Most combat-specialized dog types?

[s]

1 - Bulldog
2 - Bull Terrier
3 - Boarhound
4 - Terrier?
5 -

[Hardcastle]

Interesting question.

It is debatable whether bulldog or bull terrier are number 1. Terrier infusion made bulldogs fight smarter and be better at killing, they used to say bull terriers lost some of their resilience and gameness and pain tolerance, but it seems they actually gained a lot of it back over the last century and a half with cajun rules testing for gameness.
High level combat-focused baiting bulldogs are also, I would say, extinct. Phased out by bull terriers. I think farm bulldogs are definitely a step behind bull terriers in combat. So I would be compelled to give bull terriers number 1.

I'm tossing up whether bullmastiff should be a category. It is debatable whether "farm bulldog" and "bullmastiff" are different things. They are kind of around the same size usually (historically, when they were working dogs) and were kind of interchangeable as well, but technically there is the farm bulldog for cattle and hogs and loose "guarding", and then separately the bullmastiff "night dog" which was an attack dog for humans. The latter might generally have been a little more combative, because it was kind of emphasised more, but it is debatable if the work could facilitate performance breeding as well as farm bulldog work could. When people were rougher and meaner bullmastiffs were probably more combative, but now attack-dog guys rarely test the mettle of their dogs properly.

Then we also have the boarhound vs warhound situation. Again a case of two dogs that are KIND OF the same animal, but one geared towards humans. Also made larger. I actually don't really think there would be a significant combat-specialisation difference. But if I had to choose I would say having more stamina and agility helps the boarhound more than size helps the warhound.

Boarhound/warhound vs farm bulldog/bullmastiff... to me that is actually really hard to say. Logically the latter SHOULD be more specialised for combat, but I don't often see the evidence for that. Sighthound DOES add more than just speed, there is ALSO a certain athleticism and killing nouse that adds to combativeness, while the speed/running simultaneously reduces combativeness.
I almost want to actually say they are the same.

The terrier definitely belongs and has actually heightened killer bloodlust over all the others, BUT can't withstand the same kind of punishment or effectively subjugate animals as large (even in proportion to its small body).

Maybe I would say (reserving the right to change my mind)

1. Bull terrier/baiting bulldog (tied)
2. Bullmastiff (aka night dog)
3. Farm Bulldog / Boarhound / Warhound (tied)
4. Terrier
5. Sighthound/lgd (tied despite being wildly different)
6. Cur

That is actually technically 10, so maybe I could split hairs and do the top 10 as follows-

1. Baiting bulldog (extinct)
2. Bull terrier
3. Night dog
4. Farm Bulldog
5. Boarhound
6. Warhound
7. Terrier
8. Sighthound
9. LGD
10. Cur

Runner ups-
11. Spitz
12. Continental herders

[Hardcastle]

Best surviving example of "Night dogs" would IMO be American Sentinels-


Historical night dog-

[Hardcastle]

The interesting thing to note, which we've touched on before, is tosa kind of doesn't actually fit in any of these categories. It is somewhere between bulldog/warhound/nightdog, but doesn't fit for any of them. Though I think they could readily be trained/conditioned to work as perfectly effective warhounds.

[Hardcastle]

Bolushi

Do you have any differing thoughts? I think my top 10 is highly debatable, would be curious what others think (tagging bolushi because he is most likely to think something). Kind of want the topic to keep going, very interesting. This is how dogs SHOULD be considered, rather than as breeds IMO. It is a very compelling angle of inquiry. 

[Bolushi]

Well I think the Spitz/Herder/LGD should be all in one category.
Cur probably a level up since they tend to all have a splash of bull.

[Hardcastle]

I could see that argument very easily. Its tough because we are combining different combat adaptations and then having to intuitively grade the value of that adaptation vs a different combat adaptation. So for example does higher durability or higher killing instinct add more weight to level of combat specialisation? I have often said LGDs are actually one of the LEAST combat specialised of all dogs, but when I think about their defense and power and durability and etc I start changing my tune a little, but indeed may have over-corrected with my top 10...

I could see an argument for spitz even being 9 when I consider the scrappier variants, then cur at 10, then LGD and continental herder about level as runners up. Definitely very flexible on the lower end, and also pretty flexible throughout, including number 1. Bull terrier at number 1 is certainly easy to argue.

[Hardcastle]

I also might be compelled to include "heeler" as potentially in this mix with the lower contenders as well.

[Hardcastle]

Night dog, farm bulldog, boarhound and warhound spread over 4 places but realistically are all about neck and neck, individual variation here is way more significant than any gap between these types.

[s]

Dec 1, 2023 18:01:34 GMT Hardcastle said:

Interesting question.

It is debatable whether bulldog or bull terrier are number 1. Terrier infusion made bulldogs fight smarter and be better at killing, they used to say bull terriers lost some of their resilience and gameness and pain tolerance, but it seems they actually gained a lot of it back over the last century and a half with cajun rules testing for gameness.
High level combat-focused baiting bulldogs are also, I would say, extinct. Phased out by bull terriers. I think farm bulldogs are definitely a step behind bull terriers in combat. So I would be compelled to give bull terriers number 1.

I'm tossing up whether bullmastiff should be a category. It is debatable whether "farm bulldog" and "bullmastiff" are different things. They are kind of around the same size usually (historically, when they were working dogs) and were kind of interchangeable as well, but technically there is the farm bulldog for cattle and hogs and loose "guarding", and then separately the bullmastiff "night dog" which was an attack dog for humans. The latter might generally have been a little more combative, because it was kind of emphasised more, but it is debatable if the work could facilitate performance breeding as well as farm bulldog work could. When people were rougher and meaner bullmastiffs were probably more combative, but now attack-dog guys rarely test the mettle of their dogs properly.

Then we also have the boarhound vs warhound situation. Again a case of two dogs that are KIND OF the same animal, but one geared towards humans. Also made larger. I actually don't really think there would be a significant combat-specialisation difference. But if I had to choose I would say having more stamina and agility helps the boarhound more than size helps the warhound.

Boarhound/warhound vs farm bulldog/bullmastiff... to me that is actually really hard to say. Logically the latter SHOULD be more specialised for combat, but I don't often see the evidence for that. Sighthound DOES add more than just speed, there is ALSO a certain athleticism and killing nouse that adds to combativeness, while the speed/running simultaneously reduces combativeness.
I almost want to actually say they are the same.

The terrier definitely belongs and has actually heightened killer bloodlust over all the others, BUT can't withstand the same kind of punishment or effectively subjugate animals as large (even in proportion to its small body).

Maybe I would say (reserving the right to change my mind)

1. Bull terrier/baiting bulldog (tied)
2. Bullmastiff (aka night dog)
3. Farm Bulldog / Boarhound / Warhound (tied)
4. Terrier
5. Sighthound/lgd (tied despite being wildly different)
6. Cur

That is actually technically 10, so maybe I could split hairs and do the top 10 as follows-

1. Baiting bulldog (extinct)
2. Bull terrier
3. Night dog
4. Farm Bulldog
5. Boarhound
6. Warhound
7. Terrier
8. Sighthound
9. LGD
10. Cur

Runner ups-
11. Spitz
12. Continental herders

You said there are 20 dog "types", can you make a ranking of all 20 from most to least combat-specialized? I guess toy is probably the least

[Hardcastle]

Maybe went a little crazy, also did some rearranging-

1. Bull terriers
2. Baiting Bulldogs
3. Night dogs
4. Farm Bulldogs
5. Boarhounds
6. Warhounds
7. Fell Terriers (patt, Jagd, Border, Wheaten)
8. Wolfhounds
9. Otter terriers (Airedale)
10. Fox terriers (fox terrier, kerry blue, lakeland, bedlington, parson russel)
11. Rat Terriers (majority of terriers including jrt, mini fox, cairn)
12. Rustic LGDs (sarplaninac, kangal, central asian shepherd)
13. Staghounds and large hunting greys
14. Rugged Spitz (Akita, Karelian, Jindo, shiba)
15. Drovers (rottweiler, bouvier, giant schnauzer)
16. Curs
17. Continental herders
18. White LGDs (pyrenees, maremma, kuvasz, akbash)
19. Heelers
20. Curring spitz (huskies, laika, et al)
21. Otterhounds
22. Track Greyhounds
23. Bloodhounds (st Huberts/talbot)
24. Pointers and generalist gun (Weimeraner, Viszla, Dalmatian)
25. Retrievers
26. Headers (collies/kelpies)
27. Pariahs
28. Ancient world Sighthound (salukis and azawakhs and chippiparais and etc)
29. Foxhounds
30. Coonhounds
31. Setters
32. Spaniels
33. Water dogs (poodle, portuguese)
34. Toys

[Hardcastle]

edited since you liked s
Thought about it and raised rustic LGDs

[s]

Dec 2, 2023 18:41:55 GMT Hardcastle said:

edited since you liked s
Thought about it and raised rustic LGDs

Ok, biggest disagreement is probably White LGD being so low. Don't know much about other breeds but Great Pyrinees are pretty strong and were the favorite dog of the French nobility for a reason

[Hardcastle]

Editted again, this time because I felt my bias for hunting greyhounds/staghounds had them too high.

White LGDs.... Yeah, maybe I'll change that, I am kind of picturing the softest of the soft, though they ARE highly averse to fighting. The french are also notoriously wussy.

[s]

I would place white LGDs somewhere between rustic LGD and continental herder