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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2023 0:01:23 GMT
One very important factor is which black bear subspecies or population is being used, there are very large black bears, the largest is the Pennsylvania population of the Eastern black bear (Ursus americanus americanus) which averages 402 lbs, that is double the weight of the largest jaguar population, the Pantanal jaguar. So you talked about parity, a 200 lb black bear from Pennsylvania would be a subadult male or a female, so sure as hell the jaguar would win there (at parity). At averages though, the black bear would win more often than not.
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Post by grampa on Aug 23, 2023 5:23:21 GMT
Well; I'm still not seeing an average weight for the jaguar. If we are going to use only the largest jaguars, then we should go by the same rule with the black bear. Any jaguar fans here?
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Post by Hardcastle on Aug 23, 2023 6:50:43 GMT
Max weights is a no brainer, as I believe some black bears can be 800+ lbs or something.
The average weight for a mature male pantanal Jaguar is around 200-220 lbs. Max weight may approach 300 lbs (largest on record might be 340 or something).
I'm always more compelled to try and get a parity match if possible. That is what intrigues me more. Luckily adult male black bears vary so much you can get a parity match with a puma, leopard, jaguar or lion or tiger.
Bear fans can tend to get a little tense about the prospect of parity because they'd rather talk about the bulk and size advantage of their brauny protagonist, but I think this is a misplaced reservation, especially against cats. As far as I can tell they beat the crap out of cats at parity, and even well under parity, like the sloth and sun bear situations against the tiger.
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Post by grippingwhiteness on Aug 23, 2023 10:45:48 GMT
Not sure on the sex and age of the black bear, but a Mexican jaguar named El Jefe became a specialised black bear killer but I assume that it targeted females , subadult and cubs, will have to verify that and ask it to Balam.
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Post by grippingwhiteness on Aug 23, 2023 10:50:40 GMT
Max weights is a no brainer, as I believe some black bears can be 800+ lbs or something. The average weight for a mature male pantanal Jaguar is around 200-220 lbs. Max weight may approach 300 lbs (largest on record might be 340 or something). I'm always more compelled to try and get a parity match if possible. That is what intrigues me more. Luckily adult male black bears vary so much you can get a parity match with a puma, leopard, jaguar or lion or tiger. Bear fans can tend to get a little tense about the prospect of parity because they'd rather talk about the bulk and size advantage of their brauny protagonist, but I think this is a misplaced reservation, especially against cats. As far as I can tell they beat the crap out of cats at parity, and even well under parity, like the sloth and sun bear situations against the tiger. Pantanal male Jaguars actually average 238 lbs (108 kg) with a sample that includes subadult and unhealthy males, the true average from adult healthy males is likely in the 246-250 lb range. Llanos Jaguars also average 230-240 lbs aswell. 200-220 lb is below average from them and from recent captures no male was below the 220 lb mark. Funny is how the largest outlier leopards and cougars are in the 200-220 lb range with 220-230 lbs being their extreme max barrier and it's still not as large as the average Pantanal jaguar sample including unhealthy and not fully adult males. |
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Post by Ransik on Aug 23, 2023 11:32:26 GMT
Male American black bear takes it due the size advantage. Just as it goes with Ussuri brown bear against Siberian tiger, the biggest Jaguar defeats female and young bears but it will lose to an adult bear more often than not. El Jefe probably killed only females and young bears and these bears probably never saw any jaguar before so they weren't watchful enough.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2023 11:38:01 GMT
Not sure on the sex and age of the black bear, but a Mexican jaguar named El Jefe became a specialised black bear killer but I assume that it targeted females , subadult and cubs, will have to verify that and ask it to Balam.
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Post by grippingwhiteness on Aug 23, 2023 11:46:14 GMT
Male American black bear takes it due the size advantage. Just as it goes with Ussuri brown bear against Siberian tiger, the biggest Jaguar defeats female and young bears but it will lose to an adult bear more often than not. El Jefe probably killed only females and young bears and these bears probably never saw any jaguar before so they weren't watchful enough. El jefe killed an adult sow as here's the remaining skull of it.  The fact is that El jefe is also the only existing jaguar in all that territory, the only remaining one in that entire country. You'll never see jaguars interacting with such bears elsewhere, when El Jefe will die this overlap will he temporarily "extinct". |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2023 11:48:07 GMT
Male American black bear takes it due the size advantage. Just as it goes with Ussuri brown bear against Siberian tiger, the biggest Jaguar defeats female and young bears but it will lose to an adult bear more often than not. El Jefe probably killed only females and young bears and these bears probably never saw any jaguar before so they weren't watchful enough. El jefe killed an adult sow as here's the remaining skull of it. View AttachmentThe fact is that El jefe is also the only existing jaguar in all that territory, the only remaining one in that entire country. You'll never see jaguars interacting with such bears elsewhere, when El Jefe will die this overlap will he temporarily "extinct". Do you know how jaguars do against Andean bears? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2023 11:51:06 GMT
El jefe killed an adult sow as here's the remaining skull of it. View AttachmentThe fact is that El jefe is also the only existing jaguar in all that territory, the only remaining one in that entire country. You'll never see jaguars interacting with such bears elsewhere, when El Jefe will die this overlap will he temporarily "extinct". Do you know how jaguars do against Andean bears? Absolutely 0 known interactions. One source though claims andean bears avoid jaguars, that's all that exists. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2023 11:51:29 GMT
Do you know how jaguars do against Andean bears? Absolutely 0 known interactions. One source though claims andean bears avoid jaguars, that's all that exists. Quite surprising tbh. |
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Post by grippingwhiteness on Aug 23, 2023 11:51:54 GMT
Not sure on the sex and age of the black bear, but a Mexican jaguar named El Jefe became a specialised black bear killer but I assume that it targeted females , subadult and cubs, will have to verify that and ask it to Balam.
Which is what I just said. El jefe killed an young adult sow, sow of this size are generally 100-170 lbs and El Jefe was no large jaguar aswell by the way, looked to be roughly 130-150 lbs   |
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Post by Ransik on Aug 23, 2023 11:54:27 GMT
Male American black bear takes it due the size advantage. Just as it goes with Ussuri brown bear against Siberian tiger, the biggest Jaguar defeats female and young bears but it will lose to an adult bear more often than not. El Jefe probably killed only females and young bears and these bears probably never saw any jaguar before so they weren't watchful enough. El jefe killed an adult sow as here's the remaining skull of it. View AttachmentThe fact is that El jefe is also the only existing jaguar in all that territory, the only remaining one in that entire country. You'll never see jaguars interacting with such bears elsewhere, when El Jefe will die this overlap will he temporarily "extinct". Yes females and young bears but as there are no cases for jaguars killing male bears and knowing that the males have size advantage even over the largest jaguars it's safe to say male American black bear > jaguar. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2023 11:59:03 GMT
Read my post at page #1, El Jefe only killed 1 young adult female black bear by ambush. And that remains the only case in history that we know of. So only 1, no specialization there.
Which is what I just said. El jefe killed an young adult sow, sow of this size are generally 100-170 lbs and El Jefe was no large jaguar aswell by the way, looked to be roughly 130-150 lbs View AttachmentView AttachmentWell you said it "specialized" in bears, which would mean a few bears, but it was just 1. Anyhow, a jaguar killing a female bear by ambush doesn't equate to one defeating a male bear in a face to face confrontation. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Aug 23, 2023 12:03:45 GMT
Do you know how jaguars do against Andean bears? Absolutely 0 known interactions. One source though claims andean bears avoid jaguars, that's all that exists. If I was a Jaguar fan (I mean I am, but not hardcore) I might point to the distribution of the spectacled bear and the american black bear and suggest that they seem to be generally avoiding jaguars, like Jaguars are limiting their distribution. Possibly. |
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