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Post by grippingwhiteness on Sept 6, 2023 12:14:39 GMT
One thing I MIGHT do though is playing it like I actually hate the animal, but I have got no personal stuff for that matter, it's just a "trap" and just about looks. You've seen that happening for good in my war with Wyatt, getting the best result I can have. Wyatt was extremely naive giving me everything I wanted.It all started with me debating with him about how unimpressive wolves are in terms of strength and muscularity, while very firmly debunking any of his idiotic claims of 180-200+ lb wolves. He didn't like that, at all, so he turned hostile and started attacking what he considered was my favourite animal (the cougar, which is not, the leopard is my favourite) with actual aggressiveness. Since I've dealt with idiots of this kind I started playing his own game and making fun of wolves calling them thin, anorexic with limbs thinner than a straw and comparing them to cougars as if you compared a skinny guy to David Laid. And since he even brought up Guanacos stomping (not killing tho) cougars as an account to mock them, I brought up accounts of mooses and deer killing wolves my smashing their skulls (from a recent account now in ITALY even a cervid as unimpressive as a roedeer has killed a wolf, dang if only I knew about this before Wyatt would have shot himself) as defense. He immediately freaked out as a response, calling me a wolf hater. Hypocrite much? That's what was my goal, proving he's just a hypocrite diehard fanboy. And he obviously never ever challenged me again and wanted to quit even from here despite me not being on here yet. Totally owned.
So yes, I can act as if I "hate" an animal but I do it just to play my opponent's game to make him/her just rage more. And it works, all the time.
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 6, 2023 12:40:32 GMT
Shout out and apologies to PumAcinonyx SuperCat honestly. Respect where it's due, the debate was difficult enough for me to procrastinate to a point where now I can't even remember what we were talking about. Weren't you also supposed to debate him? Don't put this all on me, lol. Supercat is a solid guy I respect a lot, which frankly can be a turn off for debates. Espinola and AE are really riling me up (and would absolutely LOVE to get my hands on Avian, my god...). I get inspired and motivated when people are really stupidly wrong and I can emphatically correct them. That makes me explode into action. Supercat is almost too reasonable. You are now too. We can still have interesting discussions but the "heated debate" is difficult when I don't think my opponent is an idiot. Is there any data on the weights of leopards near Nuwara Eliya/Central Province? Or did Smut kill them all? (jokes jokes) There was a sample of weights of like 10- 12 males originating from Sri Lanka averaging 127 lbs with the largest one being 170 lbs, and I guess it does originate from southern regions but not from Yala or HP because data from there lacks disgustingly com-ple-te-ly. So it seems that even central and Northern Sri Lankan leopards are unstudied but I'd bet they average, similarly to indian males, as heavy as 120-125+ lbs and max around 170 lbs. They also feed on smaller preys as HP and Yala leopards prey REGULARLY on Sambar deer stags (the largest deer species on tropical asia) and both cattle and even nearly adult buffaloes. Gives you an idea why they'd grow larger than normal sri Lankan leopards based on how they prey on larger preys and visually grow definitely larger. My guess is that they'd rival males from Namibian Okonjima and Kwa Zulu Natal in south Africa, which both have access to wild prey and cattle, and average 150 lbs. I do not think they'd average as high as North Iranian males where they average as high as 160 lbs (n=20). I think North Iranian males and Kenyan Highlands leopards (Lake Nakuru -Aberdare range from where the 204 lb male and estimated 200-220 lb male whose skull equation gives 218-230 lb as estimate originate) are the largest leopards on earth. Historically in modern times the Barbary leopard was a valid contender aswell, but now it's either critically endangered (so no reason why I'd believe there's an healthy population) or extinct. Baker mentions the leopards in his area of Nuwara Eliya regularly preying on sambar stags and even killing the local native "bullocks" by breaking their necks (specifically says it is a myth they use "paw swipe" to do this, and instead use their whole body weight in a grab and twist). He does mention the local cattle are not large and says the imported english breeds of cattle are usually too big when full grown to be killed outright, but mentions at least one case where one was brutalised by leopard attack to the point of needing euthanasia. Actually, I just now while searching found where he specifically mentions the size of the leopards he encounters- |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 6, 2023 12:41:46 GMT
One thing I MIGHT do though is playing it like I actually hate the animal, but I have got no personal stuff for that matter, it's just a "trap" and just about looks. You've seen that happening for good in my war with Wyatt, getting the best result I can have. Wyatt was extremely naive giving me everything I wanted.It all started with me debating with him about how unimpressive wolves are in terms of strength and muscularity, while very firmly debunking any of his idiotic claims of 180-200+ lb wolves. He didn't like that, at all, so he turned hostile and started attacking what he considered was my favourite animal (the cougar, which is not, the leopard is my favourite) with actual aggressiveness. Since I've dealt with idiots of this kind I started playing his own game and making fun of wolves calling them thin, anorexic with limbs thinner than a straw and comparing them to cougars as if you compared a skinny guy to David Laid. And since he even brought up Guanacos stomping (not killing tho) cougars as an account to mock them, I brought up accounts of mooses and deer killing wolves my smashing their skulls (from a recent account now in ITALY even a cervid as unimpressive as a roedeer has killed a wolf, dang if only I knew about this before Wyatt would have shot himself) as defense. He immediately freaked out as a response, calling me a wolf hater. Hypocrite much? That's what was my goal, proving he's just a hypocrite diehard fanboy. And he obviously never ever challenged me again and wanted to quit even from here despite me not being on here yet. Totally owned. So yes, I can act as if I "hate" an animal but I do it just to play my opponent's game to make him/her just rage more. And it works, all the time. It should always be understood I don't really personally "hate" the animal, it is 100% to mess with the person and hurt them when I am insulting their preferred "hero" animal. |
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Post by grippingwhiteness on Sept 6, 2023 14:00:42 GMT
There was a sample of weights of like 10- 12 males originating from Sri Lanka averaging 127 lbs with the largest one being 170 lbs, and I guess it does originate from southern regions but not from Yala or HP because data from there lacks disgustingly com-ple-te-ly. So it seems that even central and Northern Sri Lankan leopards are unstudied but I'd bet they average, similarly to indian males, as heavy as 120-125+ lbs and max around 170 lbs. They also feed on smaller preys as HP and Yala leopards prey REGULARLY on Sambar deer stags (the largest deer species on tropical asia) and both cattle and even nearly adult buffaloes. Gives you an idea why they'd grow larger than normal sri Lankan leopards based on how they prey on larger preys and visually grow definitely larger. My guess is that they'd rival males from Namibian Okonjima and Kwa Zulu Natal in south Africa, which both have access to wild prey and cattle, and average 150 lbs. I do not think they'd average as high as North Iranian males where they average as high as 160 lbs (n=20). I think North Iranian males and Kenyan Highlands leopards (Lake Nakuru -Aberdare range from where the 204 lb male and estimated 200-220 lb male whose skull equation gives 218-230 lb as estimate originate) are the largest leopards on earth. Historically in modern times the Barbary leopard was a valid contender aswell, but now it's either critically endangered (so no reason why I'd believe there's an healthy population) or extinct. Baker mentions the leopards in his area of Nuwara Eliya regularly preying on sambar stags and even killing the local native "bullocks" by breaking their necks (specifically says it is a myth they use "paw swipe" to do this, and instead use their whole body weight in a grab and twist). He does mention the local cattle are not large and says the imported english breeds of cattle are usually too big when full grown to be killed outright, but mentions at least one case where one was brutalised by leopard attack to the point of needing euthanasia. Actually, I just now while searching found where he specifically mentions the size of the leopards he encounters- I'm actually impressed, very impressed, a leopard breaking the neck of such animal? And mortally injuring a fully grown english cattle? Can you please give me the extract with a screenshot, I seriously need it for Balam. Lol. Doesn't this account change a bit your perspective of how leopard can be put as "problem animal" for cattle and livestock? |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 6, 2023 14:20:19 GMT
Baker mentions the leopards in his area of Nuwara Eliya regularly preying on sambar stags and even killing the local native "bullocks" by breaking their necks (specifically says it is a myth they use "paw swipe" to do this, and instead use their whole body weight in a grab and twist). He does mention the local cattle are not large and says the imported english breeds of cattle are usually too big when full grown to be killed outright, but mentions at least one case where one was brutalised by leopard attack to the point of needing euthanasia. Actually, I just now while searching found where he specifically mentions the size of the leopards he encounters- I'm actually impressed, very impressed, a leopard breaking the neck of such animal? And mortally injuring a fully grown english cattle? Can you please give me the extract with a screenshot, I seriously need it for Balam. Lol. Doesn't this account change a bit your perspective of how leopard can be put as "problem animal" for cattle and livestock? Actually I got a detail wrong, the english cow wasn't euthanised, it died after several days-  On the other hand a smaller native cow did also wreck a leopard-  So overall I am impressed, but I'm impressed that the leopard can "over-achieve" like this, and I still think the overall picture indicates they aren't built to tackle large bovines. I think smaller asiatic zebu style cattle are under their umbrella from what Baker says, it is not an uncommon thing. BUT he is still being pretty clear that big "taurus" cattle are a little much for them, which to be fair they say is pretty true for jaguars as well and brazilian ranchers are making a switch from zebu cattle to taurus cattle and having good results in drastically reducing predation. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 6, 2023 15:20:19 GMT
This is an ayrshire cow btw, it is nothing crazy-  Then you have people like s acting like a 50 lbs pet pitbull bringing a charolais bull that weighs 3000+ lbs to the edge of death is "nothing".  That ^ is an insane accomplishment. If anything Baker's testimony makes it quite clear (as do all other indications) that things like that ^ DO NOT get preyed on by leopards and neither do they get preyed on by jaguars according to many scientific studies on the matter. Tigers and lions better be right on their game to pull it off, it is quite unlikely they will, but yes possible for 450 lbs cats. The aptitude of bulldogs/boarhounds for the subjugation of big game is clearly elite, in general, and especially in relation to their size. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 6, 2023 16:24:56 GMT
Chui is back btw, offtopic Btw, Where? I didn't see him post? |
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Post by grippingwhiteness on Sept 7, 2023 8:05:35 GMT
Chui is back btw, offtopic Btw, Where? I didn't see him post? Leopard vs Sumatran tigress |
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Post by s on Sept 7, 2023 15:57:14 GMT
This is an ayrshire cow btw, it is nothing crazy- Then you have people like s acting like a 50 lbs pet pitbull bringing a charolais bull that weighs 3000+ lbs to the edge of death is "nothing". It's about as impressive as you or me beating up a 300kg morbidly obese person on the hospital bed that can barely move or punch back. |
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Post by s on Sept 7, 2023 16:00:28 GMT
"Similar to increasing obesity in human populations, modern beef cattle production practices in the United States and Canada have achieved historic slaughter and carcass weights through combinations of genetic selection and intensive nutritional programs using megacalorie corn-based rations.11 Strong similarities exist between body mass morphometrics of obese humans and fattened cattle, where cattle grading Choice or Prime (the most sought after grades for human consumption) have > 30% body fat12 with enhanced accumulation of intramuscular adipose depots. These alterations in body morphometry have been accompanied by increased incidence of HF. HF deaths increased from 2 to 4 per 10,000 during 2000–2012 in 15 North American feedyards encompassing 1.56 million cattle.13 Further, HF typically occurs late in the feeding cycle,13,14 a phase characterized by maximal growth and accretion of adipose.15 A longitudinal study of pulmonary arterial pressures (PAP) in Angus steers aged 6–18 months showed the greatest increase in PAPs occurred during the fattening phase,13 suggesting susceptible individuals may be predisposed to increased risk of obesity-associated PH-LHD."
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Post by s on Sept 7, 2023 16:05:48 GMT
"Based on these observations, we hypothesized that fattened beef cattle may provide a naturally occurring large animal model of PH-LHD. In this report, we present histopathologic findings from postmortem specimens of animals diagnosed with congestive heart failure (CHF), compared to asymptomatic controls of equivalent age and feeding practices, that recapitulate cardinal findings observed in human PH-LHD; namely, LV fibrosis, coronary vascular injury, and pulmonary venous remodeling. These findings were accompanied by evidence of attendant PA and RV remodeling, including striking muscularization, medial hypertrophy, adventitial expansion, and vasa vasorum hyperplasia in the PA circulation, together with RV fibrosis. Fibrotic transformation in the LV and RV myocardium was closely approximated with adipose depots and likewise adipose depots were characterized by mononuclear infiltrates, enhanced extracellular matrix, and frequently adipocytes encircled remodeled coronary arteries. The clinical diagnosis of CHF was confirmed microscopically by characteristic hepatic chronic passive congestion, centrilobular atrophy, and necrosis observed in end-stage disease."
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Post by s on Sept 7, 2023 16:06:50 GMT
"on site postmortem examination of 15 commercial crossbred yearlings (11 steers, three heifers, one sex unknown not indicated at submission) occurred at low to moderate elevation feedyards (544-1420 m) in southeast Wyoming, northeast Colorado, and western Nebraska (See supplementary Table 1, online). Participating feedyards employed cattle feeding and marketing practices typical of the fed cattle industry with the capacity to simultaneously feed as many as 60,000 cattle. Economic and personnel constraints prohibited blood collection and invasive cardiopulmonary assessment of symptomatic animals, eliminating the need for institutional animal use and care approved protocols"
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Post by s on Sept 7, 2023 19:00:13 GMT
Best vs best, indicating the presence of the most powerful and aggressive specimen for both sides, I think that dog chances stop definitely around 120-130 lbs against a leopard or a cougar. At these sizes I think the cats, if portrayed by the most aggressive and "macho" males, are just too good and formidable in explosiveness and defense for any dog their size, larger or smaller. We aren't far off. I start favouring leopards around 120 lbs, but saying the dog's "chances stop" at 120 lbs is obviously a little different. I'd say the felids chances stop under 105 lbs against a decent boarhound or bulldog. I think some rare dogs above 120 could still potentially pull off victories. I think realistic chances of a Dog winning against a Puma/Leopard, even a working Bully Kuta with lots of fighting experience end when the Puma/Leopard gets to 70kg (155lbs) Beginning at 45-50kg (100-110lbs) i start to favour Felines over the best Dog breeds in that range at parity or even a slight weight disadvantage. |
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Post by s on Sept 7, 2023 19:03:00 GMT
A 70kg Puma/Leopard is not huge, it's akin to a 185cm Human. Pretty above average but not insane.
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Post by CoolJohnson on Sept 7, 2023 19:34:47 GMT
Alright i made a Leopard scale, just like the Puma scale there are 4 tiers based on weight and each tier has the same range (18kg), that way all tiers are fundamental and none are filler or merely transitional. Im using African Leopards Type I (24-42kg): Average females and Sub-adults Type II (42-60kg): Average males and large females Type III (60-78kg): Large males Type IV (78-96kg): Exceptional males There's a few corrections to be done. Largest male leopard reliably reported was Alborz, 98 kg with a wirst cut off and pretty much in an unhealthy state of not eating for two weeks (even started eating its own limbs due to the stress of being in quarantine) . Despite this he was still enormous and weighed 98 kg (besting the 96 kg weight of the Namibian male) but if healthy and well fed in nature he surely was a 100+ kg outlier, as the vet Imam Memarian and Kamiz Baradarani told me, you should put therefore 100 kg as maximum barrier. I also disagree on "60-78 kg" being "large males", north iranian leopards average at 72.8 kg (I finally collected all weights from North Iran with the help of a persian veterinary) and you can see they reach costantly weights of 70-80 kg. They are very large beasts ~98 kg for one critically injured male named Alborz~ Alborz, Imam Memariam 2014, ~90 kg for an adult male from Central Asia, Harrington 1977, ~88 kg for an adult deceased male from Northern Iran, ~86 kg for an adult male from Golestan NP, ~80 kg (bottomed and broke the scale) for an adult male weighef by Dr Farhadina, Tandoureh NP ~80 kg for an adult male weighef by D. Laylin, engaged in a program for trapping leopards in Iran and transferring them from one region to another. ~79 kg for and adult male weighed by Imam Memariam ~75 kg for an adult male from Tandoureh NP, by Mohammad Farhadina. ~75 kg for an adult male in Tandoureh NP, Future4Leopards December 6, 2016. ~74 kg for an adult male in critical condition from a village named Varian in the Alborz mountains. ~72,5 for an adult male radio-collared in Ashkur-Rudsar-Gilan Province, ~70 kg for an adult male from northern Iran, collared and released on Tuesday 16 May 2017. ~66 kg for an adult male from Chapar-Ghoymeh; ~ 65.8 kg for 22 Males ~64 kg for a young male from Golestan NP ~57 kg for an old male named Borzoo in Tandoureh. In early night of 5 February 2015. ~52 kg for an adult male named Kaveh in NP, NE Iran. MyJourneyWithPersianLeopards ~47.5 kg for an adult male, it was significantly dehydrated and had elevated capillary perfusion, was cachectic, with pale mucus membranes, third-eyelid protrusion, and bilaterally enlarged submandibular lymph nodes.
Average : ~72.8 kg for 20 males originating from Northern Iran, note it could even raise if I excluded the 47.5 kg male but I included it despite being in a very bad state, which is the same for Alborz the largest male around 100 kg (98 kg) in bad state, which certainly weighed more and slightly above 100 kg when healthy. Note this other table that included males from central and southern iran (small ones, they average around 50 kg in those areas) but still had 3 males in the 90-95 kg range. View AttachmentYou also have Okonjima male leopards from Namibia, they average at 68 kgs according to this old table. View AttachmentNew weighs have been gathered so I sampled them all, the average didn't change : 84 kg "N/A" 82 kg "Mawenzi" 79 kg "N/A" 76.8 kg "Neo" 76 kg "Madiba" 76 kg "N/A" 73 kg "Sefu" 69 kg "Kobo" 67 kg "N/A" 65 kg "Nkozi" 65 kg "Bwana" 76.8 kg "Neo" 64 kg "Jagu" 64 kg "Mafana" 59 kg "N/A" 58.5 kg Nuka 55 kg "Paka" 47.8 kg "Kit" Average = 68.3 kg for 18 males . Another African population that produces very impressive and large males is Kwazulu natal in south africa, where males averaged 68 kg including young adults and 72.25 kg for prime males. View AttachmentThis is my modified version of your table: Type I (29-48kg): average females and sub-adults
Type II (48-72kg): Large females, average males
Type III (72-86kg): Large males
Type IV (86-100kg): Exceptional males
Can you cite all the sources for all those North Iran leopard weights? You could make one of those animal size Charts live Guate Gojira in Wildfact. |
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