Presa Canario vs Mountain Lion

[Deleted]

Okay so dogs have an advantage up until a certain point, and at that point the tables are flipped and cats have the advantage from there on out?

[Hardcastle]

Sept 2, 2023 23:55:21 GMT @ling said:

Okay so dogs have an advantage up until a certain point, and at that point the tables are flipped and cats have the advantage from there on out?

Cats gain the advantage as soon as they have the power in their forelimbs to grapple with the struggling dog, pin it down and hold it still, then they can quite easily kill it cleanly, quickly and efficiently with their exceptional lethal bite (whether to the throat, neck vertebrae, base of the skull, through the cranium, or whatever the case may be).
The lethality in that bite has never been in question from my side, the only question is their ability to overpower and beat the dog in the struggle for subjugation. With bulldogs, and boarhounds thanks to their bull-percentage, this is not something they can do until the dogs get too big for their own good.
The exception being that low bull-percentage type of sighthound, which includes the english greyhound as one example (not often talked about that it is is technically a low-percentage bull lurcher- ditto for the whippet). When the bull percentage dips too low, the subjugation resistance drops and cats can start winning again. Can. Some low bull percentage sighthounds can also win, they have good killing ability but lowered durability and subjugation.

[s]

Sept 2, 2023 20:49:59 GMT Bolushi said:

Sept 2, 2023 19:48:01 GMT s said:

19th Century Presas? Yeah that is true, but modern Presas are very molossous and usually fat too, and with poor stamina, very similar to a Rottweiler. Those great 19th Century Presas are nearly gone by now, this is an actual Presa, a heavy difference to the modern fat Rottweiler-esque Presas, that are currently the vast majority of the Presa Canario population

  

I already know most presas and corsos and even dogos etc. etc. etc. are mostly shit fat pets. I also know when you take decent individuals of those breeds you have a very formidable animal on your hands.
But they're not much like Rottweilers. Do you actually think a fight between a Rott and a Presa would be close? Worst vs worst, average vs average, best vs best, average vs best... all go horribly for the Rottweiler every time.

Against the 19th Century-type Presa i sent you? Yeah i agree, but compared to the modern, fat Presas like this one they are very similar, both having very high body fat %, bad stamina and lack of muscle, the modern Presa still has a stronger bite force than the Rottweiler but that's pretty much the only major difference between a modern Presa and a Rottweiler

[s]

Compare the 2 pictures between old-type Presa and new-type Presa, really illustrates the decay of the breed.

[s]

Sept 2, 2023 23:22:18 GMT Hardcastle said:

Funnily enough I agree with your puma classification and how well good working gripping dogs can do against them. I'd even understand toning "type 2" down to 60 kgs.

Why then do you say such dumb shit on carnivora, agree with all the worst takes, and undersell/undermine dogs so badly there?

I am actually one of the most "moderate" persons in Carnivora when it comes to debates about the power of felines. I dislike the generalyzing, somewhat arrogant and oversimplified "Cat is better because it's a Cat" line that some people like FelinePower like to say

[Hardcastle]

Sept 3, 2023 21:48:45 GMT s said:

Sept 2, 2023 20:49:59 GMT Bolushi said:

I already know most presas and corsos and even dogos etc. etc. etc. are mostly shit fat pets. I also know when you take decent individuals of those breeds you have a very formidable animal on your hands.
But they're not much like Rottweilers. Do you actually think a fight between a Rott and a Presa would be close? Worst vs worst, average vs average, best vs best, average vs best... all go horribly for the Rottweiler every time.

Against the 19th Century-type Presa i sent you? Yeah i agree, but compared to the modern, fat Presas like this one they are very similar, both having very high body fat %, bad stamina and lack of muscle, the modern Presa still has a stronger bite force than the Rottweiler but that's pretty much the only major difference between a modern Presa and a Rottweiler

Even a ruined presa or neo mastiff or whatever just has a different warrior's mentality compared to a rottweiler.

The rottweiler is basically a borderline pariah/ proto-bulldog/herder with normal self-preservation instincts and normal (low) pain tolerance levels. It's kind of halfway between a pariah dog and a bulldog. Usually, with exceptions, but usually something from the actual "alaunt" lineage of bulldogs/boarhounds, which includes- presas, alanos, filas, american bulldogs, tosas, dogue de bordeauxs, boerboels, pitbulls, sbts, ebt, boxer, great dane, bullmastiff, english mastiff, cane corso, neo mastiff, dogo argentino, bandog, bull arab, etc etc, normally they will have a competitive combat edge over a rottweiler. There are other factors that can change this, the rottweiler might be a really fit lean hardened working dog and the proper alaunt-derived dog might be a pampered fat wuss, just on an individual level the rottweiler might have every advantage, but fundamentally at their cores, built into their anatomy and DNA, the rott is an inferior combatant.

[s]

Sept 3, 2023 21:57:50 GMT Hardcastle said:

Sept 3, 2023 21:48:45 GMT s said:

Against the 19th Century-type Presa i sent you? Yeah i agree, but compared to the modern, fat Presas like this one they are very similar, both having very high body fat %, bad stamina and lack of muscle, the modern Presa still has a stronger bite force than the Rottweiler but that's pretty much the only major difference between a modern Presa and a Rottweiler

Even a ruined presa or neo mastiff or whatever just has a different warrior's mentality compared to a rottweiler.

The rottweiler is basically a borderline pariah/ proto-bulldog/herder with normal self-preservation instincts and normal (low) pain tolerance levels. It's kind of halfway between a pariah dog and a bulldog. Usually, with exceptions, but usually something from the actual "alaunt" lineage of bulldogs/boarhounds, which includes- presas, alanos, filas, american bulldogs, tosas, dogue de bordeauxs, boerboels, pitbulls, sbts, ebt, boxer, great dane, bullmastiff, english mastiff, cane corso, neo mastiff, dogo argentino, bandog, bull arab, etc etc, normally they will have a competitive combat edge over a rottweiler. There are other factors that can change this, the rottweiler might be a really fit lean hardened working dog and the proper alaunt-derived dog might be a pampered fat wuss, just on an individual level the rottweiler might have every advantage, but fundamentally at their cores, built into their anatomy and DNA, the rott is an inferior combatant.

Homever the power gap between the old-type Presa from the 1st picture and the neo-Presa from the 2rd picture is objectively greater than the power gap between the neo-Presa of the 2rd picture and a Rottweiler. This is pretty agreeable.

[Hardcastle]

Performance gap, yes. Power gap... I dunno. The ruined presa there would still be insanely strong. But in stamina, agility, urgency, etc etc, it may even be much worse than some rottweilers, a working rott would probably be better for most jobs, but in a basic fight between them my hunch is the ruined presa would still win a lot of the time, depending on if it was a pampered wuss or not.

[s]

Sept 2, 2023 23:55:21 GMT @ling said:

Okay so dogs have an advantage up until a certain point, and at that point the tables are flipped and cats have the advantage from there on out?

Aside from some small-sized gems like Spotted Leopard and Snow Leopard Felines don't start getting that impressive at parity until around 45kg. Lynx genus is too gracile and lacks killing instinct IMO. Which is why i favour most Bulldogs at parity over them.

[grippingwhiteness]

Best vs best, indicating the presence of the most powerful and aggressive specimen for both sides, I think that dog chances stop definitely around 120-130 lbs against a leopard or a cougar. At these sizes I think the cats, if portrayed by the most aggressive and "macho" males, are just too good and formidable in explosiveness and defense for any dog their size, larger or smaller.

While I'm impressed by that account of a leopard falling in that size range enduring a terrible and epic fight and killing a very likely larger Bully kutta (they are generally 130-165 lbs, leopards close to that region averaged 115 lbs on scientific protocols) I'm more impressed by that leopard used in fighting arenas that killed two fighting boarhounds.

Now Dale specified on July he believes the leopard might have killed both the dogs in a single fight, I have to disagree. Though that also depends on a few things. It's complicated.

I could see a powerful monster leopard in the 200-220 lbs range winning against gripping dogs half its size of 90-110 lbs, at such size advantage could perfectly be able to frightfully tear them open with its huge and muscular limbs and ravage their skulls/necks with its 270-280+ mm long skull with very long canines designed to tear apart arteries or puncturing skulls .

At lower sizes? No. While I'm sure that a 110-130 lb aggressive and badass male will fight to the end and certainly badly or even critically injure two 90-100 lb fighting boarhounds, I see the chances of it actually winning and surviving extremely low. Maybe one of the dogs could also die later from its terrible injuries, but the leopard winning in a 1v2 scenario no 1v1 no problem, they have done it. Not with numerical disadvantage.

So I'm inclined to believe the leopard killed each fighting boarhound in two different fights. And I reject the other option.

[Bolushi]

Sept 4, 2023 15:23:47 GMT grippingwhiteness said:

Best vs best, indicating the presence of the most powerful and aggressive specimen for both sides, I think that dog chances stop definitely around 120-130 lbs against a leopard or a cougar. At these sizes I think the cats, if portrayed by the most aggressive and "macho" males, are just too good and formidable in explosiveness and defense for any dog their size, larger or smaller.

While I'm impressed by that account of a leopard falling in that size range enduring a terrible and epic fight and killing a very likely larger Bully kutta (they are generally 130-165 lbs, leopards close to that region averaged 115 lbs on scientific protocols) I'm more impressed by that leopard used in fighting arenas that killed two fighting boarhounds.

Now Dale specified on July he believes the leopard might have killed both the dogs in a single fight, I have to disagree. Though that also depends on a few things. It's complicated.

I could see a powerful monster leopard in the 200-220 lbs range winning against gripping dogs half its size of 90-110 lbs, at such size advantage could perfectly be able to frightfully tear them open with its huge and muscular limbs and ravage their skulls/necks with its 270-280+ mm long skull with very long canines designed to tear apart arteries or puncturing skulls .

At lower sizes? No. While I'm sure that a 110-130 lb aggressive and badass male will fight to the end and certainly badly or even critically injure two 90-100 lb fighting boarhounds, I see the chances of it actually winning and surviving extremely low. Maybe one of the dogs could also die later from its terrible injuries, but the leopard winning in a 1v2 scenario no 1v1 no problem, they have done it. Not with numerical disadvantage.

So I'm inclined to believe the leopard killed each fighting boarhound in two different fights. And I reject the other option.

Don't forget about the 2 Boerboel x APBT brothers (110lbs each) that killed a 120lb male leopard cornered in a goat shed. Evidently needed a fair bit of vet attention but were mostly OK. So 2 boarhounds which were likely around 80-120lbs losing to a 110-130lb leopard is pretty much a borderline impossibility IMO.

[s]

Sept 4, 2023 15:23:47 GMT grippingwhiteness said:

Best vs best, indicating the presence of the most powerful and aggressive specimen for both sides, I think that dog chances stop definitely around 120-130 lbs against a leopard or a cougar. At these sizes I think the cats, if portrayed by the most aggressive and "macho" males, are just too good and formidable in explosiveness and defense for any dog their size, larger or smaller.

While I'm impressed by that account of a leopard falling in that size range enduring a terrible and epic fight and killing a very likely larger Bully kutta (they are generally 130-165 lbs, leopards close to that region averaged 115 lbs on scientific protocols) I'm more impressed by that leopard used in fighting arenas that killed two fighting boarhounds.

Now Dale specified on July he believes the leopard might have killed both the dogs in a single fight, I have to disagree. Though that also depends on a few things. It's complicated.

I could see a powerful monster leopard in the 200-220 lbs range winning against gripping dogs half its size of 90-110 lbs, at such size advantage could perfectly be able to frightfully tear them open with its huge and muscular limbs and ravage their skulls/necks with its 270-280+ mm long skull with very long canines designed to tear apart arteries or puncturing skulls .

At lower sizes? No. While I'm sure that a 110-130 lb aggressive and badass male will fight to the end and certainly badly or even critically injure two 90-100 lb fighting boarhounds, I see the chances of it actually winning and surviving extremely low. Maybe one of the dogs could also die later from its terrible injuries, but the leopard winning in a 1v2 scenario no 1v1 no problem, they have done it. Not with numerical disadvantage.

So I'm inclined to believe the leopard killed each fighting boarhound in two different fights. And I reject the other option.

An in-between possibility is that the Leopard killed both during the same fight. But that by the time the other Boarhound arrived the 1st Boarhound was already dead or seriously injured. Therefore Leopard could focus on him.

[s]

Alright i made a Leopard scale, just like the Puma scale there are 4 tiers based on weight and each tier has the same range (18kg), that way all tiers are fundamental and none are filler or merely transitional. Im using African Leopards

Type I (24-42kg): Average females and Sub-adults
Type II (42-60kg): Average males and large females
Type III (60-78kg): Large males
Type IV (78-96kg): Exceptional males

[s]

Type I: Poor Leopard... I think it would put up a good fight but would ultimately lose to a single ~50kg Boarhound we are talking about. Only type we are 99.99% sure that wasn't the Leopard involved

Type II: The Leopard that killed the 2 Boarhounds was likely here. A Leopard of this size would probably be overwhelmed if the 2 ~Boarhounds attacked at once, it would probably go down fighting and slashing and inflicting heavy damage to the Dogs before ultimately dying. So the most likely event chain is that it killed them in separate fights or that it killed them in the same fight. But that by the fight the 2rd Boarhound arrived the 1st one was already dead or seriously injured, therefore the Leopard could focus on the 2rd one and kill it. Either way quite impressive

Type III: Somewhat likely but less than II, but still probable. I believe it would pretty easily kill a single Boarhound, against 2 at once i don't know... I think it would pull it off but with severe injuries but im not so sure

Type IV: I believe it would confidently dispatch both Boarhounds at once, homever the Boarhounds would probably put up a good fight. But at this point the Überleopard is probably able to tear their insides and guts open with a single claw swipe or something. This is the 2rd less likely

[grippingwhiteness]

Sept 4, 2023 17:49:47 GMT s said:

Alright i made a Leopard scale, just like the Puma scale there are 4 tiers based on weight and each tier has the same range (18kg), that way all tiers are fundamental and none are filler or merely transitional. Im using African Leopards

Type I (24-42kg): Average females and Sub-adults
Type II (42-60kg): Average males and large females
Type III (60-78kg): Large males
Type IV (78-96kg): Exceptional males

There's a few corrections to be done.

Largest male leopard reliably reported was Alborz, 98 kg with a wirst cut off and pretty much in an unhealthy state of not eating for two weeks (even started eating its own limbs due to the stress of being in quarantine) . Despite this he was still enormous and weighed 98 kg (besting the 96 kg weight of the Namibian male) but if healthy and well fed in nature he surely was a 100+ kg outlier, as the vet Imam Memarian and Kamiz Baradarani told me, you should put therefore 100 kg as maximum barrier.

I also disagree on "60-78 kg" being "large males", north iranian leopards average at 72.8 kg (I finally collected all weights from North Iran with the help of a persian veterinary) and you can see they reach costantly weights of 70-80 kg. They are very large beasts

~98 kg for one critically injured male named Alborz~ Alborz, Imam Memariam 2014,

~90 kg for an adult male from Central Asia, Harrington 1977,

~88 kg for an adult deceased male from Northern Iran, 

~86 kg for an adult male from Golestan NP,

~80 kg (bottomed and broke the scale) for an adult male weighef by Dr Farhadina, Tandoureh NP 

~80 kg for an adult male weighef by D. Laylin, engaged in a program for trapping leopards in Iran and transferring them from one region to another.

~79 kg for and adult male weighed by Imam Memariam 

~75 kg for an adult male from Tandoureh NP, by Mohammad Farhadina.

~75 kg for an adult male in Tandoureh NP, Future4Leopards December 6, 2016.

~74 kg for an adult male in critical condition from a village named Varian in the Alborz mountains.

~72,5 for an adult male radio-collared in Ashkur-Rudsar-Gilan Province,

~70 kg for an adult male from northern Iran, collared and released on Tuesday 16 May 2017. 

~66 kg for an adult male from Chapar-Ghoymeh;

~ 65.8 kg for 22 Males

~64 kg for a young male from Golestan NP

~57 kg for an old male named Borzoo in Tandoureh. In early night of 5 February 2015.

~52 kg for an adult male named Kaveh in NP, NE Iran. MyJourneyWithPersianLeopards

~47.5 kg for an adult male, it was significantly dehydrated and had elevated capillary perfusion, was cachectic, with pale mucus membranes, third-eyelid protrusion, and bilaterally enlarged submandibular lymph nodes.

Average : ~72.8 kg for 20 males originating from Northern Iran, note it could even raise if I excluded the 47.5 kg male but I included it despite being in a very bad state, which is the same for Alborz the largest male around 100 kg (98 kg) in bad state, which certainly weighed more and slightly above 100 kg when healthy.

Note this other table that included males from central and southern iran (small ones, they average around 50 kg in those areas) but still had 3 males in the 90-95 kg range.



You also have Okonjima male leopards from Namibia, they average at 68 kgs according to this old table.


New weighs have been gathered so I sampled them all, the average didn't change :

84 kg "N/A" 

82 kg "Mawenzi"

79 kg "N/A" 

76.8 kg "Neo"

76 kg "Madiba"

76 kg "N/A" 

73 kg "Sefu" 

69 kg "Kobo" 

67 kg "N/A" 

65 kg "Nkozi" 

65 kg "Bwana" 

76.8 kg "Neo"

64 kg "Jagu"

64 kg "Mafana"

59 kg "N/A"

58.5 kg Nuka

55 kg "Paka"

47.8 kg "Kit"

Average = 68.3 kg for 18 males .

Another African population that produces very impressive and large males is Kwazulu natal in south africa, where males averaged 68 kg including young adults and 72.25 kg for prime males.



This is my modified version of your table:

Type I (29-48kg): average females and sub-adults

Type II (48-72kg): Large females, average males

Type III (72-86kg): Large males

Type IV (86-100kg): Exceptional males