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Post by Hardcastle on Jul 5, 2023 3:34:41 GMT
 A bison is pretty much a fighting bull on steroids. I'd argue they just have totally different styles, and despite the name "fighting bull", the fighting bull is poorly equipped to .. fight bulls. More so than even many other domestic cattle. Let alone bison. It is just very good at attacking and killing humans AND incidentally other predators as a byproduct of that. I believe it is actually the most hazardous bovine for my beloved dogs and would be a nightmare for wild predators like wolves, leopards, pumas and jaguars to even think about. Still very very hazardous for lions and tigers, but attainable, not SOO much of a problem for very large brown bears because they actually aren't that big. Still dangerous. But no, absolutely no chance against a bison, and probably no chance against a cape buffalo or water buffalo, wouldn't pose much threat to a gaur either. The bison is a rammer. Reinforced and buttressed in the front end for high impact collisions. In that respect it is almost more like a musk ox or bighorn sheep, than it is like it's fellow bovines. This I think gives it a huge bovine vs bovine advantage over every other bovine, with the only contender for me being those domestic fighting buffalos that are actually bred to fight each other in Asia. As I said on WAW, THAT is the match up. The fighting bull is not bred to fight bulls, and is not really in the race. It is designed to kill smaller fleshy predators. But in that department I consider it superior to the bison. And I also consider the cape buffalo superior to the bison. I'm actually not sure who is more the "king" in that category out of Cape Buffalo and Iberian Bull, but I think those are the top 2. A similar category, though different, is difficulty for a predator to kill. Their sort of overall power and durability. I think the bison jumps back up near the top and the gaur also comes into play. The Cape buffalo and Asiatic buffalo are all also fairly well above the iberian bull. Some other cattle breeds actually enter the fray in that category, the larger more powerful and durable ones. |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jul 5, 2023 8:04:18 GMT
Hardcastle, from what I saw in a now deleted Quora answer, there has never been a recorded case of a tiger or lion beating a Spanish bull in the bullring. So, I'm not really sure about "...but attainable..." when you're talking about those 2 big cats. Plus, what exactly do you mean by "very large brown bears"? Like, could you give a weight range?
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Post by Hardcastle on Jul 5, 2023 8:24:57 GMT
PumAcinonyx SuperCat I don't even know about bears, I'm actually just tipping my hat to the historical "accounts" of brown bears killing spanish bulls in arranged fights, even though I find them dubious and a little contrary to things I have seen (particularly the biggest coastal browns in alaska frequently failing attempts to kill normal cattle). BUT I'm not prepared to "take on" that argument right now, and maybe when trapped in an enclosed pen with no escape we get to see a different side of bears. Lions and tigers should be able to prey on spanish bulls, with an ambush and good technique they can kill cape buffalo and gaur and asiatic buffalo and etc which I deem more difficult to kill than a spanish bull, even though I believe the spanish bull has better offense for killing predators. I think a good lion or tiger could still definitely kill one with the right strategy and skillset. Actually much better than a brown bear, but the brown bear is less vulnerable to counter-attack. Especially, like I said, when it is large. Like 750-1000+ lbsers. I see the bears failing predation attempts more often (even nearly every time, on a prime bull), BUT in a pen with no escape those bears I think would do better than most other carnivores.
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Jul 5, 2023 9:16:49 GMT
A bison is pretty much a fighting bull on steroids. I'd argue they just have totally different styles, and despite the name "fighting bull", the fighting bull is poorly equipped to .. fight bulls. More so than even many other domestic cattle. Let alone bison. It is just very good at attacking and killing humans AND incidentally other predators as a byproduct of that. I believe it is actually the most hazardous bovine for my beloved dogs and would be a nightmare for wild predators like wolves, leopards, pumas and jaguars to even think about. Still very very hazardous for lions and tigers, but attainable, not SOO much of a problem for very large brown bears because they actually aren't that big. Still dangerous. But no, absolutely no chance against a bison, and probably no chance against a cape buffalo or water buffalo, wouldn't pose much threat to a gaur either. The bison is a rammer. Reinforced and buttressed in the front end for high impact collisions. In that respect it is almost more like a musk ox or bighorn sheep, than it is like it's fellow bovines. This I think gives it a huge bovine vs bovine advantage over every other bovine, with the only contender for me being those domestic fighting buffalos that are actually bred to fight each other in Asia. As I said on WAW, THAT is the match up. The fighting bull is not bred to fight bulls, and is not really in the race. It is designed to kill smaller fleshy predators. But in that department I consider it superior to the bison. And I also consider the cape buffalo superior to the bison. I'm actually not sure who is more the "king" in that category out of Cape Buffalo and Iberian Bull, but I think those are the top 2. A similar category, though different, is difficulty for a predator to kill. Their sort of overall power and durability. I think the bison jumps back up near the top and the gaur also comes into play. The Cape buffalo and Asiatic buffalo are all also fairly well above the iberian bull. Some other cattle breeds actually enter the fray in that category, the larger more powerful and durable ones. I'm gonna have to look more into fighting buffaloes. And I do agree with most things you've said. |
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Jul 5, 2023 9:21:13 GMT
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Post by Hardcastle on Jul 5, 2023 10:27:29 GMT
That's messed up, really. There should be a huge effort to reintroduce bison across much of America.
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Jul 19, 2023 19:17:25 GMT
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Jul 26, 2023 12:48:44 GMT
Largest American bovid vs largest American cervid, wood bison vs Alaskan moose :  The fact that the Wood Bison is much shorter and much heavier at the same time does suggest that it has a way more Powerfully built body than the Moose. Credit to Undertaker45 Aka Elvis Presley for the side by side comparison. |
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Post by oldgreengrolar on Jul 27, 2023 9:37:07 GMT
Black Dog, the largest wild American Bison ever recorded with a weight of almost 1300 kg :  OOnly an exceptionally large male brown and polar bear can kill Black Dog. |
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Jul 28, 2023 12:23:46 GMT
Black Dog, the largest wild American Bison ever recorded with a weight of almost 1300 kg : OOnly an exceptionally large male brown and polar bear can kill Black Dog. Exceptional Polar Bears can be successful walrus bull hunters so yes it would be possible for them to hunt Bison down if they can manage to avoid getting rammed. |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jul 28, 2023 13:08:43 GMT
Another VERY IMPORTANT fact about...  ...American bison ( Bison bison)... ...is that they are SUBJECT to predation by the...  cougar ( Puma concolor). " SUBJECT TO PREDATION on the other extremity are the moose and BISON":  Taken From: The puma : legendary lion of the Americas: archive.org/details/pumalegendarylio0000tins" Its bite is so strong that a cougar can INSTANTLY kill prey as large as a 600-pound (272 kg) moose or BISON" ( The word "cougar" as used here could very well be referring to a 45 kg cougar, as cougars of that size can take down bull elk even bigger than the weight of the moose mentioned here. The word "moose" also seems to be used "interchangeably" with "bison", as if to say a cougar that can kill a moose of that size can also kill a bison of that size. Honestly, that's what this statement connotes to me. So, if a small 45-kilogram cougar can kill a 272 kg bison, then a cougar twice its size killing a bison twice the size mentioned here, just sounds like simple maths to me. Doesn't it?):  Taken From: Cougars (by Gish Melissa): archive.org/details/cougars0000gish |
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Jul 28, 2023 13:24:35 GMT
Another VERY IMPORTANT fact about... ...American bison ( Bison bison)... ...is that they are SUBJECT to predation by the... cougar ( Puma concolor). " SUBJECT TO PREDATION on the other extremity are the moose and BISON": Taken From: The puma : legendary lion of the Americas: archive.org/details/pumalegendarylio0000tins" Its bite is so strong that a cougar can INSTANTLY kill prey as large as a 600-pound (272 kg) moose or BISON" ( The word "cougar" as used here could very well be referring to a 45 kg cougar, as cougars of that size can take down bull elk even bigger than the weight of the moose mentioned here. The word "moose" also seems to be used "interchangeably" with "bison", as if to say a cougar that can kill a moose of that size can also kill a bison of that size. Honestly, that's what this statement connotes to me. So, if a small 45-kilogram cougar can kill a 272 kg bison, then a cougar twice its size killing a bison twice the size mentioned here, just sounds like simple maths to me. Doesn't it?): Taken From: Cougars (by Gish Melissa): archive.org/details/cougars0000gishLions can hardly successfully bring down Cape buffalo so a bigger bovid falling to a much smaller cat's predation is quite a stretch. The "bite can instantly kill bison" is obviously an exaggeration. By this logic, a lion should be able to instantly kill a cape buffalo by biting but we know it can take several minutes. |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jul 28, 2023 13:48:01 GMT
kevin, The issue with bringing cape buffalo is that although bison are more powerful than them, the buffaloes might actually be more difficult for a predator to bring down. Case, in point, I can show you an account of a TIGRESS that STALEMATED a BULL gaur in a LEGITIMATE COMBAT. Both animals died at the battle's end. Now contrast that to Spanish fighting bulls that are said to have ALWAYS defeated the tiger in the bullring. Like, there isn't a SINGLE account of a tiger winning. Obviously doesn't change the fact that a gaur is a bigger and FAR stronger cattle beast than a Spanish fighting bull. It would appear that the way cattle rank in power among one another isn't necessarily a reflection of how well they would fight a predator off. Bison have not had any serious predator for countless ages. If something like a cougar (which on account of being a big cat, of belonging to the family of the greater killers on land, is far better equipped for this task than a grizzly bear or a wolf pack), was to become an apex predator, I'm betting you dollars to doughnuts, it would spell bad news for the bison. We can put cape buffaloes aside, they seem to be an exception. There are 4 (FOUR) other big cat-wild cattle relationships where the felids REGULARLY kill the cattle species at the EXACT prey to predator weight ratio I specify for cougars. Those figures WERE NOT randomly selected. Those are tiger-gaur, tiger-water buffalo, tiger-banteng, and leopard-banteng relationships. Each of those relationships exist at a REGULAR prey weight to predator weight ratio of 5:1. Sometimes the cats, woo us and make it 6:1. On SUPER RARE occasions, they can take it to 7:1. I ONLY favour a cougar to kill a bison at the SAME weight ratio as with all the other big cat- wild cattle relationships. Obviously, the word "instantly" might have been used figuratively. I think it could have meant in relation to how other MUCH LESS skilled carnivores like wolves or bears would do it. Like, a cougar's speed in killing a bison would be "instant" compared to a bear or a wolf pack which comparatively speaking would be more "sloppy."
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Jul 28, 2023 14:00:10 GMT
kevin, The issue with bringing cape buffalo is that although bison are more powerful than them, the buffaloes might actually be more difficult for a predator to bring down. Case, in point, I can show you an account of a TIGRESS that STALEMATED a BULL gaur in a LEGITIMATE COMBAT. Both animals died at the battle's end. Now contrast that to Spanish fighting bulls that are said to have ALWAYS defeated the tiger in the bullring. Like, there isn't a SINGLE account of a tiger winning. Obviously doesn't change the fact that a gaur is a bigger and FAR stronger cattle beast than a Spanish fighting bull. It would appear that the way cattle rank in power among one another isn't necessarily a reflection of how well they would fight a predator off. Bison have not had any serious predator for countless ages. If something like a cougar (which on account of being a big cat, of belonging to the family of the greater killers on land, is far better equipped for this task than a grizzly bear or a wolf pack), was to become an apex predator, I'm betting you dollars to doughnuts, it would spell bad news for the bison. We can put cape buffaloes aside, they seem to be an exception. There are 4 (FOUR) other big cat-wild cattle relationships where the felids REGULARLY kill the cattle species at the EXACT prey to predator weight ratio I specify for cougars. Those figures WERE NOT randomly selected. Those are tiger-gaur, tiger-water buffalo, tiger-banteng, and leopard-banteng relationships. Each of those relationships exist at a REGULAR prey weight to predator weight ratio of 5:1. Sometimes the cats, woo us and make it 6:1. On SUPER RARE occasions, they can take it to 7:1. I ONLY favour a cougar to kill a bison at the SAME weight ratio as with all the other big cat- wild cattle relationships. Obviously, the word "instantly" might have been used figuratively. I think it could have meant in relation to how other MUCH LESS skilled carnivores like wolves or bears would do it. Like, a cougar's speed in killing a bison would be "instant" compared to a bear or a wolf pack which comparatively speaking would be more "sloppy." The thing with spanish fighting bulls is that they're more combative than gaurs and that tigers cannot ambush them as they're in an open arena. Since Bison are generally bigger and more combative than cape buffaloes, I don't see why they should be less difficult to hunt than cape buffaloes. As for these ratios you mention, well perhaps a 60 kg puma would be able to hunt a 300 kg bison. It may have some chance but a Bison of such weight would be a yearling with barely any fighting skill. |
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Post by PumAcinonyx SuperCat on Jul 28, 2023 14:47:10 GMT
kevin , The issue with bringing cape buffalo is that although bison are more powerful than them, the buffaloes might actually be more difficult for a predator to bring down. Case, in point, I can show you an account of a TIGRESS that STALEMATED a BULL gaur in a LEGITIMATE COMBAT. Both animals died at the battle's end. Now contrast that to Spanish fighting bulls that are said to have ALWAYS defeated the tiger in the bullring. Like, there isn't a SINGLE account of a tiger winning. Obviously doesn't change the fact that a gaur is a bigger and FAR stronger cattle beast than a Spanish fighting bull. It would appear that the way cattle rank in power among one another isn't necessarily a reflection of how well they would fight a predator off. Bison have not had any serious predator for countless ages. If something like a cougar (which on account of being a big cat, of belonging to the family of the greater killers on land, is far better equipped for this task than a grizzly bear or a wolf pack), was to become an apex predator, I'm betting you dollars to doughnuts, it would spell bad news for the bison. We can put cape buffaloes aside, they seem to be an exception. There are 4 (FOUR) other big cat-wild cattle relationships where the felids REGULARLY kill the cattle species at the EXACT prey to predator weight ratio I specify for cougars. Those figures WERE NOT randomly selected. Those are tiger-gaur, tiger-water buffalo, tiger-banteng, and leopard-banteng relationships. Each of those relationships exist at a REGULAR prey weight to predator weight ratio of 5:1. Sometimes the cats, woo us and make it 6:1. On SUPER RARE occasions, they can take it to 7:1. I ONLY favour a cougar to kill a bison at the SAME weight ratio as with all the other big cat- wild cattle relationships. Obviously, the word "instantly" might have been used figuratively. I think it could have meant in relation to how other MUCH LESS skilled carnivores like wolves or bears would do it. Like, a cougar's speed in killing a bison would be "instant" compared to a bear or a wolf pack which comparatively speaking would be more "sloppy." The thing with spanish fighting bulls is that they're more combative than gaurs and that tigers cannot ambush them as they're in an open arena. Since Bison are generally bigger and more combative than cape buffaloes, I don't see why they should be less difficult to hunt than cape buffaloes. As for these ratios you mention, well perhaps a 60 kg puma would be able to hunt a 300 kg bison. It may have some chance but a Bison of such weight would be a yearling with barely any fighting skill. Yes, Spanish fighting bulls are more combative than gaurs. But, I'd wager that even if a tiger ambushed a Spanish fighting bull, the bull would still win easily. There was a now deleted answer on Quora of Spanish fighting bulls beating lions and tigers simultaneously. Like, a lion and tiger or maybe even 2 tigers would be released at once, and then the bull would proceed to massacre all of them. Even though it's still not an OFFICIAL ambush scenario, I think the time when one cat would have kept the bull occupied would have served as an "ambush scenario" in a sense for the other cat, because that's exactly what an ambush scenario is: catching the target when it's not looking, it doesn't matter whether it's just eating grass or whether it's occupied by one of your teammates. I think the fact that Spanish fighting bulls have defeated multiple big cats simultaneously is sufficient proof that even with the aid of a surprise attack, no one cat would stand a chance. I don't really want to talk about the combativeness of bison and buffaloes. I think what I'll say is this: cape buffaloes are used to fighting off big cats which as we all know are better big game hunters than ursines/wild canines. Bison haven't really got the hang of fighting something that is better adapted to kill than any other carnivore in North America. I could imagine that an emergence of the cougar as the top carnivore and their inevitable pursuit of bison could in a sense leave the cattle "lost of words", "dumbfounded", as if they were to be like "where did such a guy so good at hunting come from? We've not faced anything like this for thousands of years!" I'm glad that you too can see some sense in these ratios. Yes, a 60 kg cougar would do very well against a 300 kg cougar. It just means, a 100 kg cougar would also do very well against a 500 kg bison which we both know is an adult. Similarly, a 90 kg cougar would do very well at 450 kg of bison mass, which is a reasonable size for an adult bison. |
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