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Post by grippingwhiteness on Aug 12, 2023 17:03:50 GMT
So I'll start this - note that this is a debate section so everyone is free to post their own opinions (to which I can either agree to disagree or just agree, it's up to you lol). Note that I've listed many abbreviations here so I'll write up instructions to understand them better. LW = "Light weight", for the simple reason we all know which is that the more the weight the less the movement which leads to these specific dog breed being exceptionally powerful when lightweight and exceptionally scheißig when heavy GB = "Game bred", this instinct required historically and still requires changing the dog's perception of other dogs to be prey or vermin, very high prey drive in the dog's mentality which leads to a will of success at all costs no matter what goes wrong. BT = "Boar trained" , no need to explain.BB = "Bull baiting"HT = "Hunting Trained"1) LW Korean Tosa Inu 2) LW Bully Kutta, GB Apbt 3) Bandog crosses, American Bulldog 4) GB Gull Terrier/EBT, Gull Dong 5) BT Dogo argentino, BT Bull Arab, BT/BB Presa Canario 6) HT Boerboel, BT O'Halloran Hound, Cane Corso
7) All the rest, that's where LGD appear
Feel free to share your opinions, I've already seen enough to make this opinion which is my personal one.
Note that these individual dog breeds must represent the perfect and most non-cull individuals of their breed. |
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Post by Bolushi on Aug 12, 2023 18:25:51 GMT
5 and 6 are needlessly separated. O'Halloran Hound probably beats all of them, but one of the bulldogs could perhaps outlast it. O'Halloran Hound is a pig dog like the Dogo or Arab, and it has 20-40lbs on them. "The mongrel pig dog", O'Halloran, Dogo, Arab, Bullwolfhound, NQ Bullhound, bullstag, bullygrey etc. are all pretty similar in combat ability, so it'll come down to size most of the time.
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Post by grippingwhiteness on Aug 12, 2023 18:44:31 GMT
5 and 6 are needlessly separated. O'Halloran Hound probably beats all of them, but one of the bulldogs could perhaps outlast it. O'Halloran Hound is a pig dog like the Dogo or Arab, and it has 20-40lbs on them. "The mongrel pig dog", O'Halloran, Dogo, Arab, Bullwolfhound, NQ Bullhound, bullstag, bullygrey etc. are all pretty similar in combat ability, so it'll come down to size most of the time. Maybe could you replicate a full list like I've done? From what I've seen we mostly agree although the bottom of the list is debatable. I have to be honest that as proud italian I can be I was about to exclude the CC all the way even from top 6 because I've been sadly too much disappointed by them , on mail.ru even a GSD beat one. I think that the good CC with proper gameness is rarer than a captive cougar raised to be as aggressive and powerful as its wild counterparts lol. Perhaps there are a lot of old stories of badass CCs I still have to read and know and maybe you can also help me with that... although you know back to the past there was no such thing as a Cane corso since both CC and NEOs where considered the same thing (and looked the same aswell, the mighty Cane Da Presa). I've sadly never ever seen an O'Halloran perform, I've never seen them in action and even good pictures of them are extremely rare on the net, from the few ones I've seen they look like... bulkier and smaller framed Great Danes. Does that hold up?  Sadly I've never ever seen them in action but I suppose as you suggested that they behave like all other boarhounds - gotta admit I'm a bit biased towards dogos and that I still see them as hyper aggressive beasts sometimes. But that's also because I've never seen Bull Arabs and other pig dogs in action on video. I'll give that they are very similar. Now obviously you mentioned other "breeds" I didn't take into consideration to we should also enlarge the list, I'm pretty much curious to see what list Dale might generate in the next hours. |
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Post by grippingwhiteness on Aug 12, 2023 18:47:12 GMT
5 and 6 are needlessly separated. O'Halloran Hound probably beats all of them, but one of the bulldogs could perhaps outlast it. O'Halloran Hound is a pig dog like the Dogo or Arab, and it has 20-40lbs on them. "The mongrel pig dog", O'Halloran, Dogo, Arab, Bullwolfhound, NQ Bullhound, bullstag, bullygrey etc. are all pretty similar in combat ability, so it'll come down to size most of the time. With Bullygreys do you mean the same guys I've been spamming on RWDOTW? Because I've agreed with Dale on one point: we only see them but never performing, like if they breed very great looking dogs but never share footage of them doing actual working. Have you seen them performing? |
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Post by Bolushi on Aug 12, 2023 19:07:49 GMT
5 and 6 are needlessly separated. O'Halloran Hound probably beats all of them, but one of the bulldogs could perhaps outlast it. O'Halloran Hound is a pig dog like the Dogo or Arab, and it has 20-40lbs on them. "The mongrel pig dog", O'Halloran, Dogo, Arab, Bullwolfhound, NQ Bullhound, bullstag, bullygrey etc. are all pretty similar in combat ability, so it'll come down to size most of the time. With Bullygreys do you mean the same guys I've been spamming on RWDOTW? Because I've agreed with Dale on one point: we only see them but never performing, like if they breed very great looking dogs but never share footage of them doing actual working. Have you seen them performing? They're mostly the same thing. I think the bullgreys are APBT x greyhound while bullygreys are EBT x greyhound (or staghounds/roo dogs, australian greyhounds). In fact there are lines of bullygreys with bullgrey in them. Bullygrey x pitbull isn't too uncommon, and then those dogs are crossed back into bullygrey lines.   |
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Post by Bolushi on Aug 12, 2023 19:45:56 GMT
5 and 6 are needlessly separated. O'Halloran Hound probably beats all of them, but one of the bulldogs could perhaps outlast it. O'Halloran Hound is a pig dog like the Dogo or Arab, and it has 20-40lbs on them. "The mongrel pig dog", O'Halloran, Dogo, Arab, Bullwolfhound, NQ Bullhound, bullstag, bullygrey etc. are all pretty similar in combat ability, so it'll come down to size most of the time. Maybe could you replicate a full list like I've done? From what I've seen we mostly agree although the bottom of the list is debatable. I have to be honest that as proud italian I can be I was about to exclude the CC all the way even from top 6 because I've been sadly too much disappointed by them , on mail.ru even a GSD beat one. I think that the good CC with proper gameness is rarer than a captive cougar raised to be as aggressive and powerful as its wild counterparts lol. Perhaps there are a lot of old stories of badass CCs I still have to read and know and maybe you can also help me with that... although you know back to the past there was no such thing as a Cane corso since both CC and NEOs where considered the same thing (and looked the same aswell, the mighty Cane Da Presa). I've sadly never ever seen an O'Halloran perform, I've never seen them in action and even good pictures of them are extremely rare on the net, from the few ones I've seen they look like... bulkier and smaller framed Great Danes. Does that hold up? View AttachmentSadly I've never ever seen them in action but I suppose as you suggested that they behave like all other boarhounds - gotta admit I'm a bit biased towards dogos and that I still see them as hyper aggressive beasts sometimes. But that's also because I've never seen Bull Arabs and other pig dogs in action on video. I'll give that they are very similar. Now obviously you mentioned other "breeds" I didn't take into consideration to we should also enlarge the list, I'm pretty much curious to see what list Dale might generate in the next hours. I'll get to the full list soon. Hopefully within the next few hours. Yeah a lot of CCs are shit, most that make it into the dog fights are also shit. There are boardog Corsos but they're not great really, they can get the job done but an Airedale is a better choice, a staghound is a better choice, a pig dog is a much much much better choice... they're just not bred for much of anything and many don't want the smoke from another dog or a hog. A few absolutely do, but they don't partake in dog fights. O'Hallorans have a lot of Dane in them, they're working Danes basically. Great Danes aren't an uncommon ingredient in mongrel pig dogs and this line has a lot of Dane in it. I've got a pic of an O'Halloran with its boar catch -  The one dog that went to Africa to hunt the warthogs was basically an O'Halloran. O'Hallorans are a Dane x Mastiff line and that's what Black was. See the black dog -  |
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Post by Hardcastle on Aug 13, 2023 1:10:30 GMT
It's a surprisingly difficult thing to really make a ranking that you feel happy with. Every time I've tried I've not felt satisfied that I got it right.
Even though I'm the original LGD hater, I'm not as hard on them as you GW. I still think the big LGDs bred and used for fighting, which I'm not sure are even pure or whatever (definitely couldn't still be LGDs), are kind of sniffing around that top tier with other elite fighting dogs.
Diamond class - GB APBT, LW illegal Tosa, LW Bully Kutta
Gold class - Fighting HW CAS, Fighting HW Kangal, Other Tosas, other BKS, Game tested American Bulldog, Fighting Bandog
Silver - Hunting Dogo argentino, hunting Presa Canario, hunting Aussie pig dogs (including bull arab et al), Bull-working/hunting Alano, hunting bandog, Hunting fila brasileiro, big hunting pitbulls, hunting corso, hunting/scott american bulldogs, hunting boerboel, hunting bullmastiff, hunting dane, fighting gull terrs, gull dongs and irish staff
Bronze - Pet specimens of; EBT, SBT, Amstaff, american bullies/petbulls, leavitt bulldog, old white english bulldog, johnson bulldog, alapaha bulldog, dogue de bordeaux, bullmastiff, dane, EM, boerboel, corso, wolfhound, etc etc... and working LGDs.
Tin - Shar Pei, Chow Chow, Chongqing, Akita, Malamute, Airedale, Rottweiler, bouvier, Giant Schnauzer, Rhodesian Ridgeback, Catahoula, St Bernard, deerhound, boxer
Wood - german shepherds, dutch shepherds, belgian shepherds, Australian Heelers, Greyhound, husky, laika, kelpie, country lab
Dirt - The rest
Open to suggestions.
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Post by Bolushi on Aug 13, 2023 1:27:05 GMT
It's a surprisingly difficult thing to really make a ranking that you feel happy with. Every time I've tried I've not felt satisfied that I got it right. Even though I'm the original LGD hater, I'm not as hard on them as you GW. I still think the big LGDs bred and used for fighting, which I'm not sure are even pure or whatever (definitely couldn't still be LGDs), are kind of sniffing around that top tier with other elite fighting dogs. Diamond class - GB APBT, LW illegal Tosa, LW Bully Kutta Gold class - Fighting HW CAS, Fighting HW Kangal, Other Tosas, other BKS, Game tested American Bulldog, Fighting Bandog Silver - Hunting Dogo argentino, hunting Presa Canario, hunting Aussie pig dogs (including bull arab et al), Bull-working/hunting Alano, hunting bandog, Hunting fila brasileiro, big hunting pitbulls, hunting corso, hunting/scott american bulldogs, hunting boerboel, hunting bullmastiff, hunting dane, fighting gull terrs, gull dongs and irish staff Bronze - Pet specimens of; EBT, SBT, Amstaff, american bullies/petbulls, leavitt bulldog, old white english bulldog, johnson bulldog, alapaha bulldog, dogue de bordeaux, bullmastiff, dane, EM, boerboel, corso, wolfhound, etc etc... and working LGDs. Tin - Shar Pei, Chow Chow, Chongqing, Akita, Malamute, Airedale, Rottweiler, bouvier, Giant Schnauzer, Rhodesian Ridgeback, Catahoula, St Bernard, deerhound, boxer Wood - german shepherds, dutch shepherds, belgian shepherds, Australian Heelers, Greyhound, husky, laika, kelpie, country lab Dirt - The rest Open to suggestions. There's not much point in me making my list since you've mirrored what I would put perfectly, besides a few things. First, I think Airedale deserves bronze. Second, I think a game tested American Bulldog beats "other BKs" the same way APBTs do. The difference is surprisingly small. I would also toss the Gull Terr and Irish Staff into Gold, above the fighting Bandog maybe but could be sleeping on fighting Bandogs. Also might be above the American Bulldog. And the Gull Terr is above Irish Staff, who might not deserve gold but in principle it's similar enough it should be there too. And why is the boxer in tin? They can kick ass. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Aug 13, 2023 2:20:12 GMT
I would argue all of Tin can kick ass, just not enough to beat pet bull terriers and bullmastiffs and working LGDs. Maybe a vintage boxer from 1902 or something, yeah, then there's basically no difference between a boxer and an alano, but they have fallen very far since then. Airedales are tough and great killers, but likewise I don't think they can stand up against bull terriers and bullmastiffs. I actually remember an american bulldog breeder I knew had an Airedale he was very fond of but he would often say that the airedale would "get hurt because it thinks it's a bulldog", implying that when fights break out it clearly is out of its depth. The spirit is willing and the instincts are good but they just lack the physical durability and robusticity to clash well with the "bronze" dogs.
Irish staffs are basically pitbulls that the gypsies fight in shitty parts of the UK, more recently they are probably just acquiring american gamedog lines (at least mixing them into irish staff lines if not displacing them) but I think irish staff and gull terr are very even and similar. Never hear about irish staffs anymore, but in the 00s they were still a thing and had legit fighting strains. I'm not sure this is true for them anymore, and I'm not sure if there are really fighting strain ambulls anymore either, but going by their recent memory I have placed them in my ranking. It's always hard, on any given day a good gull terr, game ambull or game irish staff might beat something in the diamond class, but overall I'd stick with where I have them. There is also the issue of "bad BKS" which I think could potentially lose to a st bernard, but I try to ignore the bad.
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Post by grippingwhiteness on Aug 13, 2023 20:12:56 GMT
It's a surprisingly difficult thing to really make a ranking that you feel happy with. Every time I've tried I've not felt satisfied that I got it right. Even though I'm the original LGD hater, I'm not as hard on them as you GW. I still think the big LGDs bred and used for fighting, which I'm not sure are even pure or whatever (definitely couldn't still be LGDs), are kind of sniffing around that top tier with other elite fighting dogs. Diamond class - GB APBT, LW illegal Tosa, LW Bully Kutta Gold class - Fighting HW CAS, Fighting HW Kangal, Other Tosas, other BKS, Game tested American Bulldog, Fighting Bandog Silver - Hunting Dogo argentino, hunting Presa Canario, hunting Aussie pig dogs (including bull arab et al), Bull-working/hunting Alano, hunting bandog, Hunting fila brasileiro, big hunting pitbulls, hunting corso, hunting/scott american bulldogs, hunting boerboel, hunting bullmastiff, hunting dane, fighting gull terrs, gull dongs and irish staff Bronze - Pet specimens of; EBT, SBT, Amstaff, american bullies/petbulls, leavitt bulldog, old white english bulldog, johnson bulldog, alapaha bulldog, dogue de bordeaux, bullmastiff, dane, EM, boerboel, corso, wolfhound, etc etc... and working LGDs. Tin - Shar Pei, Chow Chow, Chongqing, Akita, Malamute, Airedale, Rottweiler, bouvier, Giant Schnauzer, Rhodesian Ridgeback, Catahoula, St Bernard, deerhound, boxer Wood - german shepherds, dutch shepherds, belgian shepherds, Australian Heelers, Greyhound, husky, laika, kelpie, country lab Dirt - The rest Open to suggestions. That's a nice list. Although you know where I'm going to disagree.
I know I've less experience than you in watching dog footage as a whole since I got seriously into it in the last 2 years (especially the dogfighting thing) but trust me when I claim (obviously in my opinion but I may also portray it almost as a rule ) that from what I've seen about game/hunting dogs and "fighting LGDs" I guess that there's almost nothing the latter can compete when put in front of a formidable experienced individual of the former's league.
No, I don't hate LGDs as I've already discussed with Musth, I highly reward them and respect them (Kangals especially, my favourite LGD without a mere doubt) for their role. But I don't reward them for a role I think they barely fit in, especially when HW.
A russian telegram channel including some mail.ru videos have showed me enough footage to have these conclusions on this debate. I think the fighting LGD with "high prey drive" is actually very overstated because even the champion volkodav have this habit of fighting other dogs in that territorial way, with very rare occasions of actual impressive aggressiveness by any of the opponents. Even the most brutal and best fighting volkodav of all the time praised and awarded by many russian sites (Gabo) looked very goofy and still struggled with pet Amstaffs and pet-bulls. Not to mention his habit of humping some of its opponents for dominance. Even the current Volkodav champions do that : 
What the hell is this? I'll always say this, fighting LGD is a failed experiment that only works when you pit two failures together so it's LGD v LGD, or LGD v trash dogos or tosas
Including videos I've seen of pet dogos of like 105-110 lb low differing alabais and volkodavs easily in the 180-190+ lb range. There's so much difference in the mentality of game and hunting trained dogs when compared to these other dogs. The former sees the opponent as a vermin or a dog version of the "subhuman" which means it must be exterminated at all costs no matter what happens while the latter almost has pity in front of the opponent and sometimes after having defeated it simply wants to gain it's respect via submission.
I really do not see any of these types of dogs having a mere chance against serious game dogs in the silver cathegory, first ones especially.
So on one hand you have a heavyweight Volkodav/Alabai that has only fought other heavyweight LGDs, on the other hand you have a resurrected Akela or just a battle scarred dogo that has subjugated and subdued many boars much larger than what any alabai can reach and much stronger also than what any alabai can become. And had all the goring scars on its body.
The dogo knows how to handle this - 
What is a heavyweight LGD compared to a boar? A slower even smaller opponent. The dogo will launch itself at full speed on the LGD before the latter can even realize the fight started, it will lug onto its cheek/neck and never release. Now what is the "190 lb big LGD" going to do? It's not a monster leopard that can rake off and tear apart the dogo to force it off and then subdue and finish it thanks to it's decisive size advantage. It's not a boar that can gore it badly with its tusks but still sometimes fail to force the dogo off . If even some giant boars fail to make dogos release them by stomping on then with their hooves or goring them with their tusks, what is a HW LGD going to do? It is already too heavy to even turn around quickly, also the excessive weight means terrible stamina. The match will be the dogo lugs on the alabai in the first 3 seconds and all the rest is the large LGD walking around trying to shake it off but failing miserably and finally collapsing exhausted with the triumphant dogo over it still lugged on its neck .
Note that I'm talking about dogos, but a Bull Arab would do the same thing.
You see this cute 70 lb bull arab ? 
Well he subdued a 350 lb boar all by himself .  I've also started an Instagram discussion with a guy that uploads on telegram many dog fight videos from china, it appears that pet dogos win almost every time over Volkodavs and HW CAS there aswell just like on mail.ru. 
And we know that a hunting trained dogo is another animal totally.... |
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Post by grippingwhiteness on Aug 13, 2023 20:59:52 GMT
Dale is just too good at making ranking classes so I'll take his style. This is my current list- which is shared with most of his Diamond class 💎- GB APBT, LW illegal Tosa, LW Bully Kutta
Gold class 🥇- Other Tosas, other BKS, Game tested American Bulldog, fighting Bandog crosses, fighting Gull terrier, Gull dong, Irish Staffordshire bullterrer
Silver🥈 - Hunting Dogo argentino, hunting Presa Canario, hunting Aussie pig dogs (including bull arab et al), Bull-working/hunting Alano, hunting bandog, Hunting fila brasileiro, hunting boerboel, big hunting pitbulls, hunting corso, hunting/scott american bulldogs, hunting bullmastiff, hunting dane, HW fighting Volkodav, HW fighting CAS/Kangal
Bronze 🥉- PET specimens of; EBT, SBT, Amstaff, american bullies/petbulls, leavitt bulldog, old white english bulldog, johnson bulldog, alapaha bulldog, dogue de bordeaux, bullmastiff, dane, EM, boerboel, corso, wolfhound, and working LGDs.
Tin - Shar Pei, Chow Chow, Chongqing, Akita, Malamute, Airedale, Tibetan Mastiff, Rottweiler, bouvier, Giant Schnauzer, Rhodesian Ridgeback, Catahoula, St Bernard, deerhound, boxer
Wood - german shepherds, dutch shepherds, belgian shepherds, Australian Heelers, Greyhound, husky, laika, kelpie, country labrador
Dirt - The rest.
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Post by Hardcastle on Aug 14, 2023 0:27:26 GMT
Having a hard time disagreeing...
But you mentioned yourself "even though it was crushing the dogo at first", definitely nothing in the "bronze" or "tin" class is gonna do that for even one second. That kind of counts for something to me. Like you say it's like they just lack the finishing instinct and revert to humping or whatever, after dominating, I'm not willing to then say they are way worse at fighting. Especially when the odd one seems to have the killer instinct and then sometimes kills and eats a bully kutta or whatever. Letting a fight go way past the point of one dominating the other kind of rubs me the wrong way anyway.
But I kind of like how you put them together with elite working gripping dogs. That's a compromise that makes sense. I have always been dubious of the quality of the dogs they do beat, and sometimes felt it was patriotic propoganda back in the day. In my list you could kind of merge gold and silver and I'd still think it's about right.
I kind of have a hard time actually with the thought of a gull terr beating a serious hunting dogo. I've just seen many cases in person of pig dogs beating bull terrier types. There was even a case in the news here where a bull arab jumped a fence and killed 2 SBTs in their own yard.
Question actually - because in truth I avoid watching dog fights as much as possible. But have you seen many dogo vs apbt fights with a good size discrepancy? I assume the apbts win but how does it play out?
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Post by Bolushi on Aug 14, 2023 0:31:36 GMT
Having a hard time disagreeing... But you mentioned yourself "even though it was crushing the dogo at first", definitely nothing in the "bronze" or "tin" class is gonna do that for even one second. That kind of counts for something to me. Like you say it's like they just lack the finishing instinct and revert to humping or whatever, after dominating, I'm not willing to then say they are way worse at fighting. Especially when the odd one seems to have the killer instinct and then sometimes kills and eats a bully kutta or whatever. Letting a fight go way past the point of one dominating the other kind of rubs me the wrong way anyway. But I kind of like how you put them together with elite working gripping dogs. That's a compromise that makes sense. I have always been dubious of the quality of the dogs they do beat, and sometimes felt it was patriotic propoganda back in the day. In my list you could kind of merge gold and silver and I'd still think it's about right. I kind of have a hard time actually with the thought of a gull terr beating a serious hunting dogo. I've just seen many cases in person of pig dogs beating bull terrier types. There was even a case in the news here where a bull arab jumped a fence and killed 2 SBTs in their own yard. Question actually - because in truth I avoid watching dog fights as much as possible. But have you seen many dogo vs apbt fights with a good size discrepancy? I assume the apbts win but how does it play out? I've seen a few APBT vs Dogo fights. They usually cut the fight at 1-2 minutes, lol, and I know why. They want to see the bull terrier get screwed I guess and then aren't interested in a screaming losing dog, OR they think the bull terrier will get killed. I've seen "saving lives" and "this will get pretty bloody and boring in a minute let's stop this here". When they don't the pit often wins, but the Dogo should also be able to win. There's a video of a Dogo beating 2 APBTs at once but they were fucking shit and one looked like it was nursing pups and just ran out to help its mate that was getting mauled. |
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Post by Bolushi on Aug 14, 2023 0:46:20 GMT
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Post by CoolJohnson on Aug 14, 2023 3:58:39 GMT
All I know is pitbulls and any dog related to that breed are top fighters.
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