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Post by Bolushi on Dec 3, 2023 23:11:58 GMT
I agree with hardcastle, earth bulldogs or bull terriers Earth bulldog as in fell terrier? |
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Post by lincoln on Dec 4, 2023 1:01:00 GMT
I agree with hardcastle, earth bulldogs or bull terriers Earth bulldog as in fell terrier? Meant to say either, autocorrect |
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Post by Bolushi on Dec 4, 2023 22:48:11 GMT
For the record "earth bulldog" would be a cool name for the fell terriers. That is basically what they are IMO.
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Post by Hardcastle on Dec 5, 2023 0:11:32 GMT
For the record "earth bulldog" would be a cool name for the fell terriers. That is basically what they are IMO. I actually thought that was funny how your mistaken guess was so acutely astute. I know you are a bigger fan of jagds and patts than me, would you upgrade them? I would have a hard time arguing TBH. They are basically ALL combat. |
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Post by Bolushi on Dec 5, 2023 0:24:31 GMT
For the record "earth bulldog" would be a cool name for the fell terriers. That is basically what they are IMO. I actually thought that was funny how your mistaken guess was so acutely astute. I know you are a bigger fan of jagds and patts than me, would you upgrade them? I would have a hard time arguing TBH. They are basically ALL combat. Well in a broader sense I think the fell terriers are brought down by the 2 other members of their team, I don't know much about those other terriers but they seem inferior. Patt and Jagd I'd put them right up with the bull terriers tbh. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Dec 5, 2023 0:57:29 GMT
I actually thought that was funny how your mistaken guess was so acutely astute. I know you are a bigger fan of jagds and patts than me, would you upgrade them? I would have a hard time arguing TBH. They are basically ALL combat. Well in a broader sense I think the fell terriers are brought down by the 2 other members of their team, I don't know much about those other terriers but they seem inferior. Patt and Jagd I'd put them right up with the bull terriers tbh. I think I made a mistake with wheaten, terriers aren't a strong point for me. I just recall UK working terrier guys actually love them and think they are really hard, so I haphazardly tossed them in, but apparently they are more accurately in the Kerry blue category. The border though is really the same as the patt, at least the SBT to the patts apbt or something. It's loosely the ancestor of the patt, and then both are kind of the foundation of the jagd. Apparently the reason the border/patt had to be so hard is because it was impossible to dig them up in the rocky ground of the northern mountains, so they had to kill the prey completely by themselves underground. In the south the dirt is soft and easy and you can dig "the fight" up, and this is where the jrt comes from. I actually need to rearrange my terrier classifications. |
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Post by Bolushi on Dec 5, 2023 1:04:17 GMT
Borders are rugged, I know that much, my big question mark was on the wheaten.
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Post by Hardcastle on Dec 5, 2023 6:29:08 GMT
They are rugged as shit (despite appearances) but just aren't used in the same way and are a different dog. Kinda more generalist. In fact ... There's kind of a case for wheatens, Kerry blues, Irish terriers and wire fox terriers are all just like smaller Airedales. Perhaps can still be kept separate from Airedales, but they need to be together with each other. The jrt on the other hand is an "earth terrier", but just one that didn't need to be as hard as the more northern batch.
To complicate things further, the jagd is actually kind of like the wheaten and Kerry blue and even Airedale in application, it's just derived from the border/patt lineage.
I screwed it all up, and it's kind of tricky to get it right.
I'd still consider patt, jagd, border and wheaten the 4 hardest terriers, but that doesn't necessarily make them the same kind of terrier.
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Post by Hardcastle on Dec 5, 2023 8:17:12 GMT
Try this on for size, think I might have cracked the code (at least with terriers)
1. Bull terriers
2. Baiting Bulldogs
3. Hard Fell and hunting Terriers (patt, Border, jagd)
4. Night dogs
5. Farm Bulldogs
6. Boarhounds
7. Warhounds
8. Other Hunting terriers (Airedale, Wheaten, kerry blue, lakeland, Irish, bedlington, parson russel, wire fox)
9. Wolfhounds
10. Softer fell and rat terriers (majority of terriers; jrt, tenterfield, manchester, rat, roosevelt, cairn, australian)
11. Rustic LGDs (sarplaninac, kangal, central asian shepherd)
12. Staghounds and large hunting greys
13. Rugged Spitz (Akita, Karelian, Jindo, shiba)
14. Drovers (rottweiler, bouvier, giant schnauzer)
15. Curs
16. Continental herders
17. White LGDs (pyrenees, maremma, kuvasz, akbash)
18. Heelers
19. Curring spitz (huskies, laika, et al)
20. Otterhounds
21. Track Greyhounds
22. Bloodhounds (st Huberts/talbot)
23. Pointers (gsp, english, gwp, spanish) and generalist gun (Weimeraner, Viszla, Dalmatian)
24. Retrievers
25. Ancient world Sighthound (salukis, azawakhs, chippiparais, ibizan, etc)
26. Pariahs
27. Headers (collies/koolies/aus sheps/kelpies)
28. Foxhounds
29. Coonhounds
30. Dwarven scent (basset and dachshund)
31. Setters
32. Spaniels
33. Water dogs (poodle, portuguese)
34. Toys
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Post by Hardcastle on Dec 5, 2023 8:21:22 GMT
I'm not fully comfortable with fell terriers being over - night dogs, farm bulldogs, boarhounds and warhounds, the reality is I have seen jagds cur (they are basically used as curs on big boars and bears), but maybe I've never seen those other dogs on something equivalent to a bear 35 times their own weight. Maybe they would cur too. Though I know some boarhounds I have known would not. Some are truly dead game.
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Post by Hardcastle on Dec 5, 2023 9:48:29 GMT
I decided to move ancient sighthounds, actually UP. I mean they are designed to be extra predatory and kill things.
Retrievers in many ways don't deserve to be so high, it is actually by accident that they just are kind of combative. They have mastiff (retired gripping dog) in their ancestry, which I think was put in to make them more resilient to the cold icey water through sheer girth and bulk. They have basically had combativeness diminished and dulled ever since intentionally, but it just is retained to some extent and they have surprising weird feats of combativeness.
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Post by Bolushi on Dec 5, 2023 10:23:27 GMT
I'm not fully comfortable with fell terriers being over - night dogs, farm bulldogs, boarhounds and warhounds, the reality is I have seen jagds cur (they are basically used as curs on big boars and bears), but maybe I've never seen those other dogs on something equivalent to a bear 35 times their own weight. Maybe they would cur too. Though I know some boarhounds I have known would not. Some are truly dead game. I feel like most boarhounds (and anything that is not a gamebred pitbull, probably) would start questioning themselves if they were tasked with lugging a roaring T-Rex, which is what fell terriers are basically seeing. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Dec 5, 2023 10:34:42 GMT
I'm not fully comfortable with fell terriers being over - night dogs, farm bulldogs, boarhounds and warhounds, the reality is I have seen jagds cur (they are basically used as curs on big boars and bears), but maybe I've never seen those other dogs on something equivalent to a bear 35 times their own weight. Maybe they would cur too. Though I know some boarhounds I have known would not. Some are truly dead game. I feel like most boarhounds (and anything that is not a gamebred pitbull, probably) would start questioning themselves if they were tasked with lugging a roaring T-Rex, which is what fell terriers are basically seeing. I think you are probably right that most would. Ralph honestly wouldn't have. But hey probably the odd jagd/patt wouldn't either, and they probably get taken out. |
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