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Post by s on Dec 2, 2023 20:48:56 GMT
It's akin to saying X army, without any weapons, had several dozen battles against Y armies either equal or bigger than it and dominated every time despite being ambushed.
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Post by Hardcastle on Dec 2, 2023 21:29:18 GMT
The dog was known to never ever run from a fight and ultimately fought to the death willingly when it had no teeth. There's no way it is vaguely reasonable at all to assume it was the one who backed down in any case. If it had no teeth. How was he going to dominate all encounters when he can't even cause significant damage to the Leopard? He had no teeth (or broken nubs) at the end of his life when he was elderly. Even in that state, and mortally wounded in fact nearly cut in half from a giant boar's tusks, he chose to walk back into a fight with the boar. That is a demonstration of his gameness level, which he was born with. There's literally zero chance he ever backed down or fled from a leopard fight (which occurred in his younger days when he had teeth). The leopards he fought either died or fled after losing, I suspect the latter more likely for most if not all of the fights. The dog did not forfeit or submit, it had no concept of that action. |
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Post by s on Dec 2, 2023 21:37:25 GMT
If it had no teeth. How was he going to dominate all encounters when he can't even cause significant damage to the Leopard? He had no teeth (or broken nubs) at the end of his life when he was elderly. Even in that state, and mortally wounded in fact nearly cut in half from a giant boar's tusks, he chose to walk back into a fight with the boar. That is a demonstration of his gameness level, which he was born with. There's literally zero chance he ever backed down or fled from a leopard fight (which occurred in his younger days when he had teeth). The leopards he fought either died or fled after losing, I suspect the latter more likely for most if not all of the fights. The dog did not forfeit or submit, it had no concept of that action. If even a few of the Leopards died the owner wouldn't have taken long to notice Leopard carcasses in the vicinity with dog bite wounds. |
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Post by s on Dec 2, 2023 21:45:37 GMT
Still, you need to provide proof the Leopards in question were large males in their primes. I doubt a healthy Leopard would attack a random big dog rather than it's usual prey unless either injured or starving and desperate for food. Or both. Most man-eater Leopards and Tigers had serious terminal injuries that prevented them from hunting their usual prey, such as broken jaws or teeth. Resorting to killing humans.
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Post by s on Dec 2, 2023 22:31:08 GMT
Anyways, i'll let Menvidas debate this. He knows more about Leopards than me.
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Post by s on Dec 2, 2023 22:45:32 GMT
I don't believe bulldogs are really much more powerful than boarhounds, especially the dogo which is a bulldog-leaning boarhound. A dogal, yes. Dogos and alanos and corsos and presas... there's really no strength/combat difference. One last thing. Tired of having to constantly explain to foreigners that 99% of modern Presas suck. They used to be quite formidable and top tier fighters like other Boarhounds. In the past there were Presa bloodlines that were very ferocious. They were mixed with the local rural bardino (which are used as both guard dogs and LGDs) and their function was fighting but they were not a breed of dog, rather a typology mixing the bardino with English fighting dogs that arrived in the 19th century. Top picture: Old-Type Presa, nearly extinct Bottom picture: New-type Presa, almost the entirety of the modern Presa population ![]()   Very easy to see the huge body, and performance difference. Modern presas are very similar to Rottweilers, much closer to Rottweilers than to Dogos or Alanos. They have bad stamina and get tired very easily. They have a strong bearing and they are very strong guard dogs but they get exhausted quickly. They are not lycanthropes as some think, they are very similar to the Rottweiler when it comes to physical character, they have more power in the mouth but much less physical vigor. A Pitbull is stronger than a Presa and im not joking. |
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Post by grippingwhiteness on Dec 2, 2023 23:00:05 GMT
Not much is told about what happened with Smuts and the leopards, we know he returned severely torn and injured from most of the fights and covered in his own blood.
When we look at dogos winning over cougars we know the dogos win with barely a few scratches, indicating the cat failed at defending itself and got subjugated. When a puma defends itself well it means that it manages to avoid this and does a lot of damage to the dogo who failed to control it and therefore takes all the punishments, we have seen this happening a few times and a some of these few times is how the cougars also won some fights with dogos.
Dale is right to claim the latter is more likely, Smuts being covered in ugly wounds and bleeding all over his body indicates that he failed to subdue the defensive ability of the leopard which consequently clinged over the dog and started tearing it apart with the claws and biting it before taking a chance to flee with the bleeding dog still on its pursuit. Pretty likely what happened there.
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Post by s on Dec 2, 2023 23:01:43 GMT
I have no problem seeing Bulldogs and Boarhounds as formidable opponents for any wild predator close to their size. Having human carers allows these dogs to compromise attributes, both physical and mental, which are needed by a wild self sustaining animal but would be a hindrance in a fight - makes total sense. It goes without saying that the lack or minimization of these attributes would then give these dogs some key advantages over wild animals. Homever, a 40-45kg Dogo isn't anywhere close to the size of a 65-70kg BC/Colorado/South Patagonia Puma. It's a mismatch no matter how good the Dogo is. So i don't think the Puma would experience much difficulty. Just like a 65-70kg Persian Leopard wouldn't have much difficulty beating up a 40-45kg Amur Leopard I guess this is all based on the assumption a 45 kg amur leopard and a 45 kg dogo are equal, which I don't believe to be true. At all, frankly. A size advantage for the cat makes it even. Where it starts becoming uneven... not totally sure, but there are promising clues and indications where dogs performed well with weight disadvantages. I favour the cat in a fight to the death probably as early as it having a 5 kg weight advantage, and possibly even at parity, but, I envision a dominant performance from the dog with the cat eeking out a kill via accumulated damage from the bottom. As far as it being easy? Which implies a dominant victory where the puma pins the dog down and controls it without the dog having much of an opportunity to resist or struggle? I think it actually does need a good weight advantage, assuming it is a very good dog. I mean you said yourself, the dog has significant combat advantages, much more of it is dedicated to just combat (physically and mentally), so to me that means the cat needs a size advantage to make it easy and I think a decent one. Maybe 10 kgs, maybe 15, I dunno. Would go on a case by case basis. I think its easy for the dog at parity. What I have seen and read seems to align with that reality. I don't think it's controversial to say a 65-70kg Puma is strong and powerful enough to just hold the 40-45kg Dogo down with it's limbs, after that it's immobilized and it can't fight back unless it breaks free. Either way subjugation will happen quite quickly. |
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Post by s on Dec 2, 2023 23:04:35 GMT
Not much is told about what happened with Smuts and the leopards, we know he returned severely torn and injured from most of the fights and covered in his own blood. When we look at dogos winning over cougars we know the dogos win with barely a few scratches, indicating the cat failed at defending itself and got subjugated. When a puma defends itself well it means that it manages to avoid this and does a lot of damage to the dogo who failed to control it and therefore takes all the punishments, we have seen this happening a few times and a some of these few times is how the cougars also won some fights with dogos. Dale is right to claim the latter is more likely, Smuts being covered in ugly wounds and bleeding all over his body indicates that he failed to subdue the defensive ability of the leopard which consequently clinged over the dog and started tearing it apart with the claws and biting it before taking a chance to flee with the bleeding dog still on its pursuit. Pretty likely what happened there. Didn't Dale claim he didn't need medical assistance? Quite bold claim in my opinion. If indeed major injuries and bleeding happened it's almost certain he implicitly received medical attention. |
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Post by grippingwhiteness on Dec 2, 2023 23:09:25 GMT
Can we all agree best Vs best goes horribly for the Dogo? Even a very experienced Dogo will lose badly ton One of those jacked 70kg Torres del Paime Pumas. We need to compare them to females or males from manlet populations to make it fair A 70 kg cougar would slaughter a 45 kg small dogo, that's for sure, the dogo Tupac got that ending and got defeated without a doubt by a large cougar supposedly around that size. Too much damage imput and too large size for the cat to actually get "harmed" in a fight considering how futile the dog's teeth are considering that size difference. The dogo will still be a very vicious opponent, but a 70 kg cougar "best vs best" just slaughters a dogo by overpowering it and killing it with a skull/neck bite thanks to size advantage . Sure the dog won't be easily destroyed, even though Tupac did, the dog will fight till the end, it will prove to be way tougher and stronger than a wolf, but? But, it will still get killed. That said a 35 lb bulldog is small and compact, proportionally a tank that would slaughter both dogo and cougar, and I'll tell you that 35 lb bulldog will give hell if not even beat a 100 lb dogo. Bulldogs are proportionally disproportionate, big bodies, big necks, big heads, very compact and hard to deal with. Hard to subdue. A dogo is more normal and proportionate in its size range, it's "lankier" and more gracile than that bulldog, easier to subdue for a 140-150 lb cougar. |
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Post by grippingwhiteness on Dec 2, 2023 23:10:35 GMT
Not much is told about what happened with Smuts and the leopards, we know he returned severely torn and injured from most of the fights and covered in his own blood. When we look at dogos winning over cougars we know the dogos win with barely a few scratches, indicating the cat failed at defending itself and got subjugated. When a puma defends itself well it means that it manages to avoid this and does a lot of damage to the dogo who failed to control it and therefore takes all the punishments, we have seen this happening a few times and a some of these few times is how the cougars also won some fights with dogos. Dale is right to claim the latter is more likely, Smuts being covered in ugly wounds and bleeding all over his body indicates that he failed to subdue the defensive ability of the leopard which consequently clinged over the dog and started tearing it apart with the claws and biting it before taking a chance to flee with the bleeding dog still on its pursuit. Pretty likely what happened there. Didn't Dale claim he didn't need medical assistance? Quite bold claim in my opinion. If indeed major injuries and bleeding happened it's almost certain he implicitly received medical attention. No, Smuts REFUSED medical assistance because of his very ill temperament. The owner tried to give him medical assistance but the dog was aggressive and refused, it's told in the quote he sent me |
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Post by s on Dec 2, 2023 23:12:56 GMT
Can we all agree best Vs best goes horribly for the Dogo? Even a very experienced Dogo will lose badly ton One of those jacked 70kg Torres del Paime Pumas. We need to compare them to females or males from manlet populations to make it fair A 35 lb bulldog is small and compact, proportionally a tank that would slaughter both dogo and cougar, and I'll tell you that 35 lb bulldog will give hell if not even beat a 100 lb dogo. Bulldogs are proportionally disproportionate, big bodies, big necks, big heads, very compact and hard to deal with. A dogo is more normal in its size range, it's "lankier" and more gracile than that bulldog, easier to subdue for a 140-150 lb cougar. Yeah, reminds me of how i have seen experienced Argentinian hunters that use Dogos say Peccaries are deadlier than Boars for a similar reason. On the historia del Dogo Argentino book. |
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Post by s on Dec 2, 2023 23:15:28 GMT
Didn't Dale claim he didn't need medical assistance? Quite bold claim in my opinion. If indeed major injuries and bleeding happened it's almost certain he implicitly received medical attention. No, Smuts REFUSED medical assistance because of his very ill temperament. The owner tried to give him medical assistance but the dog was aggressive and refused, it's told in the quote he sent me Understood. I got the wrong idea because Dale said "none of his injuries were major enough to require medical assistance". Which is technically true as in "not severe enough to cause death if not treated or make the body unable to eventually fix them naturally" |
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Post by grippingwhiteness on Dec 2, 2023 23:25:36 GMT
This is what Dale said I agree with everything he said here, everything. So no need to say he downgrades leopards , he even has my same opinion nearly on the Smuts case, with never lost he means never getting killed, he got beaten and torn open badly but was never killed. Lol, Dale does NOT downgrade them, he literally fought me when defending his thesis of the circus leopard killing TWO big german boarhounds in a SINGLE fight. I literally still see that as scientifically impossible to have happened but he still defends that case, and Dale defended it. Dale does not downgrade cats, he has a different way to how he sees fights. Sure everyone agrees that a 65-70 kg leopard/cougar still slaughter and kill with a skull/neck bite a smallish 40-45 kg dogo. But it won't be easy, the dogo is nasty to deal with. Sure there's individual variation, some dogos will get instantly subdued and killed by exceptionally strong and powerful cats, others will have a struggle and the cat will of course still kill the dog, but way more difficulty. Results vary |
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Post by s on Dec 2, 2023 23:42:17 GMT
This is what Dale said I agree with everything he said here, everything. So no need to say he downgrades leopards , he even has my same opinion nearly on the Smuts case, with never lost he means never getting killed, he got beaten and torn open badly but was never killed. Lol, Dale does NOT downgrade them, he literally fought me when defending his thesis of the circus leopard killing TWO big german boarhounds in a SINGLE fight. I literally still see that as scientifically impossible to have happened but he still defends that case, and Dale defended it. Dale does not downgrade cats, he has a different way to how he sees fights. Sure everyone agrees that a 65-70 kg leopard/cougar still slaughter and kill with a skull/neck bite a smallish 40-45 kg dogo. But it won't be easy, the dogo is nasty to deal with. Sure there's individual variation, some dogos will get instantly subdued and killed by exceptionally strong and powerful cats, others will have a struggle and the cat will of course still kill the dog, but way more difficulty. Results vary "It never lost, in that it was never killed or even badly wounded in a way that put it out of action or required medical treatment" I was referring to it. Disagree on the "never put out of action" part tbf. I think he needed (and received) some rest. Would be reckless to let him go in another "adventure" while already being severely injured. |
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