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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Aug 22, 2023 17:51:08 GMT
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Aug 22, 2023 17:56:51 GMT
We should have had this thread a long time ago. Don't really have much to say here, so I’ll let you guys handle it and drop your thoughts. I think the jaguar has a good chance at parity, could possibly win even with a very slight weight disadvantage. I don’t have much information on black bear weights, (it varies from place to place, and I don't know which regions have which weight ranges) so somebody help me out since I can't structure this thread very accurately. Everyone? Hardcastle Bolushi lincoln @ling grippingwhiteness @bisonking kevin grampa CoolJohnson Methane @espinola Hafstanni oldgreengrolar Ransik |
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kevin
Ruminant
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Post by kevin on Aug 22, 2023 18:11:11 GMT
American Black bears average 120 kg if you take all populations into account. So we'd basically need a large male pantanal Jag against the bear.
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Post by Bolushi on Aug 22, 2023 18:27:55 GMT
The ABB is at times quite unconvincing, combatively. They are prey for jaguars, El Jefe killed one.
A prime male black bear vs prime male jaguar at parity I say jag, but at average weights probably bear. Probably... I would not be surprised if I were disappointed.
I actually think a big male cougar could also beat some small ABBs, likewise with leopard. Some big dogs would be an issue too. ABBs take a lot of Ls.
This is the best cat an ABB can actually kill IMO.
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Post by CoolJohnson on Aug 22, 2023 19:36:26 GMT
Jaguar win at parity.
Black bear would have the edge at larger weights.
I would not dismiss the bear's grappling skills. While this video could be staged, it does show how young bears are good at grappling.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2023 19:50:59 GMT
The ABB is at times quite unconvincing, combatively. They are prey for jaguars, El Jefe killed one. A prime male black bear vs prime male jaguar at parity I say jag, but at average weights probably bear. Probably... I would not be surprised if I were disappointed. I actually think a big male cougar could also beat some small ABBs, likewise with leopard. Some big dogs would be an issue too. ABBs take a lot of Ls. This is the best cat an ABB can actually kill IMO.
“A young adult bear is foraging around, El Jefe explodes from ambush, knocks him on his ass, crushes his skull, and then feeds on him. But we need to test the scat. It could be mountain lion. Those hairs might not be bear.”
www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/return-great-american-jaguar-180960443/
"the bear skeleton likely belonged to a young adult sow."
www.earthtouchnews.com/natural-world/predator-vs-prey/americas-celebrity-jaguar-el-jefe-is-a-bear-hunter/
This is the only case that is known by the way.
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Post by grampa on Aug 22, 2023 19:52:51 GMT
We should have had this thread a long time ago. Don't really have much to say here, so I’ll let you guys handle it and drop your thoughts. I think the jaguar has a good chance at parity, could possibly win even with a very slight weight disadvantage. I don’t have much information on black bear weights, (it varies from place to place, and I don't know which regions have which weight ranges) so somebody help me out since I can't structure this thread very accurately. Everyone? Hardcastle Bolushi lincoln @ling grippingwhiteness @bisonking kevin grampa CoolJohnson Methane @espinola Hafstanni oldgreengrolar Ransik We need a voting poll here  |
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Post by grampa on Aug 22, 2023 19:56:32 GMT
American black bear - sow: 162.13 pounds
American black bear - boar: 272.03 pounds
There are 16 sub-species of American black bears:
1- Ursus americanus altifrontalis - Olympic black bear.
2- Ursus americanus amblyceps - New Mexico black bear.
3- Ursus americanus americanus - Eastern black bear.
4- Ursus americanus californiensis - California black bear.
5- Ursus americanus carlottae - Haida Gwaii black bear, Queen Charlotte Islands black bear.
6- Ursus americanus cinnamomum - Cinnamon bear.
7- Ursus americanus emmonsii - Glacier bear ( blue bear ).
8- Ursus americanus eremicus - East Mexican black bear.
9- Ursus americanus floridanus - Florida black bear.
10- Ursus americanus hamiltoni - Newfoundland black bear.
11- Ursus americanus kermodei - Kermode bear ( spirit bear ).
12- Ursus americanus luteolus - Louisiana black bear.
13- Ursus americanus machetes - West Mexican black bear.
14- Ursus americanus perniger - Kenai black bear.
15- Ursus americanus pugnax - Dall Island black bear.
16- Ursus americanus vancouveri - Vancouver Island black bear.
_________________________
What is the average weight of a prime male jaguar?
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Aug 22, 2023 20:06:55 GMT
We should have had this thread a long time ago. Don't really have much to say here, so I’ll let you guys handle it and drop your thoughts. I think the jaguar has a good chance at parity, could possibly win even with a very slight weight disadvantage. I don’t have much information on black bear weights, (it varies from place to place, and I don't know which regions have which weight ranges) so somebody help me out since I can't structure this thread very accurately. Everyone? Hardcastle Bolushi lincoln @ling grippingwhiteness @bisonking kevin grampa CoolJohnson Methane @espinola Hafstanni oldgreengrolar Ransik We need a voting poll here Okay. I will see about that |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Aug 22, 2023 20:11:56 GMT
It's done grampa . Feel free to vote. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2023 20:43:52 GMT
It's done grampa . Feel free to vote. Have you joined Bestiary, Supercat? |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Aug 22, 2023 21:11:17 GMT
@ling
Yes, I have.
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Post by grampa on Aug 22, 2023 22:37:43 GMT
It's done grampa . Feel free to vote. How much does the average prime male jaguar weigh? |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Aug 22, 2023 23:00:43 GMT
It's done grampa . Feel free to vote. How much does the average prime male jaguar weigh? According to a paper on ResearchGate, male jaguars from the Venezuelan Llanos and the Brazilian Pantanal average 104.5 kg and 99.5 kg respectively (both are regions in South America where jaguars reach their largest mass) :  Taken From: Jaguar conservation in Venezuela against the backdrop of current knowledge on its biology and evolution (Page 3 on the scroll) : www.researchgate.net/publication/220033215 |
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Post by Hardcastle on Aug 22, 2023 23:44:57 GMT
It's funny how one isolated case can be so psychologically persuasive. Even my first knee jerk reaction to the topic was "Jaguar... the el jefe thing" but that's really not good logic. Its one case of predation, very limited information, it really doesn't mean anything. There are reasons that trivial little case "rings true" so readily though, the american black bear just seems to be very "meek" for some reason, and the Jaguar seems kind of especially formidable proportionately and also its psyche seems to be bold and "problem solvey". It wades up to many different strange varieties of prey animal, face to face, and "figures them out". I've always felt this nature bodes well for the jaguar in a fight, vs the more extremely calculated and plotting cats who have more traditional prey (deer or antelope) as their main staple which they assassinate by ambush very quickly in a set way. The jaguar seems more willing to role with the punches and try and find a way through a melee skirmish to figure out a victory, and that is much more like fighting rather than just killing. Even the gif I posted of a peccary beating up a jaguar, is actually impressive in a way from the jaguar, that its boldly wading into a "fight" and trying to figure out a solution to the peccary.  I've seen a few things like this from jaguars, a trend, of them just being a little more relaxed and calm with face to face confrontations and taking the time to think about a path to victory. Rather than JUST epic emphatic ambush assault, and if it fails run away immediately. Jaguars have odder prey to deal with - anacondas, caiman, turtles, armadillos, giant anteaters, etc etc, where it behooves them to be more measured and thoughtful, and I see this translating to fight success better than the elite ambush assassins. I know jaguars ambush and assassinate as well, but I feel like leopards and pumas are a "10" at it, and jaguars are like a 7, and often its not their appropriate course of action. So all in all, IF there was ever a fight where I'd favour a cat over a bear at parity, this would be the one, but still not totally convinced. |
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