kevin
Ruminant
Posts: 152
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Post by kevin on Jul 28, 2023 14:58:16 GMT
The thing with spanish fighting bulls is that they're more combative than gaurs and that tigers cannot ambush them as they're in an open arena. Since Bison are generally bigger and more combative than cape buffaloes, I don't see why they should be less difficult to hunt than cape buffaloes. As for these ratios you mention, well perhaps a 60 kg puma would be able to hunt a 300 kg bison. It may have some chance but a Bison of such weight would be a yearling with barely any fighting skill. Yes, Spanish fighting bulls are more combative than gaurs. But, I'd wager that even if a tiger ambushed a Spanish fighting bull, the bull would still win easily. There was a now deleted answer on Quora of Spanish fighting bulls beating lions and tigers simultaneously. Like, a lion and tiger or maybe even 2 tigers would be released at once, and then the bull would proceed to massacre all of them. Even though it's still not an OFFICIAL ambush scenario, I think the time when one cat would have kept the bull occupied would have served as an "ambush scenario" in a sense for the other cat, because that's exactly what an ambush scenario is: catching the target when it's not looking, it doesn't matter whether it's just eating grass or whether it's occupied by one of your teammates. I think the fact that Spanish fighting bulls have defeated multiple big cats simultaneously is sufficient proof that even with the aid of a surprise attack, no one cat would stand a chance. I don't really want to talk about the combativeness of bison and buffaloes. I think what I'll say is this: cape buffaloes are used to fighting off big cats which as we all know are better big game hunters than ursines/wild canines. Bison haven't really got the hang of fighting something that is better adapted to kill than any other carnivore in North America. I could imagine that an emergence of the cougar as the top carnivore and their inevitable pursuit of bison could in a sense leave the cattle "lost of words", "dumbfounded", as if they were to be like "where did such a guy so good at hunting come from? We've not faced anything like this for thousands of years!" I'm glad that you too can see some sense in these ratios. Yes, a 60 kg cougar would do very well against a 300 kg cougar. It just means, a 100 kg cougar would also do very well against a 500 kg bison which we both know is an adult. Similarly, a 90 kg cougar would do very well at 450 kg of bison mass, which is a reasonable size for an adult bison. I don't pay much attention to accounts. Not to mention that they could pit a captive lion or tiger which wouldn't have any hunting experience in the wild. Bison technically should have some experience with cougars as they would attempt to snatch calves from time to time imo. And no, a 60 kg cougar Being able to hunt a 300 kg bison doesn't necessarily mean that a 100 kg could hunt a 500 kg bison because like I said, a 300 kg bison would be a yearling that hardly would think of fighting back whereas a 500 kg bison is basically an adult that developed a fighting skill and probably has some fighting experience and a certain level of aggression. A 300 kg isometrically scaled bison bull would a far more dangerous foe than a 300 kg yearling Bison. |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jul 28, 2023 15:05:40 GMT
Yes, Spanish fighting bulls are more combative than gaurs. But, I'd wager that even if a tiger ambushed a Spanish fighting bull, the bull would still win easily. There was a now deleted answer on Quora of Spanish fighting bulls beating lions and tigers simultaneously. Like, a lion and tiger or maybe even 2 tigers would be released at once, and then the bull would proceed to massacre all of them. Even though it's still not an OFFICIAL ambush scenario, I think the time when one cat would have kept the bull occupied would have served as an "ambush scenario" in a sense for the other cat, because that's exactly what an ambush scenario is: catching the target when it's not looking, it doesn't matter whether it's just eating grass or whether it's occupied by one of your teammates. I think the fact that Spanish fighting bulls have defeated multiple big cats simultaneously is sufficient proof that even with the aid of a surprise attack, no one cat would stand a chance. I don't really want to talk about the combativeness of bison and buffaloes. I think what I'll say is this: cape buffaloes are used to fighting off big cats which as we all know are better big game hunters than ursines/wild canines. Bison haven't really got the hang of fighting something that is better adapted to kill than any other carnivore in North America. I could imagine that an emergence of the cougar as the top carnivore and their inevitable pursuit of bison could in a sense leave the cattle "lost of words", "dumbfounded", as if they were to be like "where did such a guy so good at hunting come from? We've not faced anything like this for thousands of years!" I'm glad that you too can see some sense in these ratios. Yes, a 60 kg cougar would do very well against a 300 kg cougar. It just means, a 100 kg cougar would also do very well against a 500 kg bison which we both know is an adult. Similarly, a 90 kg cougar would do very well at 450 kg of bison mass, which is a reasonable size for an adult bison. I don't pay much attention to accounts. Not to mention that they could pit a captive lion or tiger which wouldn't have any hunting experience in the wild. Bison technically should have some experience with cougars as they would attempt to snatch calves from time to time imo. And no, a 60 kg cougar Being able to hunt a 300 kg bison doesn't necessarily mean that a 100 kg could hunt a 500 kg bison because like I said, a 300 kg bison would be a yearling that hardly would think of fighting back whereas a 500 kg bison is basically an adult that developed a fighting skill and probably has some fighting experience and a certain level of aggression. A 300 kg isometrically scaled bison bull would a far more dangerous foe than a 300 kg yearling Bison. But you're forgetting something. A 100 kg cougar would be much stronger than a 60 kg cougar. If some people on this forum are to be believed, it would also be proportionately stronger. A 100 kg cougar would also be more belligerent, combative, and egoistic than a 60 kg cougar would. We shouldn't just pay attention to the difference between the bison of different weights and ignore the difference between the cougars of different weights. So, yeah. 100 kg mountain lion has a VERY GOOD shot against a 500 kg bison. |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jul 28, 2023 15:07:47 GMT
And kevin , CoolJohnson has a scientific paper that cougars don’t prey on bison calves. They can share it. So, in the end, bison don't have any concrete experience with something as lethal as a cougar. |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jul 28, 2023 15:12:33 GMT
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kevin
Ruminant
Posts: 152
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Post by kevin on Jul 28, 2023 15:19:58 GMT
I don't pay much attention to accounts. Not to mention that they could pit a captive lion or tiger which wouldn't have any hunting experience in the wild. Bison technically should have some experience with cougars as they would attempt to snatch calves from time to time imo. And no, a 60 kg cougar Being able to hunt a 300 kg bison doesn't necessarily mean that a 100 kg could hunt a 500 kg bison because like I said, a 300 kg bison would be a yearling that hardly would think of fighting back whereas a 500 kg bison is basically an adult that developed a fighting skill and probably has some fighting experience and a certain level of aggression. A 300 kg isometrically scaled bison bull would a far more dangerous foe than a 300 kg yearling Bison. But you're forgetting something. A 100 kg cougar would be much stronger than a 60 kg cougar. If some people on this forum are to be believed, it would also be proportionately stronger. A 100 kg cougar would also be more belligerent, combative, and egoistic than a 60 kg cougar would. We shouldn't just pay attention to the difference between the bison of different weights and ignore the difference between the cougars of different weights. So, yeah. 100 kg mountain lion has a VERY GOOD shot against a 500 kg bison. Yes a 100 kg cougar would be stronger. But that's literally it. A 60 kg cougar reached adulthood, has enough experience hunting and fighting. a 100 kg cougar would be just an unusually large puma with a similar amount of experience. In bison's case, it's different as I already explained. |
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kevin
Ruminant
Posts: 152
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Post by kevin on Jul 28, 2023 15:20:15 GMT
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jul 28, 2023 15:25:28 GMT
But you're forgetting something. A 100 kg cougar would be much stronger than a 60 kg cougar. If some people on this forum are to be believed, it would also be proportionately stronger. A 100 kg cougar would also be more belligerent, combative, and egoistic than a 60 kg cougar would. We shouldn't just pay attention to the difference between the bison of different weights and ignore the difference between the cougars of different weights. So, yeah. 100 kg mountain lion has a VERY GOOD shot against a 500 kg bison. Yes a 100 kg cougar would be stronger. But that's literally it. A 60 kg cougar reached adulthood, has enough experience hunting and fighting. a 100 kg cougar would be just an unusually large puma with a similar amount of experience. In bison's case, it's different as I already explained. Uhhhhm, a 24 kg cougar could also be an adult for all you care. So, the "a 60 kilogram cougar is still an adult" doesn't really sound correct. |
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kevin
Ruminant
Posts: 152
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Post by kevin on Jul 28, 2023 15:36:17 GMT
Yes a 100 kg cougar would be stronger. But that's literally it. A 60 kg cougar reached adulthood, has enough experience hunting and fighting. a 100 kg cougar would be just an unusually large puma with a similar amount of experience. In bison's case, it's different as I already explained. Uhhhhm, a 24 kg cougar could also be an adult for all you care. So, the "a 60 kilogram cougar is still an adult" doesn't really sound correct. A 24 kg cougar isn't an adult lol. |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jul 28, 2023 15:40:11 GMT
Uhhhhm, a 24 kg cougar could also be an adult for all you care. So, the "a 60 kilogram cougar is still an adult" doesn't really sound correct. A 24 kg cougar isn't an adult lol. Oh yes, it can be. Just like the smallest jaguaresses can be 36 kg. On the Venezuelan Llanos, full-grown female cougars can weigh 24 kg. |
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kevin
Ruminant
Posts: 152
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Post by kevin on Jul 28, 2023 15:43:11 GMT
A 24 kg cougar isn't an adult lol. Oh yes, it can be. Just like the smallest jaguaresses can be 36 kg. On the Venezuelan Llanos, full-grown female cougars can weigh 24 kg. What about the males though ? They should be like around 40 kg or something, right ? |
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kevin
Ruminant
Posts: 152
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Post by kevin on Jul 28, 2023 15:43:46 GMT
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jul 28, 2023 15:50:04 GMT
Oh yes, it can be. Just like the smallest jaguaresses can be 36 kg. On the Venezuelan Llanos, full-grown female cougars can weigh 24 kg. What about the males though ? They should be like around 40 kg or something, right ? This is a screenshot from the study:  As you can see, female cougars labelled as a, f (where "a" is "adult" and "f" is "female") could very well be 24 kg. In fact the largest female was 28 kg. The males on the other hand are more like 50 kg. Taken From: Coexistence of jaguar ( Panthera onca ) and puma ( Puma concolor ) in a mosaic landscape in the Venezuelan llanos: www.academia.edu/6484512/Coexistence_of_jaguar_Panthera_onca_and_puma_Puma_concolor_in_a_mosaic_landscape_in_the_Venezuelan_llanos |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jul 28, 2023 15:51:23 GMT
Then something must be wrong. I'll see if there's anything I can do. |
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kevin
Ruminant
Posts: 152
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Post by kevin on Jul 28, 2023 15:53:23 GMT
Yeah, basically an adult male puma is 50 kg so a 24 kg cougar would be most likely a subadult male....or an adult female like you said. my point concerning 60 kg cougars being adult was applicable to the males. |
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kevin
Ruminant
Posts: 152
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Post by kevin on Jul 28, 2023 15:53:34 GMT
Then something must be wrong. I'll see if there's anything I can do. Ok |
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