Cougar vs American bison

[Deleted]

Ok so, why dont we show the viewers very recent studies huh?


BISON IS NOT A PREY ITEM FOR COUGARS


BOOK: Yellowstone Cougars: Ecology before and during Wolf Restoration


"Although bison numbered 2000-4000 and we encountered them in low-elevation cougar habitat-such as this one pictured near the Junction of Blacktail Deer Creek and the Yellowstone River-they were not cougar prey during the pre-wolf or during wolf studies.




books.google.com.ar/books?id=hkm9DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA19&dq=Bison+(Bison+bison)+numbered+#v=onepage&q=Bison%20(Bison%20bison)%20numbered&f=false


OFFICIAL DATA FROM YELLOWSTONE:

COUGAR KILLS IN YELLOWSTONE NATIONAL PARK IN 3 DIFFERENT TIME PERIODS. NOT EVEN A BISON CALF WAS KILLED.


Species composition of cougar-killed prey, including primary ungulate prey species and other prey across three research phases (phase I: 1987–1993; phase II: 1998–2004; and phase III: 2014–2019; sample sizes of kills detected are indicated in parentheses).


www.nps.gov/yell/learn/nature/cougar.htm


DAMN....NO BISONS KILLED AGAIN? I GUESS WE STILL HAVE ZERO CASES, LMFAO.

[Deleted]

THE BISON IS THE ONLY POTENTIAL SPECIES INVULNERABLE TO PUMA PREDATION.





books.google.com.ar/books?id=hzNBCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA160&dq=Puma%20kills%20bison&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiT1OO358v3AhW7LrkGHXDDChcQ6AF6BAgHEAM#v=onepage&q=Puma%20kills%20bison&f=false

ADULT BISON FEAR NO PREDATOR, BUT SMALL CALVES ARE THREATENED BY MOST LARGER CARNIVORES.



books.google.com.ar/books?id=9qh7BAAAQBAJ&pg=PA92&dq=bison%20fear%20no%20animal&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjul93g3qD3AhWvqJUCHWk5DD8Q6AF6BAgDEAM#v=onepage&q=bison%20fear%20no%20animal&f=false

Its huge frame, great hump, massive chest, thick neck and sharp horns combined to make it almost invincible..Even the most savage predator would think twice before tackling a healthy adult bison.



books.google.com.ar/books?id=behZDAAAQBAJ&pg=PT7&dq=Its%20huge%20frame#v=onepage&q=Its%20huge%20frame&f=false

[Deleted]

Large Mammals of the Rocky Mountains, by hunter and naturalist Jack Ballard.


The list of predators in North America capable of killing bison is very short. Under normal cirmcunstances only gray wolves and grizzly bears can successfully prey upon adult bison. Predation attempts by grizzly bears on adult animals are very rare. Black bears, mountain lions, and coyotes have the ability to kill bison in their first few months of life, but it would be highly abnormal for these predators to target an adult or even yearling bison.


"The massive size of adult bison (especially bulls) makes them highly immune to most predators."






books.google.com.ar/books?id=E0VKDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA196&dq=Black+bears#v=onepage&q=Black%20bears&f=false

[Deleted]

"Pumas, or cougars, hunt alone and risk tackling only very young or sickly bison."

What do we expect from a cougar if even SMILODONS hunted only young bison:

"Smilodon, the prehistoric hunter would have been a serious threat to young bison."





books.google.com.ar/books?id=qHKm5TdBG0oC&pg=PA32&dq=pumas%20or%20cougars%20hunt%20alone%20and%20risk%20tackling%20only%20very%20young&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwii8f7bzOGAAxVVs5UCHSPpCIQQ6AF6BAgFEAM#v=onepage&q=pumas%20or%20cougars%20hunt%20alone%20and%20risk%20tackling%20only%20very%20young&f=false

[Deleted]

Aug 14, 2023 15:24:57 GMT PumAcinonyx SuperCat said:

In Conclusion 


The cougar (Puma concolor) truly is fully capable of killing healthy, and non-compromised adult American bison (Bison bison). It is what they are designed for, and something they will instinctively begin to do when




they (cougars) are in the right size range, 


the bison are in the weight multiple factor range at which other big cats have proven themselves proficient at killing wild cattle species, 

Not bison no. Huge grizzlies very rarely (mostly sick), wolf packs, rarely and mostly sick. Pumas? Not i 1 million years.


and they (cougars) are given or afforded a proper work environment where the restraints that bind them from expressing their full potential are eliminated. 



Not only that, but killing healthy adult bison is something they are far better at doing than any other land carnivore in the whole of North America, whether wolves, black bears, or brown bears. They are undisputedly the ULTIMATE bison-killing machine in the entirety of North America. 




And we all, will be nothing but wise to know and understand that: 




Embrace Wisdom!

[Deleted]

As for a face to face fight, i think you admitted a bison would stomp basically everytime correct? So no need for me to waste time and list each other's advantages and disadvantages. Bison decimantes the coward cat 10/10 times, you can bet you bottom dollar on that. Hell, i dont even think 3 pumas working together would be able to win, the bison would just trash all 3. 

[Hardcastle]

Appreciating the passion from both sides... lol.
I gotta say I've been meaning to weigh in on this, its just a little daunting because I can see supercat is primed and ready to go hard.

I will say I don't believe pumas can realistically prey on healthy bison, the fact they don't to me means they can't, even if the reason they refrain is because there is easier prey and its not wise or whatever, the end result is still evolving for millions of years NOT preying on Bison, and that is the animal they are adapted to be - one who doesn't prey on bison. The "not worth the risk" excuse has always been a self-sabotaging one. If an animal avoids doing something, for any justified reason or whatever, the end result is still that it doesn't do that thing and if it consistently is avoiding doing that thing over generations it follows that it can't. It needs to do it to have that ability be part of its natural selection and thus hone the animal into something that can do said thing.

Outlier cases aren't the demolishing evidence they are often used as. They're held up as basically the strongest argument when they are in reality the weakest. I'm not sure these puma on bison cases are reliable anyway, but even benefit of the doubt and believing it. Lets say hypothetically there were really 3 scientifically verified cases of pumas killing adult bison. That wouldn't actually mean anything to me. 3? Where's the rest? Why aren't they attacking bison more? Why are they avoiding bison and refraining from attacking them? Given this clear and stark aversion, I'm immediately dubious of these cases which are evidently very exceptional. It's like if you heard that a kid beat michael jordan in a game of basketball, knowing that basically children can't beat Michael Jordan at basketball. The rational thing to do is to question why, what happened, what were the circumstances of this anomalous 1 on 1 basketball game, we can be pretty confident it was not a normal game on an even playing field.

[Deleted]

I will say I don't believe pumas can realistically prey on healthy bison, the fact they don't to me means they can't,

That's correct. As you can see, those are the only 3 cases in history that we know of (those 3 he posted), which are not even scientifically proven. All 3 from 100 to 200 years ago. Guess what though? None of 3 bisons even died, that's the funny part about this, they were just attacked, one was a female that we know of, and most likely another one was as well. Look at what i posted, the Yellowstone official data, not a bison killed by a puma in 19 years of study. 

This kid "supercat" is nothing but a puma loving fag, ha ha ha, and you know this, everyone can see this. If a puma attacked a full grown bison, even by ambush, it still wouldn't stand a chance, the bison would just dislodge and stomp the life out of the kitty IF the puma stayed to fight, which me and you know he wouldn't.

Another point is, by him posting 3 cases of pumas attacking bisons, he inadvertently proved that cougars may attack bison in other events but then run away (AKA FORFEIT).  A bison's head is bigger than the whole fucking puma:

[Deleted]

You were really very aggressive and rude in your response, so trust me when I tell you that I will not go easy on you, and in the end, if you don't wise up, you may regret that you ever posted on this thread.

Wow, very scared.

Give me a few hours, and I will VERY THOROUGHLY debunk ALL your stupid and meaningless posts. Incidentally, there is virtually NOTHING you have posted that I have not seen before. I have seen VIRTUALLY all your sources, and they have ZERO relevance in this topic.

Oh ok, so i guess you will show us recent scientific data showing pumas kill bisons correct? Unless you do, you have zero kid, absolutely nothing. You just have 3 accounts from 200 years ago, which were debunked. 

So, we still have zero accounts of pumas killing bisons. 

Fortunatelly, no one here believes your claims, sure as hell not Hardcastle. Keep trying.

[Deleted]

Sure kid, still nothing? No scientific accounts? Great.

Hardcastle, and no one else gives a fuck what you claim.

You have been exposed.

[Deleted]

So, don't even think you can make me feel anything by saying that I haven't convinced Hardcastle. Convincing him is NOT my aim. He has been trying for eons to reason with the guys on Carnivora, but they don't listen. Doesn't make him wrong.

Your aim is to convince the majority of people, that is why you post, also on Quora, but guess what? Most people with a half of brain understand that a bull bison is out of range for a puma, hell, bull bison is out of range for all predators, even smilodons. Dont you understand this? All scientific data points to this. 

Let me ask you, so according to you, by ambush, out of 10 ambushes, how many times would a puma kill a bull bison?

Works the same way with me and him. In fact you seem to be the one who takes refuge in the fact that Hardcastle agrees with you. And that's because you're a living, breathing, wasting, non-value adding soul who is insecure and without any self identity.

No one agrees with you. The person who convinces the MAJORITY wins, simple as this.

Dont be mad bro, science disproves you. Not my fault.

[Deleted]

Oh nice, still no scientific sources to back up your claims? Still no bisons killed? Shit. You love to bla bla bla about pumas, all you have are 3 200 year old accounts (which are valid), yet the bisons didn't die, and one was a female. Common sense is what you are lacking. Those 3 pumas must had been very hungry by the way.

[Deleted]

Listen, i really cant be wasting much time here, i already said and posted basically all i have, you want to believe a puma can kill a bull bison by ambush? Go ahead, that's on you. There is nothing we can do to convince you otherwise. I have learned from years of debating that no one changes anybodys mind, no matter what is said or posted. You are a puma fan and you will believe what you want to believe no matter what. Just know that reality is not what you think it is. So here we will just to around and around in circles. Am not going to change your mind, you agree? And you will not change mine, you agree? Debating is just a waste of time, and i have lost all patience, that is why i come of aggressive. We will get nowhere. But now at least i posted the other side so the public can decide.

[Hardcastle]

I'm sure supercat knows full well he is going completely against me with his cougar vs bison stance, I have written a lot about cougars not only being unable to kill bison but also being unable to kill cattle and boars. So he is not shying away from me at all, in fact I have been "the bitch" in this situation by not debating him when he is basically calling me out. I've been putting off stepping up to the plate, procrastinating even, I guess one could say. A "here we go again" feeling looming over my head.

But full credit to supercat for asserting his position, and pretty damn strongly. I don't agree, but respect it nevertheless.

I don't want to ban calling eachother "fags", it just goes against my ethos in general where calling a guy a fag is a fundamental god-given right as far as I'm concerned, BUT I do feel like there is an unnecessarily high level of vitriol or venom in the early stages of this debate. I get it, but also... sigh... we're just never gonna get anywhere if this is how we start.

One thing I might hand to supercat... 1 on 1, healthy vs healthy, maybe the mountain lion really IS the closest thing to a bison killer out of north America's predators. But only because none of north america's extant predators are bison killers. I don't believe a wolf can actually take on a healthy bull bison, or bother it at all, and nor do I believe a brown bear can. I also don't believe a mountain lion can. HOWEVER... maybe, if we HAVE to pick one who is most likely to maybe defy the odds and kill a healthy adult bull bison 1 on 1, I dunno maybe it is a 220 lbs tom cougar, even though it can't actually do it. It may be closest I guess?

[Hardcastle]

Aug 19, 2023 14:00:50 GMT @bisonking said:

Listen, i really cant be wasting much time here, i already said and posted basically all i have, you want to believe a puma can kill a bull bison by ambush? Go ahead, that's on you. There is nothing we can do to convince you otherwise. I have learned from years of debating that no one changes anybodys mind, no matter what is said or posted. You are a puma fan and you will believe what you want to believe no matter what. Just know that reality is not what you think it is. So here we will just to around and around in circles. Am not going to change your mind, you agree? And you will not change mine, you agree? Debating is just a waste of time, and i have lost all patience, that is why i come of aggressive. We will get nowhere. But now at least i posted the other side so the public can decide.

Oh you can change people's minds... you just can't change the mind of the guy you are directly calling a fag. Its the onlookers who are somewhat on the fence. I definitely totally shifted the perception of domestic dogs on carnivora forum while I was there, and then it reverted back to shit when I was gone. The bulk of people aren't totally convinced one way or another, a small percentage of vocal people are pleading cases while the majority um and aahhh over it. This isn't to say they are unbiased, far from it, but as long as they haven't got themselves embroiled into some kind of ego-clash they may still be open minded.