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Post by s on Sept 7, 2023 20:33:34 GMT
We aren't far off. I start favouring leopards around 120 lbs, but saying the dog's "chances stop" at 120 lbs is obviously a little different. I'd say the felids chances stop under 105 lbs against a decent boarhound or bulldog. I think some rare dogs above 120 could still potentially pull off victories. I think realistic chances of a Dog winning against a Puma/Leopard, even a working Bully Kuta with lots of fighting experience end when the Puma/Leopard gets to 70kg (155lbs) Beginning at 45-50kg (100-110lbs) i start to favour Felines over the best Dog breeds in that range at parity or even a slight weight disadvantage. Felines under 45kg like Cheetahs and the Lynx Genus aren't that impressive at parity, there are some gems such as Cape Leopard and Clouded Leopard, but they are exceptions. Once we get to Snow Leopard/Puma/Leopard territory things change |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 7, 2023 21:35:56 GMT
This is an ayrshire cow btw, it is nothing crazy-  Then you have people like s acting like a 50 lbs pet pitbull bringing a charolais bull that weighs 3000+ lbs to the edge of death is "nothing".  It's about as impressive as you or me beating up a 300kg morbidly obese person on the hospital bed that can barely move or punch back. You're wrong, your perception of cattle is incorrect, and I say that as someone who comes from a grazing family and whose biggest dream is to be a grazier and beef cattle breeder. That's a free ranging pasture fed monster bull. It "not having horns" (being polled) is the only argument and tbh a very overrated one. It is unlikely ANY wild predator would kill that bull, period. Maybe if smilodons weren't extinct that would change. My source made it clear even english dairy cows are unambiguously more difficult prey for leopards than semi-wild native zebu cattle of both genders, and a Charolais bull, an enormously powerful and huge draught breed, is just many tiers above that. You trying to make out it's some obese nerd is not accurate. That's all muscle. You're otherwise talking about feed stall grain fed factory cattle, they aren't outside in the open range like this bull. Such bulls live out amongst wild predators unprotected and rarely if ever hear a peep out of them. To add that single case is in no way the crux of the argument for bullbreeds and bulls, it's a trivial and small aside, but it does incidentally show a feat that could not be matched by any wild predator even 3 or 4 times the size of that dog, which is a pet blue Pitbull far removed from a working bulldog. |
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Post by s on Sept 7, 2023 21:59:36 GMT
It's about as impressive as you or me beating up a 300kg morbidly obese person on the hospital bed that can barely move or punch back. You're wrong, your perception of cattle is incorrect, and I say that as someone who comes from a grazing family and whose biggest dream is to be a grazier and beef cattle breeder. That's a free ranging pasture fed monster bull. It "not having horns" (being polled) is the only argument and tbh a very overrated one. It is unlikely ANY wild predator would kill that bull, period. Maybe if smilodons weren't extinct that would change. My source made it clear even english dairy cows are unambiguously more difficult prey for leopards than semi-wild native zebu cattle of both genders, and a Charolais bull, an enormously powerful and huge draught breed, is just many tiers above that. You trying to make out it's some obese nerd is not accurate. That's all muscle. You're otherwise talking about feed stall grain fed factory cattle, they aren't outside in the open range like this bull. Such bulls live out amongst wild predators unprotected and rarely if ever hear a peep out of them. To add that single case is in no way the crux of the argument for bullbreeds and bulls, it's a trivial and small aside, but it does incidentally show a feat that could not be matched by any wild predator even 3 or 4 times the size of that dog, which is a pet blue Pitbull far removed from a working bulldog. "Other animal food items for Eurasian Lynx include (in decreasing importance) red deer, chamois, brown hare Lepus europaeus, domestic cattle, red fox Vulpes vulpes, " So yeah, the modern-day obese cattle are prey for even 20kg Lynxes. So it's no wonder that 2 20-25kg Stray Pitbulls (who are actually better in surviving without human intervention than regular Pitbulls because they don't have their food handed out to them) managed to injured one across 2 hours, but even them they failed to kill it in time before Humans arrived lol So you don't think a 750kg Kodiak Bear would have killed that morbidly obese Bull with heart disease? A 500kg Spanish Fighting Bull would have killed it pretty comfortably despite weighting half as the fat Bull. |
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Post by s on Sept 7, 2023 22:01:33 GMT
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Post by s on Sept 7, 2023 22:02:24 GMT
“Back then, purebred operators fed their young bulls practically a feedlot ration, to achieve gains up to four pounds per day to see how fast they gained. There is good evidence to show if you feed bulls high-energy diets after weaning, you get very rapid weight gain but you also create a lot of problems with excessive fat in the scrotum, reduction in semen quality, more risk for laminitis/founder, liver abscesses, rumenitis, and other physical conditions. Feeding young bulls this much is counterproductive.”
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Post by s on Sept 7, 2023 22:07:55 GMT
It's about as impressive as you or me beating up a 300kg morbidly obese person on the hospital bed that can barely move or punch back. To add that single case is in no way the crux of the argument for bullbreeds and bulls, it's a trivial and small aside, but it does incidentally show a feat that could not be matched by any wild predator even 3 or 4 times the size of that dog, which is a pet blue Pitbull far removed from a working bulldog. Got this from a book written by a Hunter on Siberia with experiences with Lynx, Wolves, Bears and Moose  |
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Post by s on Sept 7, 2023 22:12:06 GMT
So, while in subjugation ability Pitbulls are greatly superior, in killing ability even Eurasian Lynx is superior to a Pitbull, even though it would lose in a fight to a Pitbull.
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 7, 2023 22:15:57 GMT
We aren't far off. I start favouring leopards around 120 lbs, but saying the dog's "chances stop" at 120 lbs is obviously a little different. I'd say the felids chances stop under 105 lbs against a decent boarhound or bulldog. I think some rare dogs above 120 could still potentially pull off victories. I think realistic chances of a Dog winning against a Puma/Leopard, even a working Bully Kuta with lots of fighting experience end when the Puma/Leopard gets to 70kg (155lbs) Beginning at 45-50kg (100-110lbs) i start to favour Felines over the best Dog breeds in that range at parity or even a slight weight disadvantage. Even you and I aren't SOOO crazily far off. We just differ on who dominates the 45-55 kg zone. The debate has always been over the 45-55 kg zone, who is dominant in that zone. I say bulldogs/boarhounds, due to the superiority of their combat adaptation. Cats are superior killers, but I just firmly believe regardless of who is involved, just according to fight dynamics, fight control > finishing ability, applies to humans and animals alike, and the dog will take control of the fight in that weight zone due to actually being proportionately stronger (fact, counter intuitive though it is to people) and the use of their gripping bite, foreign though it is as a grappling technique to the hominid brain, is effective in seizing and maintaining control, something that also requires stamina in a back and forth fight, and they also have the superior psychology for combat, most pertinently perhaps being unphased by pain, and also unwavering confidence with no "doubt" brought in by self-preservation/risk aversion/timidity. As superior as the cat is at killing, that is exactly how superior the gripping dog is at gaining and maintaining grappling control in a face to face combative situation. At higher weights this changes as the dog loses proportional power and proportional mobility, while the cat maintains proportional power and mobility, if not actually upgrades, especially in power. Eventually in higher sizes the cat will be the one likely to gain and maintain control, pinning the dog down. Then quick death is assured, due to the cat's elite killing ability. This is equally true for pumas and leopards, and snow leopards. I don't really separate snow leopards, the only issue is they rarely raise above this weight zone where dogs are dominant. A good question mark could be raised for jaguars, as they seem to have more proportional power, even potentially in that 45-55 kg weight range. I'm significantly less confident, and think there is at least sure to be a "streamlining" of the roster of dogs that could still prevail. Leopards and pumas and snow leopards, however, I think will lose to the best gripping dogs at 45-55 kgs. This doesn't extend to any other kind of dog, btw. 55-70 kgs I favour leopards, pumas, snow leopards , jaguars, et al. BUT I do think there are rare exceptional individuals of large boarhound/warhound that could still make it interesting. Under 45? Forget it. Small leopards, snow leopards, small pumas, clouded leopards... to some extent ocelot, make it VAGUELY interesting, but ultimately not really when talking about high level working dogs of the boarhound, bulldog, bull terrier, fell terrier, etc varieties. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 7, 2023 22:17:20 GMT
“Back then, purebred operators fed their young bulls practically a feedlot ration, to achieve gains up to four pounds per day to see how fast they gained. There is good evidence to show if you feed bulls high-energy diets after weaning, you get very rapid weight gain but you also create a lot of problems with excessive fat in the scrotum, reduction in semen quality, more risk for laminitis/founder, liver abscesses, rumenitis, and other physical conditions. Feeding young bulls this much is counterproductive.” Again you are talking about feedlot cattle. Cattle who live in tiny stalls inside and just eat. Yes I would agree with you about those. The bull in the picture is not the animal you are talking about. The fact it is outside should be a give-away. It is a free range heavily muscled grass fed draught bull. Different animal, chalk and cheese. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 7, 2023 22:18:08 GMT
So, while in subjugation ability Pitbulls are greatly superior, in killing ability even Eurasian Lynx is superior to a Pitbull, even though it would lose in a fight to a Pitbull. Yes, it is superior in killing efficiency on the small game it targets. |
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Post by s on Sept 7, 2023 22:23:58 GMT
So, while in subjugation ability Pitbulls are greatly superior, in killing ability even Eurasian Lynx is superior to a Pitbull, even though it would lose in a fight to a Pitbull. Yes, it is superior in killing efficiency on the small game it targets. Is Moose small game? Lol |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 7, 2023 22:28:08 GMT
You would find lynx are extremely inefficient and insufficient in killing a moose, lol. A pitbull would be more liable to pull off that kill, inefficiently and sloppily over a drawn out period, but even so this would still be way way way more "efficient" than a lynx's totally failed effort, which would be the reality 1 million out of 1 million times.
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Post by s on Sept 7, 2023 22:29:51 GMT
You would find lynx are extremely inefficient and insufficient in killing a moose, lol. A pitbull would be more liable to pull off that kill, inefficiently and sloppily over a drawn out period, but even so this would still be way way way more "efficient" than a lynx's totally failed effort, which would be the reality 1 million out of 1 million times. Did you see the screenshot of a Book written by an experienced Siberian Hunter i posted? |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 7, 2023 22:37:05 GMT
You're wrong, your perception of cattle is incorrect, and I say that as someone who comes from a grazing family and whose biggest dream is to be a grazier and beef cattle breeder. That's a free ranging pasture fed monster bull. It "not having horns" (being polled) is the only argument and tbh a very overrated one. It is unlikely ANY wild predator would kill that bull, period. Maybe if smilodons weren't extinct that would change. My source made it clear even english dairy cows are unambiguously more difficult prey for leopards than semi-wild native zebu cattle of both genders, and a Charolais bull, an enormously powerful and huge draught breed, is just many tiers above that. You trying to make out it's some obese nerd is not accurate. That's all muscle. You're otherwise talking about feed stall grain fed factory cattle, they aren't outside in the open range like this bull. Such bulls live out amongst wild predators unprotected and rarely if ever hear a peep out of them. To add that single case is in no way the crux of the argument for bullbreeds and bulls, it's a trivial and small aside, but it does incidentally show a feat that could not be matched by any wild predator even 3 or 4 times the size of that dog, which is a pet blue Pitbull far removed from a working bulldog. "Other animal food items for Eurasian Lynx include (in decreasing importance) red deer, chamois, brown hare Lepus europaeus, domestic cattle, red fox Vulpes vulpes, " So yeah, the modern-day obese cattle are prey for even 20kg Lynxes. So it's no wonder that 2 20-25kg Stray Pitbulls (who are actually better in surviving without human intervention than regular Pitbulls because they don't have their food handed out to them) managed to injured one across 2 hours, but even them they failed to kill it in time before Humans arrived lol So you don't think a 750kg Kodiak Bear would have killed that morbidly obese Bull with heart disease? A 500kg Spanish Fighting Bull would have killed it pretty comfortably despite weighting half as the fat Bull. Please provide evidence of an adult bovine being preyed upon by a eurasian lynx. Even a sub-adult. I dare you. Even a 6 month old dairy cow calf. I'll save you time, you won't find it. They would be referring to 2 or 3 cases of a newborn calf being taken. Vague generalised info like that is an extremely poor source. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 7, 2023 22:38:19 GMT
You would find lynx are extremely inefficient and insufficient in killing a moose, lol. A pitbull would be more liable to pull off that kill, inefficiently and sloppily over a drawn out period, but even so this would still be way way way more "efficient" than a lynx's totally failed effort, which would be the reality 1 million out of 1 million times. Did you see the screenshot of a Book written by an experienced Siberian Hunter i posted? Totally silly. That author never got the "never go full retard" memo. |
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