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Post by Hardcastle on Aug 3, 2023 2:34:52 GMT
So they didn't kill the tiger but just tire it out to make it out back in order by humans? Makes more sense because I barely believe that considering the abyssal size difference they could do even little of serious damage, considering also the fact that dogs of this type barely have teeth able to tear apart and that well the neck girth of a tiger is so large in comparison that a mouthful of it will give the tiger general tickles more than other. Yes, basically. I mean I think you are slightly over-selling how utterly unbothered a tiger will be by dog bites, BUT yes such dogs are more about "taking the fight out" of dangerous animals, rather than "killing them". Terriers are killers, and sighthounds are killers, gripping dogs are for draining the fight out of big dangerous animals, and then a human can casually approach the helpless animal and kill it with a knife. That's the basic premise of gripping dogs. HOWEVER they often get crossed with terriers and sighthounds and this, whether intentionally or unintentionally, DOES improve their killing ability. And many terriers and sighthounds have improved their subjugation ability with gripper outcrossing as well. "wolfhounds" are practically bull lurchers in reality, just on the sleeker side, and old school bloodhounds (again, no connection to scenthound bloodhounds) are bull lurchers on the heavy side. Their application at this circus was obviously not to kill valuable animals or even injure them, just to subdue them. However, I always felt this is actually more impressive in many ways. Imagine if Mike Tyson was in a rage trashing a hotel room and going totally ballistic, and it is your job to stop him. Which is harder; killing him, or using non-lethal force to subdue him? Keep in mind, he is fully allowed to kill you, but you have to try and take the fight out of him and not kill him or hurt him. That's actually way harder than just killing him, requires way more fighting ability, and that is why bulldogs are the best true fighters in the animal kingdom. Something might kill them, nothing is going to truly out-fight them. Everything that will beat them will do so by bypassing the fight and ending it early with a lethal finish. What they have sacrificed in killing ability they gained in fighting ability, as a direct cause and effect consequence. It is implied they all survived the encounter, which I don't find difficult to believe. It is described that they immediately rushed upon the tiger and seized holds of its forelimbs and head and neck. At that point the offensive capabilities of the tiger were greatly handicapped and diminished, and all it could really do was struggle to try and get free. The dogs had to weather that struggle, and no doubt got some scrapes here and there from probably the rear limbs, but largely most of the worst things the tiger could do were nullified by their anchoring holds. 4 X 120+ lbs anchors on all your favourite weapons. Its not really implausible at all that the tiger was unable to do decisive damage. I do agree with you the dogs likely did minimal to no physical damage as well, probably less physical damage than was done to them, but I think all 5 "participants" were probably basically fine. The tiger however would have been very exhausted and sorry for himself IMO. I'm not too hung up on that. Tigers are big. I don't read it as suggesting it was unusually big for a tiger. I would say the mention of big implies full grown, but nothing more. They don't have to hold it still, they have to hold it, then they are more than happy to go for a ride. They serve as anchors weighing on the tiger and making every move it makes more laborious and tiring. Its poor stamina is compromised even further. It uses its energy trying to free its limbs or shake its head and neck free, but to no avail. Then it tries to get a breather and the dogs start shaking their holds, and though its true that it won't do much damage, it hurts enough to trigger the tiger's self preservation and it exerts itself again struggling to free itself. At which point the dogs rest again while it struggles, and so the dance continues. Apparently for an hour and a half, yes that sounds like a lot to me as well, but I guess it is possible the tiger would rest while getting chewed and then explode again intermittently and the people weren't safe to take control until it was fully out of gas. Maybe it took that long before it fully stopped "reoffending" with spazz outs. Then again the time could be exaggerrated, I dunno. But generally and overall I find the story plausible. A tiger is extremely lethal and dangerous and powerful and all the rest, but if it is held and anchored by 4 big dogs on its main weapons I can see it being neutralised and unable to effectively enact its devastating attacks. Over the decades I have fought with cat fans on this, and all fans of all sorts of animals in fact, how they don't understand an animal can't just always "press the button" on its special finishing move. It has to be in he position to do it. Its like how Jean Claude Van Damme has an incredible roundhouse kick, by the logic of many animal fans he could beat anyone any time by just pressing the "spinning roundhouse kick" button and immediately kick his opponent's head off and therefore he is the best most invincible fighter. No, it doesn't work like that, he would need to set it up and work his opponent into a vulnerable position that is optimal for him to launch and land his roundhouse kick. A tiger can easily kill any dog, but not at any time from any position or despite having dogs hanging off its paws and head. I don't know what to tell you other than "I'm not surprised". The AvA community would absolutely have a stroke and turn inside out, what do you think got me on this dog path? I started passionate about wild animals, but simultaneously coming from a gripping dog culture. The repeated disrespect and underestimating of gripping dog is what drove me towards being passionate about gripping dogs. When it comes to "subjugation", which is what the story describes, they are not rivalled in the wild animal kingdom. They are elite specialist experts at subduing dangerous wild animals, that is their thing that they do, thats why they exist. So when people are like "you expect me to believe a domestic dog won't immediately die in the face of a wild animal", it is a bit like saying "you expect me to believe that measly hammer can strike a nail made of iron into solid wood? That's preposterous!!". A tiger is right on the cusp of what this "tool" can be used against (big ones, and in groups of 4) and ofcourse it is extremely hazardous. But it still shouldn't be a surprise when they successfully do what they exist to do. But yes, the AvA community would be incredulous, absolutely agree. Wild animal people, by definition, of course admire and elevate the prowess of wild beasts. That is their passion. It was mine too, but the disrespect repeatedly shown towards dog whittled away at my spirit over decades, and here I am. I don't know, maybe the number needed for a huge male leopard is the same as a tiger, the reality doesn't always follow expectations. "but a gaur is so big ... you must need.... a.. a thousand bulldogs!!!", no just one. That'll do. I don't know what the number is for a leopard, but the number for a lion was established in ancient times and that number was 4. link Here we have 4 subduing a tiger. Story checks out for me. I also want to point out we have no motivation here for exaggerration in the dogs favour. The dogs are mentioned very fleetingly and with little fanfare, they aren't the "star" of the story, the tiger is. There's no push or desire to inflate dog ability, not at all. The story is- some crazy shit happened with a tiger, it went ballistic and wreaked all sorts of havoc, but finally with great trouble and difficulty we eventually we got it under control. The dogs are merely the humble tool used, and they are given no special celebration. They aren't the point. It IMO makes no sense to read that story and suggest they are inflating or embellishing dog ability. Inflating the tiger? Maybe. Not saying they are, but they have motivation for the sensationalism of the story, so perhaps this "big" tiger was just a totally regular tiger. That's possible, they DO have reason to hype it up. They have no reason to hype up the dogs, and they don't. I'd say they did what it says they did, it doesn't conflict with my understanding of such dogs at all. Does it exceed the limits of what most AVA people think dogs can do? Yep. What part of that should surprise me? What do you think I've been saying for 20 years? What made you think it was two separate fights with the leopard? I kind of assumed it killed two in one failed subjugation attempt. Which I find plausible, on any given day that could happen, the tiger could also decimate 4 on any given day (and for the record I could even see a tiger decimating 10 on any given day). But the dogs are supposed to be able to subdue big dangerous animals and I'm therefore not surprised when they do their job and succeed. |
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Post by grippingwhiteness on Aug 4, 2023 16:58:29 GMT
So they didn't kill the tiger but just tire it out to make it out back in order by humans? Makes more sense because I barely believe that considering the abyssal size difference they could do even little of serious damage, considering also the fact that dogs of this type barely have teeth able to tear apart and that well the neck girth of a tiger is so large in comparison that a mouthful of it will give the tiger general tickles more than other. Yes, basically. I mean I think you are slightly over-selling how utterly unbothered a tiger will be by dog bites, BUT yes such dogs are more about "taking the fight out" of dangerous animals, rather than "killing them". Terriers are killers, and sighthounds are killers, gripping dogs are for draining the fight out of big dangerous animals, and then a human can casually approach the helpless animal and kill it with a knife. That's the basic premise of gripping dogs. HOWEVER they often get crossed with terriers and sighthounds and this, whether intentionally or unintentionally, DOES improve their killing ability. And many terriers and sighthounds have improved their subjugation ability with gripper outcrossing as well. "wolfhounds" are practically bull lurchers in reality, just on the sleeker side, and old school bloodhounds (again, no connection to scenthound bloodhounds) are bull lurchers on the heavy side. Their application at this circus was obviously not to kill valuable animals or even injure them, just to subdue them. However, I always felt this is actually more impressive in many ways. Imagine if Mike Tyson was in a rage trashing a hotel room and going totally ballistic, and it is your job to stop him. Which is harder; killing him, or using non-lethal force to subdue him? Keep in mind, he is fully allowed to kill you, but you have to try and take the fight out of him and not kill him or hurt him. That's actually way harder than just killing him, requires way more fighting ability, and that is why bulldogs are the best true fighters in the animal kingdom. Something might kill them, nothing is going to truly out-fight them. Everything that will beat them will do so by bypassing the fight and ending it early with a lethal finish. What they have sacrificed in killing ability they gained in fighting ability, as a direct cause and effect consequence. It is implied they all survived the encounter, which I don't find difficult to believe. It is described that they immediately rushed upon the tiger and seized holds of its forelimbs and head and neck. At that point the offensive capabilities of the tiger were greatly handicapped and diminished, and all it could really do was struggle to try and get free. The dogs had to weather that struggle, and no doubt got some scrapes here and there from probably the rear limbs, but largely most of the worst things the tiger could do were nullified by their anchoring holds. 4 X 120+ lbs anchors on all your favourite weapons. Its not really implausible at all that the tiger was unable to do decisive damage. I do agree with you the dogs likely did minimal to no physical damage as well, probably less physical damage than was done to them, but I think all 5 "participants" were probably basically fine. The tiger however would have been very exhausted and sorry for himself IMO. I'm not too hung up on that. Tigers are big. I don't read it as suggesting it was unusually big for a tiger. I would say the mention of big implies full grown, but nothing more. They don't have to hold it still, they have to hold it, then they are more than happy to go for a ride. They serve as anchors weighing on the tiger and making every move it makes more laborious and tiring. Its poor stamina is compromised even further. It uses its energy trying to free its limbs or shake its head and neck free, but to no avail. Then it tries to get a breather and the dogs start shaking their holds, and though its true that it won't do much damage, it hurts enough to trigger the tiger's self preservation and it exerts itself again struggling to free itself. At which point the dogs rest again while it struggles, and so the dance continues. Apparently for an hour and a half, yes that sounds like a lot to me as well, but I guess it is possible the tiger would rest while getting chewed and then explode again intermittently and the people weren't safe to take control until it was fully out of gas. Maybe it took that long before it fully stopped "reoffending" with spazz outs. Then again the time could be exaggerrated, I dunno. But generally and overall I find the story plausible. A tiger is extremely lethal and dangerous and powerful and all the rest, but if it is held and anchored by 4 big dogs on its main weapons I can see it being neutralised and unable to effectively enact its devastating attacks. Over the decades I have fought with cat fans on this, and all fans of all sorts of animals in fact, how they don't understand an animal can't just always "press the button" on its special finishing move. It has to be in he position to do it. Its like how Jean Claude Van Damme has an incredible roundhouse kick, by the logic of many animal fans he could beat anyone any time by just pressing the "spinning roundhouse kick" button and immediately kick his opponent's head off and therefore he is the best most invincible fighter. No, it doesn't work like that, he would need to set it up and work his opponent into a vulnerable position that is optimal for him to launch and land his roundhouse kick. A tiger can easily kill any dog, but not at any time from any position or despite having dogs hanging off its paws and head. I don't know what to tell you other than "I'm not surprised". The AvA community would absolutely have a stroke and turn inside out, what do you think got me on this dog path? I started passionate about wild animals, but simultaneously coming from a gripping dog culture. The repeated disrespect and underestimating of gripping dog is what drove me towards being passionate about gripping dogs. When it comes to "subjugation", which is what the story describes, they are not rivalled in the wild animal kingdom. They are elite specialist experts at subduing dangerous wild animals, that is their thing that they do, thats why they exist. So when people are like "you expect me to believe a domestic dog won't immediately die in the face of a wild animal", it is a bit like saying "you expect me to believe that measly hammer can strike a nail made of iron into solid wood? That's preposterous!!". A tiger is right on the cusp of what this "tool" can be used against (big ones, and in groups of 4) and ofcourse it is extremely hazardous. But it still shouldn't be a surprise when they successfully do what they exist to do. But yes, the AvA community would be incredulous, absolutely agree. Wild animal people, by definition, of course admire and elevate the prowess of wild beasts. That is their passion. It was mine too, but the disrespect repeatedly shown towards dog whittled away at my spirit over decades, and here I am. I don't know, maybe the number needed for a huge male leopard is the same as a tiger, the reality doesn't always follow expectations. "but a gaur is so big ... you must need.... a.. a thousand bulldogs!!!", no just one. That'll do. I don't know what the number is for a leopard, but the number for a lion was established in ancient times and that number was 4. link Here we have 4 subduing a tiger. Story checks out for me. I also want to point out we have no motivation here for exaggerration in the dogs favour. The dogs are mentioned very fleetingly and with little fanfare, they aren't the "star" of the story, the tiger is. There's no push or desire to inflate dog ability, not at all. The story is- some crazy shit happened with a tiger, it went ballistic and wreaked all sorts of havoc, but finally with great trouble and difficulty we eventually we got it under control. The dogs are merely the humble tool used, and they are given no special celebration. They aren't the point. It IMO makes no sense to read that story and suggest they are inflating or embellishing dog ability. Inflating the tiger? Maybe. Not saying they are, but they have motivation for the sensationalism of the story, so perhaps this "big" tiger was just a totally regular tiger. That's possible, they DO have reason to hype it up. They have no reason to hype up the dogs, and they don't. I'd say they did what it says they did, it doesn't conflict with my understanding of such dogs at all. Does it exceed the limits of what most AVA people think dogs can do? Yep. What part of that should surprise me? What do you think I've been saying for 20 years? What made you think it was two separate fights with the leopard? I kind of assumed it killed two in one failed subjugation attempt. Which I find plausible, on any given day that could happen, the tiger could also decimate 4 on any given day (and for the record I could even see a tiger decimating 10 on any given day). But the dogs are supposed to be able to subdue big dangerous animals and I'm therefore not surprised when they do their job and succeed. I thought the leopard killed the boarhounds in two separate fights because first of all I doubt it's a large leopard, probably average sized, and I hardly see a leopard of that size killing 1v2 two fighting boarhounds specialized in subjugating in the 100-120 lb range or possibly more. I could see a large male of 170-190 lbs or a 200-220 lb freak tom doing it but a normal sized leopard close to their size...no. |
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Post by s on Sept 2, 2023 15:40:26 GMT
Puma wins quite comfortably, Presa Canario is one of the most overrated dog breeds, there were very formidable lineages in the 19th century through crossing with English bulldogs, but by the modern day those lineages are nearly extinct, most "Presa Canarios" today are very molosser and fat dogs, that get tired very easily due to their bad stamina, like a Rottweiler but with a stronger bite, i would actually favour a working Pitbull over a Presa.
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Post by Bolushi on Sept 2, 2023 16:01:54 GMT
Puma wins quite comfortably, Presa Canario is one of the most overrated dog breeds, there were very formidable lineages in the 19th century through crossing with English bulldogs, but by the modern day those lineages are nearly extinct, most "Presa Canarios" today are very molosser and fat dogs, that get tired very easily due to their bad stamina, like a Rottweiler but with a stronger bite, i would actually favour a working Pitbull over a Presa. This is just not true. A working pitbull does likely beat a Presa (especially a gamebred one) but it'd be a war of attrition. However Presas are very tough dogs, one of the best purebred bull breeds available. I don't think you've seen them in action enough. Some images of them hog hunting was posted here - bestiary.info/presa-canario-t55.htmlPresas are seen as great hog dogs. Rottweilers are seen as low tier trash. No heart, no stamina, gets beat up a bit and then is scarred for life and bails ever since. |
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Post by s on Sept 2, 2023 19:48:01 GMT
Puma wins quite comfortably, Presa Canario is one of the most overrated dog breeds, there were very formidable lineages in the 19th century through crossing with English bulldogs, but by the modern day those lineages are nearly extinct, most "Presa Canarios" today are very molosser and fat dogs, that get tired very easily due to their bad stamina, like a Rottweiler but with a stronger bite, i would actually favour a working Pitbull over a Presa. This is just not true. A working pitbull does likely beat a Presa (especially a gamebred one) but it'd be a war of attrition. However Presas are very tough dogs, one of the best purebred bull breeds available. I don't think you've seen them in action enough. Some images of them hog hunting was posted here - bestiary.info/presa-canario-t55.htmlPresas are seen as great hog dogs. Rottweilers are seen as low tier trash. No heart, no stamina, gets beat up a bit and then is scarred for life and bails ever since. 19th Century Presas? Yeah that is true, but modern Presas are very molossous and usually fat too, and with poor stamina, very similar to a Rottweiler. Those great 19th Century Presas are nearly gone by now, this is an actual Presa, a heavy difference to the modern fat Rottweiler-esque Presas, that are currently the vast majority of the Presa Canario population  |
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Post by s on Sept 2, 2023 20:16:59 GMT
A lot of variability on the results, size and sex can contribute a lot. This can go from a solid dog victory to a mismatch in favour of the cat. I really don't seem to agree with the idea that canarios are better than dogos to be fair, from what I've seen Pet canarios get very frequently defeated by pet dogos in russian and chinese dog fights... however. A female cougar is pretty much doomed, they are gracile and the impressive female cougar is more rare than an impressive male. Meaning that you'll find way more impressive males than more impressive females and with a ridicolous frequency.
At lower weighs up to 100 lbs a male cougar is specialized in small game and lacks the superior muscularity and physical strength to overpower the dog. I'll got for the fog most of the time, with the exception that some individual male cougars can be formidable and turn the tables (we have seen some instances happening in cougar vs dogos too, the pawtrapped cougar being the best example)
Remember that cats become ridicolously more powerful as they increase in size and the perfect contrary for dogs?
At 100-115 lbs it's interesting, although that a fierce and aggressive individual male cougar I think can take this, not without fatigue and probably will win not by dominating but like that Afghan persian leopard killed a likely larger bully kutta in that epic gruesome fight. Being on it's back most of the time and raking the hell ouf of the dog which will get weakened by the severe bloodloss and get killed in the end.
It's more 50-50 at that maybe something more to the male cougar because if the dog fails to get a decisive killing position it doesn't want to go in a bite at random body parts challenge with the cougar, which can do a lot more damage with its claws.
120-130 lbs the cougar starts becoming way too powerful and at this size it will certainly be too powerful for smaller canarios, but the smaller ones will perform better than 130-145+ lb canarios for sure, which on the contrary, will be too heavy to work decently and will get pretty much slaughtered. Smaller canarios at 100-110 lbs would also get killed, but will make it way harder to the cougar for sure.
135-145+ lbs and up to 160 it's a shit show and territorial male cougars (and leopards) are already too proportionally powerful for their size and that's the moment where their extra weapons also become extremely deadly, by adding that for comparison a gripping dog has much smaller teeth that can't do barely any real bloodloss damage. Also at this size it's very important to note that despite both are the same size the cougar is already like it's much bigger, because of its explosiveness and agility that the dog will start lacking at that size. Whereas a 90-100 lb cougar will most of the time lack the physical strength of a dog of the same size and therefore will look "smaller" despite being of the same size.
150-160 lbs and over...you know.
200-230 lbs ? House cat vs apbt but reverse.
I think the weight where working dogs start deteriorating at parity is very similar to the weight in which wolves start deteriorating at parity. Dogs are Wolves that humans tamed and selectively bred over many generations for different purposes after all, what is the range Wolves start deteriorating at parity? About 110lbs if i had to guess, fits in with fighting dogs beginning to deteriorate there. |
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Post by s on Sept 2, 2023 20:31:23 GMT
This is my "Puma classification" based on weight and strenght
Type I (29-48kg): average females and sub-adults
Type II (48-67kg): Large females, average males
Type III (67-86kg): Large males
Type IV (86-105kg): Exceptional males
My position on the outcome of the right between a heavy working dog (Dogo, BK, O'Halloran, ect) and a Puma of the varying categories
Type I: I favour the Dog, though it isn't a Mismatch and the Puma can still cause substantial damage, homever the Dogs have too much of a size & weight difference, unlike the Pumas on the later categories these Pumas don't have weaponry strong enough to compensate for their relatively poor stamina (compared to the dogs) and don't have enough muscle mass to overpower the Dog most of the time either.
Type II: This is the "interesting zone", i can see both sides winning. Homever this is where Working Dogs start deteriorating and Puma now has significantly more weaponry and muscularity than Type I, giving him more options in gripping and slashing, so i give him an edge. But it's not a huge Edge and the Dog still has a substantial number of options
Type III: Not a Mismatch but at this point Puma has formidable weaponry, is extremely durable and can overpower any dog breed without much difficulty. At parity we are usually dealing with far deteriorated and overweight dogs by this point. So it's advantage of stamina is reduced quite signifcantly
Type IV: Mismatch. Any dog breed is lucky if it survives more than 30 seconds. At parity we are usually dealing with morbidly obese dogs, therefore losing even the stamina advantage. Not like it matters though, fight would be over very soon
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Post by Bolushi on Sept 2, 2023 20:49:59 GMT
This is just not true. A working pitbull does likely beat a Presa (especially a gamebred one) but it'd be a war of attrition. However Presas are very tough dogs, one of the best purebred bull breeds available. I don't think you've seen them in action enough. Some images of them hog hunting was posted here - bestiary.info/presa-canario-t55.htmlPresas are seen as great hog dogs. Rottweilers are seen as low tier trash. No heart, no stamina, gets beat up a bit and then is scarred for life and bails ever since. 19th Century Presas? Yeah that is true, but modern Presas are very molossous and usually fat too, and with poor stamina, very similar to a Rottweiler. Those great 19th Century Presas are nearly gone by now, this is an actual Presa, a heavy difference to the modern fat Rottweiler-esque Presas, that are currently the vast majority of the Presa Canario population I already know most presas and corsos and even dogos etc. etc. etc. are mostly shit fat pets. I also know when you take decent individuals of those breeds you have a very formidable animal on your hands. But they're not much like Rottweilers. Do you actually think a fight between a Rott and a Presa would be close? Worst vs worst, average vs average, best vs best, average vs best... all go horribly for the Rottweiler every time. |
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Post by Bolushi on Sept 2, 2023 20:53:44 GMT
This is my "Puma classification" based on weight and strenght Type I (29-48kg): average females and sub-adults Type II (48-67kg): Large females, average males Type III (67-86kg): Large males Type IV (86-105kg): Exceptional males My position on the outcome of the right between a heavy working dog (Dogo, BK, O'Halloran, ect) and a Puma of the varying categories Type I: I favour the Dog, though it isn't a Mismatch and the Puma can still cause substantial damage, homever the Dogs have too much of a size & weight difference, unlike the Pumas on the later categories these Pumas don't have weaponry strong enough to compensate for their relatively poor stamina (compared to the dogs) and don't have enough muscle mass to overpower the Dog either. Type II: This is the "interesting zone", i can see both sides winning. Homever this is where Working Dogs start deteriorating and Puma now has significantly more weaponry and muscularity than Type I, giving him more options in gripping and slashing, so i give him an edge. But it's not huge and the Dog still has a substantial number of options Type III: Not a Mismatch but at this point Puma has formidable weaponry, is extremely durable and can overpower any dog breed without much difficulty. At parity we are dealing with far deteriorated and overweight dogs by this point. So it's advantage of stamina is reduced quite signifcantly Type IV: Mismatch. Any dog breed is lucky if it survives more than 30 seconds. At parity we are dealing with morbidly obese dogs, therefore losing even the stamina advantage. Not like it matters though, fight would be over very soon Kinda confused, since before you said a snow leopard would beat a Presa 8/10 times when they fall into the type 1 weight class. But this is fine, our opinions are not so different on this particular topic. |
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Post by s on Sept 2, 2023 22:21:26 GMT
This is my "Puma classification" based on weight and strenght Type I (29-48kg): average females and sub-adults Type II (48-67kg): Large females, average males Type III (67-86kg): Large males Type IV (86-105kg): Exceptional males My position on the outcome of the right between a heavy working dog (Dogo, BK, O'Halloran, ect) and a Puma of the varying categories Type I: I favour the Dog, though it isn't a Mismatch and the Puma can still cause substantial damage, homever the Dogs have too much of a size & weight difference, unlike the Pumas on the later categories these Pumas don't have weaponry strong enough to compensate for their relatively poor stamina (compared to the dogs) and don't have enough muscle mass to overpower the Dog either. Type II: This is the "interesting zone", i can see both sides winning. Homever this is where Working Dogs start deteriorating and Puma now has significantly more weaponry and muscularity than Type I, giving him more options in gripping and slashing, so i give him an edge. But it's not huge and the Dog still has a substantial number of options Type III: Not a Mismatch but at this point Puma has formidable weaponry, is extremely durable and can overpower any dog breed without much difficulty. At parity we are dealing with far deteriorated and overweight dogs by this point. So it's advantage of stamina is reduced quite signifcantly Type IV: Mismatch. Any dog breed is lucky if it survives more than 30 seconds. At parity we are dealing with morbidly obese dogs, therefore losing even the stamina advantage. Not like it matters though, fight would be over very soon Kinda confused, since before you said a snow leopard would beat a Presa 8/10 times when they fall into the type 1 weight class. But this is fine, our opinions are not so different on this particular topic. I haven't rethought that yet. Maybe i tone the number down, Besides my position is that modern Presas are very similar to Rottweilers, would you favour a Snow Leopard over a Rottweiler? |
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Post by Bolushi on Sept 2, 2023 23:20:30 GMT
Kinda confused, since before you said a snow leopard would beat a Presa 8/10 times when they fall into the type 1 weight class. But this is fine, our opinions are not so different on this particular topic. I haven't rethought that yet. Maybe i tone the number down, Besides my position is that modern Presas are very similar to Rottweilers, would you favour a Snow Leopard over a Rottweiler? A really good Rottweiler -  I believe would give a snow leopard lots and lots of problems but probably lose. Not always though, like a 60/40. People often catch hogs with Presas, why don't they do it with Rottweilers much? Here's some feedback I found regarding Rott usage on hogs - That's... not Presa-like. Presas are fine crafted to get their ass whooped and keep going. Hog hunting is very relevant to the combative capacity of a dog. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 2, 2023 23:22:18 GMT
Funnily enough I agree with your puma classification and how well good working gripping dogs can do against them. I'd even understand toning "type 2" down to 60 kgs.
Why then do you say such dumb shit on carnivora, agree with all the worst takes, and undersell/undermine dogs so badly there?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2023 23:37:32 GMT
Funnily enough I agree with your puma classification and how well good working gripping dogs can do against them. I'd even understand toning "type 2" down to 60 kgs. Why then do you say such dumb shit on carnivora, agree with all the worst takes, and undersell/undermine dogs so badly there? I said good stuff about dogs on carnivora and I can't get into my account anymore. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 2, 2023 23:50:59 GMT
A dog-angle on s 's system- BulldogType I - 20 - 35 lbs. Baiting bulldogs and small bull terriers. Way too much for any cat at parity. Thrashes cat around like a rag and kills it in seconds. Type II - 35-55 lbs. Game bull terriers. Way too much for any cat at parity. Thrashes cat around and kills it in seconds - sub 2 minutes. Type III - 55-90 lbs. Farm bulldog. still too dominant for any cat at parity, but is starting to lack proportional killing ability, and cats are getting more difficult to kill. Longer tougher fights become possible, but still total dominance from the bulldog in the grapple. Slight chance of "death by raking", where a dominant winning dog gets bled out from underbelly rakes. Type IV - 90 - 120 lbs. Functional "Bullmastiff"/Bandogge, best suited for man-work. Interesting zone. Dog is still probably too strong in the grapple, but not assured. Death by raking is becoming increasingly likely, death by subjugation and kill bite becomes possible. Type V - 120-200 + lbs. Bloated Ornamental pet mastiff - Death by dominant subjugation and kill bite becomes very likely as cats becomes proportionately very powerful in this zone. Dog is too fat and slow, has no stamina and no finishing ability. Is still strong and cat might fail, but cat will just easily flee if it does. BoarhoundType I - 60-90 lbs. Low percentage bull lurcher/staghound. Basically a sighthound, can kill cats at equal size but not assured and indeed cat should probably be favourite. Is vulnerable through somewhat low durability and moderate strength which both have been sacrificed for exceptional speed. Type II - 80 - 105 lbs. Classic Boarhound/Bull lurcher. Big increase in ability over type I even at equal size (in fact historically noted that 1 type II could beat 3 of type I in fight). Death by rake possible but should be firmly favourited over cat at parity (real working dogo resides here) Type III - 105 lbs - 125 lbs. Large boarhound/wolfhound. Possibly still just as formidable as classic boarhound, slight drop on average. Increase in proportional cat ability makes fight closer and more uncertain. Best fight. Type IV - 125 - 165 lbs. Working Warhound/colonial bloodhound. Still quite capable but cats are starting to get slight upper hand due to leaps and bounds in proportional power. Subjugation struggle is possibly 50/50, but cats get edge with additional death by raking ace up the sleeve. Type V - 150-200+ lbs Over-inflated retired warhound/boarhound. Usually a pet mastiff, sometimes a fighting dog. Either way cats are too powerful at this size to not be favoured. Death by subjugation and kill bite most likely outcome. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Sept 2, 2023 23:54:57 GMT
Funnily enough I agree with your puma classification and how well good working gripping dogs can do against them. I'd even understand toning "type 2" down to 60 kgs. Why then do you say such dumb shit on carnivora, agree with all the worst takes, and undersell/undermine dogs so badly there? I said good stuff about dogs on carnivora and I can't get into my account anymore. That's how it goes. What were you thinking? |
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