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Post by Hardcastle on Jan 6, 2023 3:15:43 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2023 3:17:55 GMT
Under the guise it is just the Dogo's head being up, if the Dogo is going for the wolf's face and ears it will have its head up removing the wolf's leverage advantage which robs the wolf of its chomp potential, no?
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Post by Hardcastle on Jan 6, 2023 3:32:12 GMT
Wolf might have it's head up too... but yeah wolf vs dogo isn't like pitbull vs wolf. It would be foolish to favour a wolf at parity. At max sizes it might be interesting.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2023 3:35:41 GMT
Wolf might have it's head up too... but yeah wolf vs dogo isn't like pitbull vs dogo. It would be foolish to favour a wolf at parity. At max sizes it might be interesting. Oh, thought wolves and pitbulls were the same. My mistake, sorry... Lol |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2023 3:38:04 GMT
Wolf might have it's head up too... but yeah wolf vs dogo isn't like pitbull vs dogo. It would be foolish to favour a wolf at parity. At max sizes it might be interesting. Oh, thought wolves and pitbulls were the same. My mistake, sorry... Lol Well they’re both Canis lupus. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jan 6, 2023 3:40:12 GMT
Lol, I meant pitbull vs wolf. Wolf vs dogo isn't like wolf vs pitbull. The wolf doesn't have a massive "leverage advantage". I mean it starts getting kind of massive with the biggest freak wolves, but not at parity. At parity there's about 5 inches between them, still a lot but not like "sniping" distance.
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Post by Hardcastle on Jan 6, 2023 3:41:10 GMT
Possibly should use a different dogo pic...
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Post by theundertaker45 on Jan 6, 2023 8:15:04 GMT
A member of our Discord server who wants to study wolves in real life sent me some documents with fairly large wolves being weighed and measured properly for shoulder height; I can post the data here when I've gone through it. Then we'd have a reasonable estimation on how tall a wolf would be at which weight due to the sample being fairly alright. Hardcastle When it comes to cougars/leopards; they are about equal in shoulder height, even closer in this aspect than lions and tigers. From what I've seen the largest freak cougars/leopards max out at 78-79cm in terms of shoulder height. Average is probably like 68-69cm for a medium-sized population. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jan 6, 2023 8:39:35 GMT
A member of our Discord server who wants to study wolves in real life sent me some documents with fairly large wolves being weighed and measured properly for shoulder height; I can post the data here when I've gone through it. Then we'd have a reasonable estimation on how tall a wolf would be at which weight due to the sample being fairly alright. That would be very cool. Is that "A normal guy" or whatever his name was? I seem to recall a guy who got increasingly obsessed with the wolves at yellowstone and possibly ended up publishing work on them. He actually kind of showed me a thing or two about the reality of wolf weights, and how silly the weights thrown around casually on childish "wolf information pages" are. Interesting. So do you believe even a monster 90 kg leopard or puma would be 27 inches/69 cm? |
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Post by theundertaker45 on Jan 6, 2023 9:26:45 GMT
Hardcastle Yeah, it's "The Normal Guy"; he's now in university and wants to pursue a career as wolf behavioralist. So far he's collected thousands of wolf weights and other data on them. The biggest cougars and leopards approach body lengths of 150cm or a bit more; that's in the region of a small lioness/tigress, hence they'll end up at 78-79cm in terms of SH. Those are the monstrous specimens that come close to 100kg or might even reach that mark. Large populations of cougars and leopards aren't far off a jaguar in terms of height and length but they are consequently lighter; not as heavily built and bulky. They still need to retain some sort of athleticism to quickly rush up a tree to escape wolves, lions, black bears, grizzlies, hyenas and so on. A jaguar usually is an apex predator in his environment who just has to watch out not to jump into the wrong river with a huge black caiman or Morelet's crocodile waiting for him. In terms of average shoulder height, it varies; I've seen much more data on leopards than I've seen on cougars. Indian leopards are about 66cm tall on average, African leopards about 68cm, Persian leopards about the same or one cm taller. For your interest, I also wondered about the actual shoulder height of snow leopards and just recently a document on their morphometrics has been released. It showed that they display basically next to no sexual dimorphism in terms of size; both adult females and males average 64cm in terms of SH with males being a mere 17% heavier. When it comes to wolves, I've now gone through the data provided by "The Normal Guy" and the results are: Southeastern Alaska (Wolf)Weight: 41.16kg (90.75lbs) for males (n=4); 28.12kg (62.00lbs) for females (n=3) Shoulder Height: 79.17cm (31.17in) for males (n=4); 67.31cm (26.50in) for females (n=3) La Mauricie National Park (Wolf)Weight: 28.20kg (62.17lbs) for females (n=4) Shoulder Height: 76.20cm (30.00in) for females (n=4) La Mauricie National Park (Coyote)
Weight: 18.70kg (41.23lbs) for males (n=3) Shoulder Height: 65.70cm (25.87in) for males (n=3) I'll ask for further data to increase the sample; that's all I got for now.
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Post by Hardcastle on Jan 6, 2023 9:41:39 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2023 13:08:40 GMT
Dogo and wolf at weight parity-  The dogo would be wider from the front, has far denser muscle, and more of it, heavier skin, and every single bone in it's body is thicker and heavier. Thus the visual discrepancy at weight parity. The wolf would also look quite different shaved. Very very sleek and gracile. The wolf also looks to have more loose and sagging/hanging skin than the dogo, again creating more space on the screen. I think the tiger is a little like that compared to the lion as well, and from what I understand the lion is leaner. I wouldn't be surprised if the wolf carries more fat percentage than the dogo as well. Quick search says a group of wolves averaged 10.4% bodyfat +/- 2.2% . But got nothing on fat percentage for working dogo, or APBT for that matter. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2023 13:26:35 GMT
This site gives bodyfat content for some dogs plus wolf freshmarketpetfood.ca/blogs/news/body-fat-of-different-dog-breeds although I'm not sure how reliable it is. Greyhound they have at 7.9%. They say the wolf there carries 28.5% bodyfat. Whether true or not it causes me to consider that the larger cold-climate North-western timber wolves may very well carry more bodyfat percentage than other grey wolf subspecies. And probably the case with most of the larger colder-climate subspecies of whatever species. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2023 16:45:21 GMT
This site gives bodyfat content for some dogs plus wolf freshmarketpetfood.ca/blogs/news/body-fat-of-different-dog-breeds although I'm not sure how reliable it is. Greyhound they have at 7.9%. They say the wolf there carries 28.5% bodyfat. Whether true or not it causes me to consider that the larger cold-climate North-western timber wolves may very well carry more bodyfat percentage than other grey wolf subspecies. And probably the case with most of the larger colder-climate subspecies of whatever species. I wonder if Russian wolves are comparable to/rival Mackenzie Valley wolves in body fat. Your last line makes a lot of sense, especially for Canadian and Patagonian cougars for example. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jan 6, 2023 17:30:52 GMT
Dogo and wolf at weight parity- The dogo would be wider from the front, has far denser muscle, and more of it, heavier skin, and every single bone in it's body is thicker and heavier. Thus the visual discrepancy at weight parity. The wolf would also look quite different shaved. Very very sleek and gracile. The wolf also looks to have more loose and sagging/hanging skin than the dogo, again creating more space on the screen. I think the tiger is a little like that compared to the lion as well, and from what I understand the lion is leaner. I wouldn't be surprised if the wolf carries more fat percentage than the dogo as well. Quick search says a group of wolves averaged 10.4% bodyfat +/- 2.2% . But got nothing on fat percentage for working dogo, or APBT for that matter. May be able to find apbt if we dug enough... Dogo just probably won't happen for a good while. I suspect a gamebred conditioned apbt would actually have a body fat percentage as low as a greyhound, and then you have to consider lean conditioned (especially for hot climates) pig dogs as well. You can basically see on those dogs that the body fat is very low and the muscles are dense and hard with low intramuscular fat. These are also high performance high octane machines. It needs to be understood fat isn't a negative thing, it's a survivalist thing, so ofcourse survivalists are gonna put it on easily and retain a lot of it easily and store it where they can, including intramuscularly, but it is gonna come at the expense of lbs for lbs functionality/performance per cubic inch of meat and muscle. Next on the hitlist for me would be wild cats and their body fat %. By my estimation they couldn't afford to hold much intramuscular fat due to the explosive performance required of their fast twitch muscles, but I still would wager their body fat percentages would definitely exceed greyhounds (and in turn pit fighting bull terriers and working pig dogs, which I bet are close to greyhounds, though we may be a ways off securing proof). Bears hold a LOT of external fat obviously, it's one of their main survival adaptations, but probably have dense muscle with I imagine less intramuscular fat than wolves "per cubic inch" if you will. I'm all speculation here, but yeah that's a really good point to bring up. |
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