar killed 18 moose in less than a year: billingsgazette.com/outdoors/ferocious-appetites-study-finds-mountain-lions-may-be-eating-more/article_d9cf046b-2c47-539f-a267-972e72e570b6.html




▪︎ According to this study, adult moose of over 400 kg were taken by male cougars, though very rarely:

www.researchgate.net/publication/229939293_Cougar_Kill_Rate_and_Prey_Composition_in_a_Multiprey_System



▪︎ In the state of Utah, adult moose are preyed on by mountain lions. 4 moose out of seven that were radio collared were killed by cougars: www.scribd.com/document/60251228/Utah-Moose-Statewide-Management-Plan



▪︎ In 1955, one large male cougar killed two adult bull moose at Big Creek, Ontario. Here, bull moose can weigh more than 700 kg: books.google.com/books/about/The_Ghost_of_North_America.html?id=6pgboKfGtWcC 

I'd love to see a snow leopard doing any of these. You could argue leopards are better, but most certainly not snow leopard.

That is by definition an unfair comparison because cougars are much larger than snow leopards.