|
|
Post by s on Sept 7, 2023 22:47:30 GMT
"Other animal food items for Eurasian Lynx include (in decreasing importance) red deer, chamois, brown hare Lepus europaeus, domestic cattle, red fox Vulpes vulpes, " So yeah, the modern-day obese cattle are prey for even 20kg Lynxes. So it's no wonder that 2 20-25kg Stray Pitbulls (who are actually better in surviving without human intervention than regular Pitbulls because they don't have their food handed out to them) managed to injured one across 2 hours, but even them they failed to kill it in time before Humans arrived lol So you don't think a 750kg Kodiak Bear would have killed that morbidly obese Bull with heart disease? A 500kg Spanish Fighting Bull would have killed it pretty comfortably despite weighting half as the fat Bull. Please provide evidence of an adult bovine being preyed upon by a eurasian lynx. Even a sub-adult. I dare you. Even a 6 month old dairy cow calf. I'll save you time, you won't find it. They would be referring to 2 or 3 cases of a newborn calf being taken. Vague generalised info like that is an extremely poor source. |
|
|
|
Post by s on Sept 7, 2023 22:49:31 GMT
"Other domestic animals locally killed and consumed by lynx included alpaca (Lama pacos), juveniles of yak (Bos grunniens), chicken (Gallus domesticus), and farmed European mouflon (Ovis aries musimon), fallow deer (Dama dama), sika deer (Cervus nippon), red deer (C. elaphus) and American mink (Neogale vison) (Danilov et al., 1979, Angst et al., 2002, Matyushkin and Vaisfeld, 2003, Breitenmoser and Breitenmoser-Würsten, 2008, Alexander et al., 2015)"
There you go
|
|
|
|
Post by Hardcastle on Sept 7, 2023 22:52:04 GMT
Please provide evidence of an adult bovine being preyed upon by a eurasian lynx. Even a sub-adult. I dare you. Even a 6 month old dairy cow calf. I'll save you time, you won't find it. They would be referring to 2 or 3 cases of a newborn calf being taken. Vague generalised info like that is an extremely poor source. Doesn't seem like an efficient kill, since the cow is alive and fine. Kudos to those two lynx for giving it a try though. |
|
|
|
Post by s on Sept 7, 2023 22:55:23 GMT
Doesn't seem like an efficient kill, since the cow is alive and fine. Kudos to those two lynx for giving it a try though. Same could be said for most Pitbull attacks on cows, lol. |
|
|
|
Post by Hardcastle on Sept 7, 2023 22:56:36 GMT
"Other domestic animals locally killed and consumed by lynx included alpaca (Lama pacos), juveniles of yak (Bos grunniens), chicken (Gallus domesticus), and farmed European mouflon (Ovis aries musimon), fallow deer (Dama dama), sika deer (Cervus nippon), red deer (C. elaphus) and American mink (Neogale vison) (Danilov et al., 1979, Angst et al., 2002, Matyushkin and Vaisfeld, 2003, Breitenmoser and Breitenmoser-Würsten, 2008, Alexander et al., 2015)" There you go Juvenile probably means actual calf. It is very difficult to imagine a lynx killing a full bodied bovine. They have pulled of some over-achieving feats on largish cervids in the snow, I just don't think a cow (or moose) is gonna be on their menu. Its very hard to imagine, maybe you will find some freak incident. I guess all sorts of things CAN happen pending on countless extraneous circumstances and strange conditions. What will always remain is pitbulls are designed to subjugate adult bulls, and lynx are designed to kill hares. There's a vast chasm between them in regards to their predatory adaptations. A pitbull might also catch and kill a hare one day, you won't find me saying "well... guess its just as good at lynx as catching hares". I know that is not true, I know they can't catch hares. BUT ... one day, will probably be a case where one does due to weird circumstances. |
|
|
|
Post by Hardcastle on Sept 7, 2023 22:58:38 GMT
Doesn't seem like an efficient kill, since the cow is alive and fine. Kudos to those two lynx for giving it a try though. Same could be said for most Pitbull attacks on cows, lol. Pet pitbull attacks on cows, yeah probably. Pet pitbulls might even bet beaten up by a lynx. Has happened. Pet african lions are on record getting beaten up by 34 lbs bulldogs too. A real pitbull is SUPPOSED to be able to subjugate a healthy bull. A lynx is not, not even close, many many many many tiers below that capacity is where the lynx resides. |
|
|
|
Post by s on Sept 7, 2023 23:00:59 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by Hardcastle on Sept 7, 2023 23:14:25 GMT
And that is an example of the kind of deaths that can also occur in nature, when we have no info about a predation case that seems to be an outlier, like a lynx killing an adult boar, and it is the only case ever, and it is totally contrary to everything else we have ever seen, it is actually fully reasonable to assume (if you believe it at all, but if you do) that obviously SOMETHING weird went on. There are so many possibilities, an infinite number. You don't extrapolate from one weird case that "ok, lynx can kill adult boars". No they can't. A pitbull can kill a cow, it has happened many many times, but that is still a good example of how a predator can "kill" a prey animal without actually really doing it. This also happens in nature, all the time. Like the wolf that actually knew an old bull bison was going to die from analysing it over months, and then ran to the spot to watch it die and eat it straight away (its a video on youtube). That could also end up as "data" of a wolf preying on a bull bison, even though the wolf did nothing at all. These vague mentions of predation aren't great evidence. |
|
|
|
Post by s on Sept 7, 2023 23:26:03 GMT
It's about as impressive as you or me beating up a 300kg morbidly obese person on the hospital bed that can barely move or punch back. You're wrong, your perception of cattle is incorrect, and I say that as someone who comes from a grazing family and whose biggest dream is to be a grazier and beef cattle breeder. That's a free ranging pasture fed monster bull. It "not having horns" (being polled) is the only argument and tbh a very overrated one. It is unlikely ANY wild predator would kill that bull, period. Maybe if smilodons weren't extinct that would change. My source made it clear even english dairy cows are unambiguously more difficult prey for leopards than semi-wild native zebu cattle of both genders, and a Charolais bull, an enormously powerful and huge draught breed, is just many tiers above that. You trying to make out it's some obese nerd is not accurate. That's all muscle. You're otherwise talking about feed stall grain fed factory cattle, they aren't outside in the open range like this bull. Such bulls live out amongst wild predators unprotected and rarely if ever hear a peep out of them. To add that single case is in no way the crux of the argument for bullbreeds and bulls, it's a trivial and small aside, but it does incidentally show a feat that could not be matched by any wild predator even 3 or 4 times the size of that dog, which is a pet blue Pitbull far removed from a working bulldog. "It is unlikely ANY human would kill the fattest man on earth, period. Maybe if Victorian strongmen weren't dead that would change." Basically what you are saying, just for animals. |
|
|
|
Post by s on Sept 7, 2023 23:26:51 GMT
"Other domestic animals locally killed and consumed by lynx included alpaca (Lama pacos), juveniles of yak (Bos grunniens), chicken (Gallus domesticus), and farmed European mouflon (Ovis aries musimon), fallow deer (Dama dama), sika deer (Cervus nippon), red deer (C. elaphus) and American mink (Neogale vison) (Danilov et al., 1979, Angst et al., 2002, Matyushkin and Vaisfeld, 2003, Breitenmoser and Breitenmoser-Würsten, 2008, Alexander et al., 2015)" There you go Juvenile probably means actual calf. It is very difficult to imagine a lynx killing a full bodied bovine. They have pulled of some over-achieving feats on largish cervids in the snow, I just don't think a cow (or moose) is gonna be on their menu. Its very hard to imagine, maybe you will find some freak incident. I guess all sorts of things CAN happen pending on countless extraneous circumstances and strange conditions. What will always remain is pitbulls are designed to subjugate adult bulls, and lynx are designed to kill hares. There's a vast chasm between them in regards to their predatory adaptations. A pitbull might also catch and kill a hare one day, you won't find me saying "well... guess its just as good at lynx as catching hares". I know that is not true, I know they can't catch hares. BUT ... one day, will probably be a case where one does due to weird circumstances. Juvenile means adolescent/sub-adult in my mind. |
|
|
|
Post by s on Sept 7, 2023 23:31:31 GMT
And that is an example of the kind of deaths that can also occur in nature, when we have no info about a predation case that seems to be an outlier, like a lynx killing an adult boar, and it is the only case ever, and it is totally contrary to everything else we have ever seen, it is actually fully reasonable to assume (if you believe it at all, but if you do) that obviously SOMETHING weird went on. There are so many possibilities, an infinite number. You don't extrapolate from one weird case that "ok, lynx can kill adult boars". No they can't. A pitbull can kill a cow, it has happened many many times, but that is still a good example of how a predator can "kill" a prey animal without actually really doing it. This also happens in nature, all the time. Like the wolf that actually knew an old bull bison was going to die from analysing it over months, and then ran to the spot to watch it die and eat it straight away (its a video on youtube). That could also end up as "data" of a wolf preying on a bull bison, even though the wolf did nothing at all. These vague mentions of predation aren't great evidence. Where did i ever deny Predators use factors such as terrain to their favour? (Such as biting the legs of their prey so it falls off a cliff or something), i was simply disputing that Pitbulls were this sort of invincible machines that win battles out of sheer might and don't use anything else to their favour. |
|
|
|
Post by Hardcastle on Sept 7, 2023 23:36:55 GMT
You're wrong, your perception of cattle is incorrect, and I say that as someone who comes from a grazing family and whose biggest dream is to be a grazier and beef cattle breeder. That's a free ranging pasture fed monster bull. It "not having horns" (being polled) is the only argument and tbh a very overrated one. It is unlikely ANY wild predator would kill that bull, period. Maybe if smilodons weren't extinct that would change. My source made it clear even english dairy cows are unambiguously more difficult prey for leopards than semi-wild native zebu cattle of both genders, and a Charolais bull, an enormously powerful and huge draught breed, is just many tiers above that. You trying to make out it's some obese nerd is not accurate. That's all muscle. You're otherwise talking about feed stall grain fed factory cattle, they aren't outside in the open range like this bull. Such bulls live out amongst wild predators unprotected and rarely if ever hear a peep out of them. To add that single case is in no way the crux of the argument for bullbreeds and bulls, it's a trivial and small aside, but it does incidentally show a feat that could not be matched by any wild predator even 3 or 4 times the size of that dog, which is a pet blue Pitbull far removed from a working bulldog. "It is unlikely ANY human would kill the fattest man on earth, period. Maybe if Victorian strongmen weren't dead that would change." You're displaying an ignorance of cattle and misrepresenting what that bull is. You have references to totally different feedlot cattle being unhealthy and fat. In the photo you see a free range muscular charolais bull. They are an extremely robust heavy set breed, developed in france as draught animals used to pull ploughs and cultivate soil. Today they free range as beef cattle all over the world, including among the world's deadliest predators with no issue. That is simply what they look like.    Some have horns and look leaner and more shredded, sure-  But they are all near-impossible prey for anything short of a very good tiger or lion. Your references are all to a different thing totally, "incel" anime fan cattle that are stuck inside eating grain 24/7 and unable to move. Mind you, if you put those fat feedlot cattle outside, it is still unlikely a puma or leopard, let alone a eurasian lynx, would be able to kill one. Simply due to how big they are. |
|
|
|
Post by Hardcastle on Sept 7, 2023 23:48:22 GMT
i was simply disputing that Pitbulls were this sort of invincible machines that win battles out of sheer might and don't use anything else to their favour. But they often have to. That's the difference. If it is something they have done hundreds of millions of times through history and has been part of the normal demands in their evolution, then you have them doing it under all sorts of conditions. Uniquely, unlike wild predators, they have also been forced to face off with the best of the best most healthy adult bulls during their prime, face to face. On level ground, with no advantage. That is something they have had to deal with through their history as an animal. When you have vague mentions on "animal fact" web pages of a lynx killing a moose or a cow, and no further information, and its exceedingly and rare and unusual and you know they typically are unable to prey on moose and cattle under normal circumstances, its a good idea to assume something weird happened. Something weird didn't happen in every one of the hundreds of millions of battles between bulldogs and bulls through history. That is absurd. Your case with one petbull and one rape-victim cow where the cow died falling down a hill actually demonstrates more so why we can often dismiss one off outlier cases of wild predator predation on wild animals above their usual pay grade. It shows the strange things that can happen and can lead to weird results. There is nothing weird or unusual about a pitbull winning a battle with a bull, it is the norm, comparable to a fish swimming or a bird flying. It is comparable indeed to a lynx stalking and ambushing a snow-shoe hare. That is the lynx's equivalent to a pitbull beating a bull. |
|
|
|
Post by s on Sept 8, 2023 10:27:53 GMT
"It is unlikely ANY human would kill the fattest man on earth, period. Maybe if Victorian strongmen weren't dead that would change." You're displaying an ignorance of cattle and misrepresenting what that bull is. You have references to totally different feedlot cattle being unhealthy and fat. In the photo you see a free range muscular charolais bull. They are an extremely robust heavy set breed, developed in france as draught animals used to pull ploughs and cultivate soil. Today they free range as beef cattle all over the world, including among the world's deadliest predators with no issue. That is simply what they look like. Some have horns and look leaner and more shredded, sure- But they are all near-impossible prey for anything short of a very good tiger or lion. Your references are all to a different thing totally, "incel" anime fan cattle that are stuck inside eating grain 24/7 and unable to move. Mind you, if you put those fat feedlot cattle outside, it is still unlikely a puma or leopard, let alone a eurasian lynx, would be able to kill one. Simply due to how big they are. According to your logic this was the strongest and most powerful dog ever and was near-invincible because it was so big "it is unlikely a Pantanal Jaguar would be able to kill it"? |
|
|
|
Post by Hardcastle on Sept 8, 2023 10:56:52 GMT
You're displaying an ignorance of cattle and misrepresenting what that bull is. You have references to totally different feedlot cattle being unhealthy and fat. In the photo you see a free range muscular charolais bull. They are an extremely robust heavy set breed, developed in france as draught animals used to pull ploughs and cultivate soil. Today they free range as beef cattle all over the world, including among the world's deadliest predators with no issue. That is simply what they look like. Some have horns and look leaner and more shredded, sure- But they are all near-impossible prey for anything short of a very good tiger or lion. Your references are all to a different thing totally, "incel" anime fan cattle that are stuck inside eating grain 24/7 and unable to move. Mind you, if you put those fat feedlot cattle outside, it is still unlikely a puma or leopard, let alone a eurasian lynx, would be able to kill one. Simply due to how big they are. According to your logic this was the strongest and most powerful dog ever and was near-invincible because it was so big "it is unlikely a Pantanal Jaguar would be able to kill it"? No. A Pantanal jaguar can definitely kill a 150 kg dog. It can probably not kill a 3000 lbs bull. This is a false equivalence. |
|
