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Post by Hardcastle on Jan 6, 2023 17:56:30 GMT
This site gives bodyfat content for some dogs plus wolf freshmarketpetfood.ca/blogs/news/body-fat-of-different-dog-breeds although I'm not sure how reliable it is. Greyhound they have at 7.9%. They say the wolf there carries 28.5% bodyfat. Whether true or not it causes me to consider that the larger cold-climate North-western timber wolves may very well carry more bodyfat percentage than other grey wolf subspecies. And probably the case with most of the larger colder-climate subspecies of whatever species. Rott being high is interesting but kind of also not surprising, makes sense and could explain their performance limitations which have somewhat bewildered and intrigued dog guys, including me, for ... Honestly one of the first performance observations I made as a small child. As an infant the tough dogs were bull terriers, "rockwheelers", Dobermans, Bullmastiffs and German shepherds right? At some point you become a slightly more astute "little boy", as opposed to a mindless infant, and you become interested in analysing the toughness level in dogs, and one of the first crushing realities I started noticing was something wasn't quite there with the legendary rock-wielder. I had to break it to my best friend and fellow enthusiast of tough animals that rockwielders were actually called Rottweilers, and also were kind of ass because much smaller bull terriers beat them up, Dobermans and gsds also not actually tough compared to bull terriers and Bullmastiffs and these other more exotic breeds I've been learning about over here like cane Corsos and tosas and presa canarios and Alano Espanols and etc. The explosiveness, strength, willingness to fight and ignore pain was lacking in the rott compared to dogs that look a lot like it but are just ... Different. And that difference in hindsight, physiologically, is puffier softer weaker muscles. Rotts are related to the bullbreeds, but are more primitive and rustic and utilitarian. Less high performance. Droving cattle over long distances, maybe getting rough with them when necessary, but first things first let's survive the journey and work long hours on little food and etc, so survivalist fat is gonna still need to be relied upon a bit. With the bull/mastiff lineage, one I consider to have descended from dogs like the Rottweiler, we start getting a more elite level of specialisation for performance. Their humans are actually meeting their other basic needs better and just asking them to perform combatively with more focus and commitment. This change changes their bodies in response. Ditto for the Greyhound vs more primitive survivalist sighthounds like the levriero meridionale. They're literally getting refined and shaved down for elite performance over the generations. The "puffy utilitarian muscle vs dense high performance muscle" has never been made so clear to be as now owning a Kelpie and a bull arab at the same time, both the same age. Your source is about feeding and yeah just how much more food the bull arab needs, even proportional to size, and then still the Kelpie is puffy and a little fat when the bull arab is lean and shredded, and that's with equal exercise. It's clear the bull arab is a more explosive high octane machine, but also clear the bull arab would starve to death much much faster if times became lean. Naturally with a wild dog like a wolf it's adaptations are going to have to compromise - we'd love to be explosive and fast and super strong, but we can't afford it, we need to be frugal and sensible with our adaptations and be prepared for lean times and long hours of hard work with with minimal sustenance. |
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Post by theundertaker45 on Jan 6, 2023 19:06:40 GMT
Regarding body fat, I once came across a few graphs on it regarding bears and wolves, I put them together below. Grizzly bears from the central Arctic can be as low as 10.8% during summer and go up to 25.5% in autumn. In wolves it is even more extreme, a population in Nelchina went from 15.5% in spring down to 3.3% in summer. There is also an extensive work on big cat body fat but unfortunately the majority of the sample consists of captive big cats and only one sample of wild lions is used. The authors of said study showed that captive big cats more or less average the same amount of body fat (~24% if I remember correctly, no big cat species really stands out at being fatter or leaner than the other); the sample of wild lions averaged ~13% or so, they pointed out that captive big cats usually carry twice the amount of body fat in comparison to wild big cats.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2023 8:56:46 GMT
This site gives bodyfat content for some dogs plus wolf freshmarketpetfood.ca/blogs/news/body-fat-of-different-dog-breeds although I'm not sure how reliable it is. Greyhound they have at 7.9%. They say the wolf there carries 28.5% bodyfat. Whether true or not it causes me to consider that the larger cold-climate North-western timber wolves may very well carry more bodyfat percentage than other grey wolf subspecies. And probably the case with most of the larger colder-climate subspecies of whatever species. Rott being high is interesting but kind of also not surprising, makes sense and could explain their performance limitations which have somewhat bewildered and intrigued dog guys, including me, for ... Honestly one of the first performance observations I made as a small child. As an infant the tough dogs were bull terriers, "rockwheelers", Dobermans, Bullmastiffs and German shepherds right? At some point you become a slightly more astute "little boy", as opposed to a mindless infant, and you become interested in analysing the toughness level in dogs, and one of the first crushing realities I started noticing was something wasn't quite there with the legendary rock-wielder. I had to break it to my best friend and fellow enthusiast of tough animals that rockwielders were actually called Rottweilers, and also were kind of ass because much smaller bull terriers beat them up, Dobermans and gsds also not actually tough compared to bull terriers and Bullmastiffs and these other more exotic breeds I've been learning about over here like cane Corsos and tosas and presa canarios and Alano Espanols and etc. The explosiveness, strength, willingness to fight and ignore pain was lacking in the rott compared to dogs that look a lot like it but are just ... Different. And that difference in hindsight, physiologically, is puffier softer weaker muscles. Rotts are related to the bullbreeds, but are more primitive and rustic and utilitarian. Less high performance. Droving cattle over long distances, maybe getting rough with them when necessary, but first things first let's survive the journey and work long hours on little food and etc, so survivalist fat is gonna still need to be relied upon a bit. With the bull/mastiff lineage, one I consider to have descended from dogs like the Rottweiler, we start getting a more elite level of specialisation for performance. Their humans are actually meeting their other basic needs better and just asking them to perform combatively with more focus and commitment. This change changes their bodies in response. Ditto for the Greyhound vs more primitive survivalist sighthounds like the levriero meridionale. They're literally getting refined and shaved down for elite performance over the generations. The "puffy utilitarian muscle vs dense high performance muscle" has never been made so clear to be as now owning a Kelpie and a bull arab at the same time, both the same age. Your source is about feeding and yeah just how much more food the bull arab needs, even proportional to size, and then still the Kelpie is puffy and a little fat when the bull arab is lean and shredded, and that's with equal exercise. It's clear the bull arab is a more explosive high octane machine, but also clear the bull arab would starve to death much much faster if times became lean. Naturally with a wild dog like a wolf it's adaptations are going to have to compromise - we'd love to be explosive and fast and super strong, but we can't afford it, we need to be frugal and sensible with our adaptations and be prepared for lean times and long hours of hard work with with minimal sustenance. Rotts always struck me as weighty. Like giant blue heelers. Speaking of which I would like to see if blue heelers are similar to Rotts. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2023 12:48:38 GMT
Regarding body fat, I once came across a few graphs on it regarding bears and wolves, I put them together below. Grizzly bears from the central Arctic can be as low as 10.8% during summer and go up to 25.5% in autumn. In wolves it is even more extreme, a population in Nelchina went from 15.5% in spring down to 3.3% in summer. There is also an extensive work on big cat body fat but unfortunately the majority of the sample consists of captive big cats and only one sample of wild lions is used. The authors of said study showed that captive big cats more or less average the same amount of body fat (~24% if I remember correctly, no big cat species really stands out at being fatter or leaner than the other); the sample of wild lions averaged ~13% or so, they pointed out that captive big cats usually carry twice the amount of body fat in comparison to wild big cats. Cool info Undertaker. I was surprised at chimpanzee bodyfat which apparently is under 1% in wild males and 3 - 4% in wild females. Captive chimps still tend to maintain a fairly low bodyfat, although in some cases of captive chimps it can go up a fair bit I assume due to being fed similar to their fat human owners. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jan 7, 2023 21:45:03 GMT
Rott being high is interesting but kind of also not surprising, makes sense and could explain their performance limitations which have somewhat bewildered and intrigued dog guys, including me, for ... Honestly one of the first performance observations I made as a small child. As an infant the tough dogs were bull terriers, "rockwheelers", Dobermans, Bullmastiffs and German shepherds right? At some point you become a slightly more astute "little boy", as opposed to a mindless infant, and you become interested in analysing the toughness level in dogs, and one of the first crushing realities I started noticing was something wasn't quite there with the legendary rock-wielder. I had to break it to my best friend and fellow enthusiast of tough animals that rockwielders were actually called Rottweilers, and also were kind of ass because much smaller bull terriers beat them up, Dobermans and gsds also not actually tough compared to bull terriers and Bullmastiffs and these other more exotic breeds I've been learning about over here like cane Corsos and tosas and presa canarios and Alano Espanols and etc. The explosiveness, strength, willingness to fight and ignore pain was lacking in the rott compared to dogs that look a lot like it but are just ... Different. And that difference in hindsight, physiologically, is puffier softer weaker muscles. Rotts are related to the bullbreeds, but are more primitive and rustic and utilitarian. Less high performance. Droving cattle over long distances, maybe getting rough with them when necessary, but first things first let's survive the journey and work long hours on little food and etc, so survivalist fat is gonna still need to be relied upon a bit. With the bull/mastiff lineage, one I consider to have descended from dogs like the Rottweiler, we start getting a more elite level of specialisation for performance. Their humans are actually meeting their other basic needs better and just asking them to perform combatively with more focus and commitment. This change changes their bodies in response. Ditto for the Greyhound vs more primitive survivalist sighthounds like the levriero meridionale. They're literally getting refined and shaved down for elite performance over the generations. The "puffy utilitarian muscle vs dense high performance muscle" has never been made so clear to be as now owning a Kelpie and a bull arab at the same time, both the same age. Your source is about feeding and yeah just how much more food the bull arab needs, even proportional to size, and then still the Kelpie is puffy and a little fat when the bull arab is lean and shredded, and that's with equal exercise. It's clear the bull arab is a more explosive high octane machine, but also clear the bull arab would starve to death much much faster if times became lean. Naturally with a wild dog like a wolf it's adaptations are going to have to compromise - we'd love to be explosive and fast and super strong, but we can't afford it, we need to be frugal and sensible with our adaptations and be prepared for lean times and long hours of hard work with with minimal sustenance. Rotts always struck me as weighty. Like giant blue heelers. Speaking of which I would like to see if blue heelers are similar to Rotts. I think they are. I think blue heelers are like a good "lesson" in how herding dogs evolved into gripping dogs. Even though they aren't ACTUALLY the living "missing link", I think they represent what it was like (and to some extent they may partially be descended from the missing link). You can kind of easily imagine the evolution of spitz - herder - heelerish dog - rott - alano. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jan 7, 2023 22:18:05 GMT
Regarding body fat, I once came across a few graphs on it regarding bears and wolves, I put them together below. Grizzly bears from the central Arctic can be as low as 10.8% during summer and go up to 25.5% in autumn. In wolves it is even more extreme, a population in Nelchina went from 15.5% in spring down to 3.3% in summer. There is also an extensive work on big cat body fat but unfortunately the majority of the sample consists of captive big cats and only one sample of wild lions is used. The authors of said study showed that captive big cats more or less average the same amount of body fat (~24% if I remember correctly, no big cat species really stands out at being fatter or leaner than the other); the sample of wild lions averaged ~13% or so, they pointed out that captive big cats usually carry twice the amount of body fat in comparison to wild big cats. Cool info Undertaker. I was surprised at chimpanzee bodyfat which apparently is under 1% in wild males and 3 - 4% in wild females. Captive chimps still tend to maintain a fairly low bodyfat, although in some cases of captive chimps it can go up a fair bit I assume due to being fed similar to their fat human owners. Yes and every wild animal can (and some will) go down to literally zero at times, and die of starvation. So data could get tricky on that front. How much fat they are carrying at any given time is probably less relevant to us than how readily they put on and store fat and where they store it. Cats and gripping dogs and sighthounds seem to store theirs at mostly the subcutaneous level (if they store any - and sighthounds burn so hot they don't readily store much anywhere). So there's the animal underneath that is bones and organs and dense lean muscles, and then layered over the top of that is fat (how much depends on their condition) and skin. Wolves, herders and rottweilers store more fat in their muscles, then also will eventually put on subcutaneous fat as well. But I think basically there's a connection between slow-twitch muscles more readily taking on fat between the fibres, and the end result is even lean-looking animals, both with very little subcutaneous fat, which seem to be all in the same proportions taking up the same "cubic inches of air space", those with intramuscular fat are lighter than those without, and also softer to the touch. Here's a study that kind of correlates with what I'm trying to say here- linkBasically it's showing that women with fast twitch muscle are more prone to obesity, because the fat storage is all subcutaneous. They stay a lean hard bodied person underneath a layer of fat that grows quite readily and rapidly. Women with more slow twitch muscle will not gain weight as easily, partially because slow twitch muscle oxidises and readily uses the fat as fuel while working, but I think to do that it's also storing the fat within itself and this keeps the muscle kind of "doughy" and light. It seems you have hard working bodies, and high performance bodies. Dogs that had to work all day (or multiple days in a row) for long hours to get some monumental job done (like move cattle to town from 100 miles out in the wilderness), they had to have bodies that could store and use fat efficiently, and if it meant suffering a drop in explosiveness and speed and strength etc, who cares? On the extreme other end you have a greyhound that does nothing nearly all of the time but then suddenly has to explode with insane intensity for a brief period. Doesn't really need fat at all, and can't afford to waste space on it. It needs every cubic millimetre and every ounce of it's body firing at peak velocity for high performance. |
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Post by theundertaker45 on Jan 8, 2023 13:44:53 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2023 19:07:27 GMT
The largest verified Southern elephant seal compared to an average Tyrannosaurus rex.  |
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Post by Johnson on Jan 9, 2023 19:46:30 GMT
Here is an American Black Bear and a Syrian Brown Bear standing side by side.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2023 22:01:17 GMT
Turkey vulture and Bald eagle.  Attachments:
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2023 23:38:19 GMT
Turkey vulture and Bald eagle. Real or fake? |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jan 19, 2023 0:04:48 GMT
Would be a pretty random thing to fake.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2023 7:50:03 GMT
Turkey vulture and Bald eagle. Real or fake? Would be pretty hard to fake that Bolushi... |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2023 8:12:32 GMT
Would be pretty hard to fake that Bolushi... Well you are a photoshop expert, I can't sleep at night knowing I could be a victim of deceit. I need clarity. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2023 13:28:26 GMT
Would be pretty hard to fake that Bolushi... Well you are a photoshop expert, I can't sleep at night knowing I could be a victim of deceit. I need clarity. It's real. |
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