Presa Canario vs Mountain Lion

[s]

Sept 8, 2023 13:56:58 GMT Hardcastle said:

Sept 8, 2023 13:30:28 GMT s said:

You are actually right. Here is an article (in Spanish, just use Google translate) about fights between Lidia Bulls and Alanos. You can see that the Alanos (from what im seeing the bare Minimum needed was 2, as if only one was used Bull could still use half his body to defend itself, as remarked by contemporaries) did manage to subdue the Bulls in certain ocassions but they weren't able to kill them. 

losmitosdeltoro.com/el-perro-en-los-toros/

It is not their application to kill them.

So yeah you can say that is rare and even a mistake when that happens. If you wanted to say it is comparable to a Eurasian lynx killing a moose... eh, I'd still strongly disagree but it's not totally patently false. However the subjugation of nasty bulls which leopards and pumas can't subjugate or kill or do anything to, that is not comparable to a lynx killing a moose, that is comparable to a lynx killing a hare.

How so? Normal Cats kill rabbits pretty frequently. A better comparison would be a Lynx killing a large >150kg Red Deer

[s]

Sept 8, 2023 13:35:41 GMT Hardcastle said:

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Charolais in Montana, as far as the eye can see and beyond is their range, where they live unsupervised for most of the year among brown bears, wolves, pumas, etc, no issue.

These Bulls do live in areas obviously closer to human settlements though. From the perspective of a predator who is wary of humans. Why go so far away to hunt that thing that has humans protecting it when there is already lots of Deer, Elk and other Prey nearby?

www.asahi.com/sp/ajw/articles/14705607

This is an insane case of a Bear killing 30 Cows and Bulls in Japan. So yeah, Cattle Cows and Bulls are not "inmune to Predators", wasn't a huge Brown Bear either, 300kg.

[s]

Insane Kodiak bear predation on cattle, including Charolais:

"The Burtons have been raising cattle on Narrow Cape since 1967. They started with Angus and Herefords, then moved to a mix of Charolais, Belted Galloway, Scottish Highlanders and even a couple of longhorns to see if they could find a breed more bear-resistant."

"None passed the test. Not even the well-armed longhorns."

"From a high of 700 cattle, they've reduced the herd to around 60 head. Along the way, someone suggested that they try raising buffalo. They brought up the first of their bison from Wyoming in 1980; the herd now numbers more than 200."

"Blame that change in emphasis on the Kodiak bear--a fast, wily hunter that is anything but endangered in this region of Alaska"

"Burton compares the way bears take after livestock to cats toying with mice. "If a bear gets around cattle, eventually he'll kill one," he said. "Some just become killer bears."

The weather is wet and windy but mild on Kodiak Island, meaning bears don't always den up in winter. If they do hibernate, it's often for short periods.

"They come out when it warms up," Burton said. "I've lost cattle at all times of the year."

"Predation is simply another of the risks ranchers take in Alaska. But there are losses, and then there are losses."

"One year, out of 600 cattle, we lost well over 100 head--probably 125 head, to bears," Burton said. "One bear killed seven cattle in just one night. On average, we've had about 25 to 30 bear kills a year."

[Hardcastle]

Sept 8, 2023 14:01:46 GMT s said:

Sept 8, 2023 13:56:58 GMT Hardcastle said:

It is not their application to kill them.

So yeah you can say that is rare and even a mistake when that happens. If you wanted to say it is comparable to a Eurasian lynx killing a moose... eh, I'd still strongly disagree but it's not totally patently false. However the subjugation of nasty bulls which leopards and pumas can't subjugate or kill or do anything to, that is not comparable to a lynx killing a moose, that is comparable to a lynx killing a hare.

How so? Normal Cats kill rabbits pretty frequently. A better comparison would be a Lynx killing a large >150kg Red Deer

Working Bulldogs subjugate bulls frequently, like lynx kill hares. It is not an outlier anomalous incident, it's their bread and butter and way of life.
Killing the bull is anomalous. Like a lynx killing a red deer stag. Maybe. At best for the lynx.

[Hardcastle]

Sept 8, 2023 14:08:41 GMT s said:

Sept 8, 2023 13:35:41 GMT Hardcastle said:

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Charolais in Montana, as far as the eye can see and beyond is their range, where they live unsupervised for most of the year among brown bears, wolves, pumas, etc, no issue.

These Bulls do live in areas obviously closer to human settlements though. From the perspective of a predator who is wary of humans. Why go so far away to hunt that thing that has humans protecting it when there is already lots of Deer, Elk and other Prey nearby?

www.asahi.com/sp/ajw/articles/14705607

This is an insane case of a Bear killing 30 Cows and Bulls in Japan. So yeah, Cattle Cows and Bulls are not "inmune to Predators", wasn't a huge Brown Bear either, 300kg.

No..I disagree. Those particular Charolais are not living closer to human settlement than Spanish bulls. You couldn't fit many ranches in Spain if they were larger than these vast ranches in the western United states.
Humans aren't protecting them, you have an unrealistic view of what their life is like. They are out alone deep in the wilderness miles away from people for 6 months at a time, and only because Montana gets buried in metres of snow, it would otherwise be longer like in other parts of the world.

They're not "immune" to predators, but they are viable to be left alone amongst wild predators. Like wild herbivores, only with a higher standard for what kind of predation rate can be tolerated.

You can watch the show "Alaska the last Frontier" and see cattle of various types, including Charolais and Angus and Hereford and etc being left alone "at the head of the bay", miles away from home, for most of the year, while coastal giant brown bears walk amongst them. The juveniles and the odd cow might have bear scrapes on their backs from failed predation attempts when it's time to round them up.

[s]

Sept 8, 2023 14:53:03 GMT Hardcastle said:

Sept 8, 2023 14:08:41 GMT s said:

These Bulls do live in areas obviously closer to human settlements though. From the perspective of a predator who is wary of humans. Why go so far away to hunt that thing that has humans protecting it when there is already lots of Deer, Elk and other Prey nearby?

www.asahi.com/sp/ajw/articles/14705607

This is an insane case of a Bear killing 30 Cows and Bulls in Japan. So yeah, Cattle Cows and Bulls are not "inmune to Predators", wasn't a huge Brown Bear either, 300kg.

No..I disagree. Those particular Charolais are not living closer to human settlement than Spanish bulls. You couldn't fit many ranches in Spain if they were larger than these vast ranches in the western United states.
Humans aren't protecting them, you have an unrealistic view of what their life is like. They are out alone deep in the wilderness miles away from people for 6 months at a time, and only because Montana gets buried in metres of snow, it would otherwise be longer like in other parts of the world.

They're not "immune" to predators, but they are viable to be left alone amongst wild predators. Like wild herbivores, only with a higher standard for what kind of predation rate can be tolerated.

You can watch the show "Alaska the last Frontier" and see cattle of various types, including Charolais and Angus and Hereford and etc being left alone "at the head of the bay", miles away from home, for most of the year, while coastal giant brown bears walk amongst them. The juveniles and the odd cow might have bear scrapes on their backs from failed predation attempts when it's time to round them up.

I literally posted sources of Kodiak Bears decimating Charolais and other huge Cattle Bulls lol

[Hardcastle]

So what? Im posting countless examples of them thriving in bear country. They never actually mention bulls either.

Losing 1 in six is bad by cattle breeder standards but it's not bad by wild herbivore standards. 5 of the 6 are still successfully fending off bear attack. These people seem to be exaggerating as ranchers always do, but also dumb as hell trying belted Galloways, the single smallest most helpless novelty boutique cow in the world, that's like a joke. Other ranchers are doing much better with just as many coastal brown bears among their herds. Including having no losses whatsoever some years and with bears right there and failed predation signs on the cattle. It's the entire point of the show Alaska the last Frontier. Cattle thriving in coastal brown bear country unsupervised and unprotected and left alone.

[s]

Sept 8, 2023 15:44:53 GMT Hardcastle said:

So what? Im posting countless examples of them thriving in bear country. They never actually mention bulls either.

Losing 1 in six is bad by cattle breeder standards but it's not bad by wild herbivore standards. 5 of the 6 are still successfully fending off bear attack. These people seem to be exaggerating as ranchers always do, but also dumb as hell trying belted Galloways, the single smallest most helpless novelty boutique cow in the world, that's like a joke. Other ranchers are doing much better with just as many coastal brown bears among their herds. Including having no losses whatsoever some years and with bears right there and failed predation signs on the cattle. It's the entire point of the show Alaska the last Frontier. Cattle thriving in coastal brown bear country unsupervised and unprotected and left alone.

A Kodiak Bear doesn't need to kill multiple cattle hundreds of kilos each to not be hungry lol. One is more than enough for a couple days. Also check that Japan example of a single ~300kg Brown Bear killing 30 Bulls and Cows

[Hardcastle]

Says dairy cattle. Go try and milk a bull.

[s]

Sept 8, 2023 15:54:37 GMT Hardcastle said:

Says dairy cattle. Go try and milk a bull.

The fact it killed so many cows makes it obvious at least one bull was among them. 

[s]

So according to you if those Bulls had been raised unsupervised and unprotected in "Feral Pitbull country" (no such thing, hypothethical i made up since i want your opinion) instead of Bear country they would have had a mortality rate of 95% or something, lol?

[ophio]

Sept 8, 2023 15:58:58 GMT s said:

So according to you if those Bulls had been raised unsupervised and unprotected in "Feral Pitbull country" (no such thing, hypothethical i made up since i want your opinion) instead of Bear country they would have had a mortality rate of 95% or something, lol?

These bulls were being attacked by kodiak bears which are far more numerous and almost twice as large as grizzly bears in the contiguous USA which are more or less the same size as male lions. 

[s]

My point precisely is that while a Wild Predators' sucess rate against a Huge Bovine is probaby quite low (this is not an exception btw. Except for some specific small game hunters like black footed cat almost all Predators have sucessful killing rates before 50%). Don't act like Pitbulls are some sort of Mega-duper-super-predator with a 101% sucessful predation rate, in fact the sucessful predation rate of feral Bulldogs is probably below average, as they are too slow to catch prey and too unintelligent to effectively form packs. You also heavily overestimate Domestic Cattle and claim that no Predator would kill them most of the time, when i posted cases of smallish Bears ravaging through Cows.

Attacking cattle is not a marker of how good a Predator is lol, Coyotes and Dingoes attack Cattle more than Wolves simply because they live closer to Human populations, does that mean they are stronger than Wolves?

Most impressive thing Stray Dogs have done was killing 14 cow calves, that couldn't even fight back:



As for Bulls, you keep smugly claiming that no Wild Predator is likely to kill that Charolais Bull (false, would be a tall order but seeing how Lions have sucessfully tackled Cape Buffalo, or Bears ocassionally killing Male Moose or Bison, all 3 being more impressive and more dangerous it's disputable at best), homever even in your beloved example the 2 Pitbulls failed to kill that Bull. Even while attacking through 2 hours. Most impressive thing Pitbulls have actually killed are domesticated Llamas, Horses and Cattle Cows.

[grippingwhiteness]

Sept 7, 2023 19:34:47 GMT CoolJohnson said:

Sept 4, 2023 19:29:21 GMT grippingwhiteness said:

There's a few corrections to be done.

Largest male leopard reliably reported was Alborz, 98 kg with a wirst cut off and pretty much in an unhealthy state of not eating for two weeks (even started eating its own limbs due to the stress of being in quarantine) . Despite this he was still enormous and weighed 98 kg (besting the 96 kg weight of the Namibian male) but if healthy and well fed in nature he surely was a 100+ kg outlier, as the vet Imam Memarian and Kamiz Baradarani told me, you should put therefore 100 kg as maximum barrier.

I also disagree on "60-78 kg" being "large males", north iranian leopards average at 72.8 kg (I finally collected all weights from North Iran with the help of a persian veterinary) and you can see they reach costantly weights of 70-80 kg. They are very large beasts

~98 kg for one critically injured male named Alborz~ Alborz, Imam Memariam 2014,

~90 kg for an adult male from Central Asia, Harrington 1977,

~88 kg for an adult deceased male from Northern Iran, 

~86 kg for an adult male from Golestan NP,

~80 kg (bottomed and broke the scale) for an adult male weighef by Dr Farhadina, Tandoureh NP 

~80 kg for an adult male weighef by D. Laylin, engaged in a program for trapping leopards in Iran and transferring them from one region to another.

~79 kg for and adult male weighed by Imam Memariam 

~75 kg for an adult male from Tandoureh NP, by Mohammad Farhadina.

~75 kg for an adult male in Tandoureh NP, Future4Leopards December 6, 2016.

~74 kg for an adult male in critical condition from a village named Varian in the Alborz mountains.

~72,5 for an adult male radio-collared in Ashkur-Rudsar-Gilan Province,

~70 kg for an adult male from northern Iran, collared and released on Tuesday 16 May 2017. 

~66 kg for an adult male from Chapar-Ghoymeh;

~ 65.8 kg for 22 Males

~64 kg for a young male from Golestan NP

~57 kg for an old male named Borzoo in Tandoureh. In early night of 5 February 2015.

~52 kg for an adult male named Kaveh in NP, NE Iran. MyJourneyWithPersianLeopards

~47.5 kg for an adult male, it was significantly dehydrated and had elevated capillary perfusion, was cachectic, with pale mucus membranes, third-eyelid protrusion, and bilaterally enlarged submandibular lymph nodes.

Average : ~72.8 kg for 20 males originating from Northern Iran, note it could even raise if I excluded the 47.5 kg male but I included it despite being in a very bad state, which is the same for Alborz the largest male around 100 kg (98 kg) in bad state, which certainly weighed more and slightly above 100 kg when healthy.

Note this other table that included males from central and southern iran (small ones, they average around 50 kg in those areas) but still had 3 males in the 90-95 kg range.

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You also have Okonjima male leopards from Namibia, they average at 68 kgs according to this old table.
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New weighs have been gathered so I sampled them all, the average didn't change :

84 kg "N/A" 

82 kg "Mawenzi"

79 kg "N/A" 

76.8 kg "Neo"

76 kg "Madiba"

76 kg "N/A" 

73 kg "Sefu" 

69 kg "Kobo" 

67 kg "N/A" 

65 kg "Nkozi" 

65 kg "Bwana" 

76.8 kg "Neo"

64 kg "Jagu"

64 kg "Mafana"

59 kg "N/A"

58.5 kg Nuka

55 kg "Paka"

47.8 kg "Kit"

Average = 68.3 kg for 18 males .

Another African population that produces very impressive and large males is Kwazulu natal in south africa, where males averaged 68 kg including young adults and 72.25 kg for prime males.

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This is my modified version of your table:

Type I (29-48kg): average females and sub-adults

Type II (48-72kg): Large females, average males

Type III (72-86kg): Large males

Type IV (86-100kg): Exceptional males

grippingwhiteness

Can you cite all the sources for all those North Iran leopard weights?

You could make one of those animal size Charts live Guate Gojira in Wildfact.

All the weights come exactly from WildFact lol, funnily enough. With few exceptions. One is from a study published on research gate whereas the rest come from my personal communications with Imam Memariam and Kambiz, respectively a veterinarian and a biologist/rescuer who weighed and captured these cats 

The small 47.5 kg male
www.researchgate.net/publication/228082645_Detection_of_Hepatozoon_sp_in_a_Persian_Leopard_Panthera_pardus_ciscaucasica

The huge 79 kg male


74 kg



64 kg


73 kg

[s]

I think most a Bulldog can kill in a reasonable amount of time is fat unagressive cattle that gets it's food handed over to it. Not Robust free-ranging Cattle.

It's merely physical constraint. If their teeth was longer and more dagger-like perhaps that would change. But for now their dentition is just slighty superior to that of Coyotes.