Ranking dog breeds based on dogfighting

[bombsonyourmom]

Are there any formidable scent hounds, or are they just inherently limited fighters?

[Hardcastle]

Mar 2, 2024 23:47:50 GMT bombsonyourmom said:

Are there any formidable scent hounds, or are they just inherently limited fighters?

They are inherently limited fighters, ever since they were developed they had an aversion to combat ingrained into them by natural selection.

They need a strong prey drive, even obsessive, in order to be passionate about what they do and eager to hunt and thus good at it. So they have this hyper intense lust to hunt and kill as high as any dog or animal that ever lived driving them to track down their quarry. But, they emerged in a part of the world (likely proto-greece in the early Bronze age/Helladic period) with lions, wolves, leopards, hyenas, brown bears, wild boar. Imagine them obsessively following their nose far away from their handlers and potentially their pack members with their cold-trail tracking style, all worked up seeing red and then they run into these animals. They die, UNLESS, they had extreme self preservation and fight aversion and evasion skills. So those were the ones favoured by evolution. They have this weird combination of intense seething desire to hunt and then being too scared to engage once they get there, despite really really wanting to, so out of frustration they bark. They stay in the pocket of persecuting the quarry, because they are still obsessed with hunting them, but can't bring themself to risk injury by engaging. They are basically tuned to be anti-fighting cowards who still have a rage and hatred aimed towards prey. The earliest writers in the history of human civilisation would write about this nature of these scenthounds and actually be annoyed at them for being cowards, not understanding how and why they came to be the way they are. They would write about wishing they were more like sighthounds and gripping dogs (which they knew as "dogs of epirus" or whatever the case may be, didn't understand dog categories- hell, people still don't), not understanding it would be suicide if they were like that. So it is not like humans tried to make them that way, they just had to be that way and evolved to be that way. If you hate fighting you are bad at it, and if you evolve for thousands of years hating and avoiding fighting you also physically adapt and change to be bad at it. So being bad anti-fighters is deeply ingrained into their mind and body. There's not just an absence of fighting ability, there's an active pronounced anti-fighting ability. So much so that just a sprinkle of their blood in a hybrid is liable to "poison" the fighting ability of the progeny. It is at a point that even though they have been hunting wild boars for thousands of years, if you want to add nose into a boar hunting hybrid that you expect to fight, it is better to go with a bird hunting dog rather than one of these anti-fight boar hunting scenthounds.

That said the degree of aversion to fighting does vary in scenthounds. Some have since been tuned to be rougher than others. Plotthounds are famously quite fight happy compared to other coonhounds, that aversion to fighting kind of dulled and some fancy themselves as fighters. Otterhounds, designed to track and rip apart the rather scrappy otter, have a nastier side than most scenthounds, etc. But overall as a lineage they all descend from these bronze age scent trailing dogs that had to evolve to instinctively refrain from engaging in combat, so they all have this heightened self preservation that is antithetical to the state of being a warrior.

[CoolJohnson]

Feb 27, 2024 1:18:04 GMT Bolushi said:

Feb 26, 2024 8:51:00 GMT bombsonyourmom said:

Whelp, guess we're not getting those.

I actually found those screenshots on an anti pitbull subreddit. Apparently they in turn found them on facebook. 

Off topic but anti pitbull subreddits are honestly the most psychotic thing I've seen on the internet in years, tbh. I am surprised they're still up, shouldn't be. r/dogfree, r/banpitbulls, r/pitbullhate... yet the second I make r/jewishhate, r/deportmexicans, r/arrestblackies etc. etc. the sub is taken down. Smear campaigning something you don't like with some of the most horrendous comments and videos and etc. etc. while reddit bans people for saying "ehh not sure about white people being better than blacks, blacks shoot people more so..."
They can do that shit on 4chan but reddit? Reddit?! The most strict bs website on earth? How??? 

What is the point of comparing shitbulls to humans?

Human races have existed for a long time. Shitbulls were breeds created in relatively recent times, and they have no puspose in the present times since there are better, less violent breeds.

[Bolushi]

Mar 13, 2024 21:06:28 GMT CoolJohnson said:

Feb 27, 2024 1:18:04 GMT Bolushi said:

Off topic but anti pitbull subreddits are honestly the most psychotic thing I've seen on the internet in years, tbh. I am surprised they're still up, shouldn't be. r/dogfree, r/banpitbulls, r/pitbullhate... yet the second I make r/jewishhate, r/deportmexicans, r/arrestblackies etc. etc. the sub is taken down. Smear campaigning something you don't like with some of the most horrendous comments and videos and etc. etc. while reddit bans people for saying "ehh not sure about white people being better than blacks, blacks shoot people more so..."
They can do that shit on 4chan but reddit? Reddit?! The most strict bs website on earth? How??? 

What is the point of comparing shitbulls to humans?

Human races have existed for a long time. Shitbulls were breeds created in relatively recent times, and they have no puspose in the present times since there are better, less violent breeds.

Why wouldn't we want a MORE violent breed? 

[Hardcastle]

Races haven't existed a long time. Gripping dogs have existed exactly as long as white people, and likely made white people. Possibly older, I was emailed a strange study from academia.edu talking about some cave paintings in Arabia and Armenia from the pleistocebe which seem to show larger dogs bound by leashes to people while smaller dogs harass horses, still working my way through it, it actually could throw a spanner in the works for some theories I have. Either way, gripping dogs are a lineage at least as old as east Asian people (the new kind with shovel shaped incisors) and pink hued caucasians. Older than Polynesians.

"Breed" is irrelevant, it's just not even a real classification from a scientific standpoint so how you can ban an imaginary thing I don't know. They try and it's amusing watching them get confused and run into issues. Like the UK "didn't we already ban apbts? Wtf is an xl bully?", and sure enough a different "breed" which is the same thing (a gripping dog) will replace the XL bully and they'll do a whole nother idiotic cycle of this stupidity, rinse and repeat.

[pulpfiction]

Aug 13, 2023 1:10:30 GMT Hardcastle said:

It's a surprisingly difficult thing to really make a ranking that you feel happy with. Every time I've tried I've not felt satisfied that I got it right.

Even though I'm the original LGD hater, I'm not as hard on them as you GW. I still think the big LGDs bred and used for fighting, which I'm not sure are even pure or whatever (definitely couldn't still be LGDs), are kind of sniffing around that top tier with other elite fighting dogs.

Diamond class - GB APBT, LW illegal Tosa, LW Bully Kutta

Gold class - Fighting HW CAS, Fighting HW Kangal, Other Tosas, other BKS, Game tested American Bulldog, Fighting Bandog

Silver - Hunting Dogo argentino, hunting Presa Canario, hunting Aussie pig dogs (including bull arab et al), Bull-working/hunting Alano, hunting bandog, Hunting fila brasileiro, big hunting pitbulls, hunting corso, hunting/scott american bulldogs, hunting boerboel, hunting bullmastiff, hunting dane, fighting gull terrs, gull dongs and irish staff

Bronze - Pet specimens of; EBT, SBT, Amstaff, american bullies/petbulls, leavitt bulldog, old white english bulldog, johnson bulldog, alapaha bulldog, dogue de bordeaux, bullmastiff, dane, EM, boerboel, corso, wolfhound, etc etc... and working LGDs.

Tin - Shar Pei, Chow Chow, Chongqing, Akita, Malamute, Airedale, Rottweiler, bouvier, Giant Schnauzer, Rhodesian Ridgeback, Catahoula, St Bernard, deerhound, boxer

Wood - german shepherds, dutch shepherds, belgian shepherds, Australian Heelers, Greyhound, husky, laika, kelpie, country lab

Dirt - The rest

Open to suggestions.

[pulpfiction]

What is meant by LW illegal tosa?
I know the LW is light weight as mentioned.
But what’s an illegal tosa?
I’ve watched alot of the stuff on mail.ru it’s really not that decisive I guess imho anyway the pitbulls seem to win at least as many as they lose. Also I question the quality of pitbulls they’re using. That’s why I didn’t use the term GB pitbull. Some of them my be decent but I don’t believe they’re of the same quality we have in USA or Mexico I know they’re some good dogmen there breeding game bulldogs as well as here in America.
Do you guys know anything of the quality of the pitbulls they’re using over there?
I’m a little biased on the gamebred pitbulls as I’ve owned them for 37 years.
Is there any place else to watch videos like mail.ru that I can watch?
Imho a good apbt is going to beat anything that’s ever been called a dog and then some. Percentage wise anyway I know they’re going to lose. But I think you take 10 proven match winners. Put them against 10 dogs of any other breed I believe the apbt’s win 6-7 of the fights.
Who agrees if anyone & who disagrees interested in hearing.
And if there is anyplace like mail.ru can anyone point me in the right direction.

[pulpfiction]

Sorry.
Hi everyone New here that was 1st post.

[pulpfiction]

I would also like to hear from anyone that has info on open weight open breed dog fighting guess it’s some what common in other countries.
How well do the GB pitbulls do in those contests?
Again are they using pitbulls of the highest caliber?
Thanks.

[Hardcastle]

Hi, sorry forget to check the board, is kinda dead.
You're welcome to come join this forum where we are all a little more active
www.tapatalk.com/groups/bestiary/discussion/all
(Though still not all that active)

In Japan they have legal dog fighting with very strict rules with time limits and etc and the tosas bred for that "league" are favoured for power and grappling ability and durability but not so much stamina or damage output. Separately they also have a rather brutal underground illegal dog fighting scene which was illuminated in some images and an interview which was doing the rounds on dog sites in the 00s. The tosas in this circuit were different animals, basically, leaner and rangier with more of a stamina focus and longer muzzles on heads proportionately quite large for their bodies. By all accounts rather nasty killer dogs.

The open weight fights on mail.ru take place mostly in China and Russia and are fairly amateurish. Having said that people do get their hands of some decent lineages of gamebred apbts and try them there, and have varying amounts of success. Fighting a dog 4 times your size is gonna be a tall order though, even for a gamebred apbt, especially if the larger dog is really "turned on" and actually fights to kill, which many don't (kind of a rare individual dog with that mentality, outside of gb apbt ranks- and to some extent even within), but some giant central Asian Sheps/alabais and kangals and bully kuttas and etc occasionally do, and sometimes do well. The results are pretty random, like just good individuals pop up where they pop up, rather than specific lines of specific breeds consistently producing good fighting dogs. Some dogos, presas, ambulls and bandogs have also done ok. I can say some of the apbts are down from good lines, but I don't recall a case where a legit champ apbt crossed over to that world, seems unlikely their owners would do that.

[Hardcastle]

Btw whatever ranking I did here is probably not what I think anymore, my mind is always changing, or "updating" probably a nice way of putting it.

Apart from gamebred apbts and pro tosas I'd probably just say it's a random crapshoot depending on individual.

[pulpfiction]

Hi Hardcastle thanks for the reply.
So in your opinion from what you’ve seen or been told.
The gb apbt & tosa the the top fighting breeds & come out the winners most of the time against these other breeds?
And how often are the gb apbt’s successful against the tosas?
I would agree that your probably not going to see any American pitdog men showing up at those.

They really have nothing to gain if their dog wins they can’t count that as a win back in America. Say your dog is a 4 time winner.
It takes 5 contract wins to be a grand champion well that win wouldn’t help.
And a loss of course doesn’t do him any favors either lol.

I’ll say this though & they really haven’t created a better fighting dog than the gb apbt because.
1) they have to bring a dog that’s 3-4 times bigger than a apbt.
2) their shit as companions not to many people are going to want a 140-200lb dog sharing their living space with. Completely inconvenient. No wind or agility big slow moving lumbering.
3) cleaning up the piles that must be the size of horse shit piles.
4) feed cost really everything with their up keep would be more costly.

I can probably come up with more but that’s of the top of my head.

So if the gb apbt can still beat these giants giving up so much size.
I ask you have they really got a superior fighting breed & I mean any of them other breeds?

Unless they can claim any of these can whip the gb apbt 100% of the time then no they don’t have a superior fighting dog.

[pulpfiction]

Also when they do this they should really only be using gb apbt in the 60-75lb range.

And I really still don’t believe that they’re using the same caliber of bulldogs pitmen here of Mexico have & breed.

[pulpfiction]

What would your ranking be now put of curiosity?

And I agree it’s a very tall order with an opponent 3-4 times your size.
The only thing about that is though.
If the cao kangal bully kutta etc. didn’t kill or completely disable the gb apbt. Which I know they do sometimes. But when they don’t that big dog is going to tire after 30 minutes.

Like I said above do they really have a superior fighting breed when they have to come in with a dog 120-200 lbs? That still loses to the good old apbt half the time or more?

[Hardcastle]

Yeah I think it is safe to say there is really no question that the apbt is still the ultimate fighting dog (and loosely the "bull and terrier" design in general is the optimal dog-fighting design). I don't think it can really be said that any breed or type consistently beats them, even ignoring weight class. They've "been beaten", and there may have even been some "champion" central asian shepherds or bully kuttas or whatever that killed multiple decent apbts during their career, but you definitely can't say the breeds they belong to are above apbt, because it was just them and still not the norm for their breed.

Also realistically we SHOULD be taking weight class into account. Then it is just totally a no brainer. But also yes, a big strong and also game apbt would give major problems to any dog.

Tosas... tosas are interesting. Even though I do rate them highly, I don't have much faith in their ability to beat a much bigger dog. If I had to choose between an 75 lbs apbt and a 130 lbs tosa to beat a 180+ lbs alabai, I'd choose the apbt for sure, I think the tosa would definitely struggle. They aren't really built to overcome that kind of thing, they are more designed to dominate.
However... that same tosa might actually do well against the 75 lbs apbt, by dominating it in the grapple.

So with that in mind, I think it is very difficult to give a meaningful ranking. I think there are a lot of little nuances in there, where you will be constantly contradicting yourself trying to make a clean linear ranking.

But the apbt has to be put at the top. Now I would probably just definitely leave it all alone in the "diamond class". While fully recognising they can be defeated, even good ones, but that doesn't really "put a dent" in their "crown", so to speak.

I'd probably then actually give the tosa a special place alone in the "gold class". Even though I actually don't love their ability to take out much larger dogs, and there are probably dogs below them that are better suited. I still think they need to be recognised as very elite professional fighting dogs who are very very very likely to dominate anything their size or smaller (including even gb apbts). I think they do deserve a special placement.

Then I believe in silver class we should just really have "everything else" that has the potential to be good but isn't consistently so. Many dogs just simply don't even have the potential to compete at the top end, BUT those who do I think are all kind of equal and it is just a matter of how lines are bred and maybe more so how an individual turns out, with its mentality and also its conditioning and etc.

So in this class I'd actually just group all the following together - Bandogs (all varieties), pig dogs (bull arabs and similar), bull terriers (all other kinds), presas, corsos, dogos, filas, alanos, ddbs, boerboels, danes, bullmastiffs, neo mastiffs, english mastiffs, american bulldogs, bully kuttas, central asian shepherds, kangals...

To varying degrees all these dogs have a lot of "junk", some are truly nearly entirely junk (like most of the mastiff breeds listed and danes and etc), others are mostly not junk (like working pig dogs), but either way the point is they CAN be great fighters, the ceiling is up there competing with apbts and tosas, and the basement is just totally shit nothing. They can't be put with tosas or apbts because most definitely aren't on that level, but the potential is there for them to be genuinely formidable fighters.

In bronze I would put dogs whose potential just isn't at that elite level, BUT they are still undeniably scrappy strong formidable dogs.
In this category I would have - Akita, Rottweiler, boxer, most lgd breeds, wolfhound, st bernard, Bouvier, Giant Schnauzer, Airedale, staghounds, shar pei.
I'd probably actually put "wolves" in this category as well. Fully appreciating wolves might kill dogs in higher categories, might even be likely to, but not if they are good specimens of those better dogs. Those have a clear advantage in their adaptations for combat where the wolf doesn't have the potential to go as high as them in combative ability. So it belongs in this category for me, even though it's "consistency" and quality of specimens is high, and likelihood of shit specimens very low.

Tin - I would put dogs that tip over very basic normal dogs ever so slightly - Heelers, Greyhounds, Deerhounds, Karelian bear dogs, BMCs, dutch shepherds, mals, GSDs, old english sheepdog, briard, most spitz breeds, plotthound, dingo ... Maybe labrador could actually go here, despite kind of being a perfect candidate for the next "wood category" (which is normal totally non-combative dogs), I feel like it has just enough additional strength where it is kind of likely to beat most dogs in that category IF it decides to fight. Bloodhound kind of the same as the lab. Should be nothing, seems to just have a little sprinkle of something.

Wood- Normal dogs, like I said- collies, kelpies, aussie shep, setters, pointers, Dalmatians, weimeraners, most scenthounds (foxhounds, coonhounds, etc), dobermans, giant poodles, corgis ... etc etc. Neutral or even sub-neutral nerfed "pet dogs". The ones most people probably think of when they talk about "fido" being "food" for a wild animal.

Dirt - Toy breeds and other deformed totally ruined nothing dogs. The ones who are barely fit to even exist, let alone win a fight.

I realise as I finish up I've left out real terriers... it's just so tricky to compare them... they're savage nasty killers who in some ways (some cases) could trouble the diamond ranking, but also are tiny little dogs where it feels weird to even compare them. A terrier might be a nasty badass who also could just be killed by a lab if push came to shove, so... For my own convenience I think I will just stick with leaving them out.