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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2023 0:31:08 GMT
This is true. There really are no other people doing it. He actually did study the performance of different LGDs and graded them on different attributes and etc and wrote a scientific paper on it. No one else takes the performance of working dogs seriously from an academic angle, so he's just all there is, even though his actual knowledge and even interest in working dog variety/performance was insanely limited. It's an un-studied field. This is why I have so brazenly and arrogantly argued I'm the biggest dog expert in the world (specifically in this variety and performance of working dogs field), because even if I'm bad at it I'm the only person even trying (and now you, my young disciple), so by default I win. I'm yet to meet the guy who is even trying or aspiring to be my rival, let alone someone succeeding or surpassing. But he also lied about the dogs predatory sequence. He tried to make a chart on how different dogs use predatory sequences and according to him: Herding Dog: Orient—>Eye—>Stalk—>Chase Pointer: Orient—>Eye—>Stalk Gun Dog: —>Orient—>Eye—>Grab-bite Sighthound: —>Orient—Eye—>Stalk—>Chase—>Grab-bite—>Kill-bite—>Dissect—>Consume Terrier: —>Orient—>Eye—>Chase—>Grab-bite—>Kill-bite—>Dissect—>Consume Bulldog: —>Orient—>Eye—>Chase—>GRAB-BITE—> And this is just so wrong I don’t know where to begin. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Feb 24, 2023 1:07:54 GMT
WyattWhat would you correct there? And where is that from? Don't think it's in the book I have (though of course he has other books and other published works). I don't see much I strongly disagree with, BUT I do think that whole approach of analysis with the stages of predation is actually a little insufficient. Like eventually a herding dog will bite, as will a pointer, eventually a bulldog will progress to a kill-bite when it's target has been rendered defenseless, etc. Instead of not having certain stages, every dog should have all the stages but just recieve maybe a different score out of 100 for how much emphasis they have on that stage. Something like that. It could even be more in depth than that because you have a readiness or urgency to perform a stage which is different from a complete obliviousness to certain stages like some dogs have. It could be a complicated puzzle to get it just right, but I get what he is saying and I think it's basically fairly accurate?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2023 1:42:04 GMT
Wyatt What would you correct there? And where is that from? Don't think it's in the book I have (though of course he has other books and other published works). I don't see much I strongly disagree with, BUT I do think that whole approach of analysis with the stages of predation is actually a little insufficient. Like eventually a herding dog will bite, as will a pointer, eventually a bulldog will progress to a kill-bite when it's target has been rendered defenseless, etc. Instead of not having certain stages, every dog should have all the stages but just recieve maybe a different score out of 100 for how much emphasis they have on that stage. Something like that. It could even be more in depth than that because you have a readiness or urgency to perform a stage which is different from a complete obliviousness to certain stages like some dogs have. It could be a complicated puzzle to get it just right, but I get what he is saying and I think it's basically fairly accurate? Thats because furmommies will use it to try to twist it. Also, herding is a hunting technique. Coppinger’s mistake first off was he only observed Border Collies with sheep. Thats it. And he also assumed this is how they would hunt elk or deer or a coon or a possum. Border Collies and any other herding dog would absolutely kill livestock. What stops them from that killing part is because of the socialization and intense training with the livestock. Observing herding dogs and getting info from top stock dog trainers, this is 100% true. The predatory sequence is meant to falsify how dogs predate. He says this as if a Border Collie is born knowing not to kill sheep or a Retriever is born knowing to not rip apart and consume ducks. With Retrievers i’ve even seen with their owners that they need constant training, even when hunting to prevent them from going after the duck. Terriers will also stalk given the chance, but could you imagine if a Terrier wasted its time stalking a quick, agile and fast rat while they are ratting? It would not be advantageous at all. These are all trained predation behaviors, not instinctive ones. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Feb 24, 2023 4:48:32 GMT
Wyatt What would you correct there? And where is that from? Don't think it's in the book I have (though of course he has other books and other published works). I don't see much I strongly disagree with, BUT I do think that whole approach of analysis with the stages of predation is actually a little insufficient. Like eventually a herding dog will bite, as will a pointer, eventually a bulldog will progress to a kill-bite when it's target has been rendered defenseless, etc. Instead of not having certain stages, every dog should have all the stages but just recieve maybe a different score out of 100 for how much emphasis they have on that stage. Something like that. It could even be more in depth than that because you have a readiness or urgency to perform a stage which is different from a complete obliviousness to certain stages like some dogs have. It could be a complicated puzzle to get it just right, but I get what he is saying and I think it's basically fairly accurate? Thats because furmommies will use it to try to twist it. Also, herding is a hunting technique. Coppinger’s mistake first off was he only observed Border Collies with sheep. Thats it. And he also assumed this is how they would hunt elk or deer or a coon or a possum. Border Collies and any other herding dog would absolutely kill livestock. What stops them from that killing part is because of the socialization and intense training with the livestock. Observing herding dogs and getting info from top stock dog trainers, this is 100% true. The predatory sequence is meant to falsify how dogs predate. He says this as if a Border Collie is born knowing not to kill sheep or a Retriever is born knowing to not rip apart and consume ducks. With Retrievers i’ve even seen with their owners that they need constant training, even when hunting to prevent them from going after the duck. Terriers will also stalk given the chance, but could you imagine if a Terrier wasted its time stalking a quick, agile and fast rat while they are ratting? It would not be advantageous at all. These are all trained predation behaviors, not instinctive ones. True, even LGDs will possibly kill sheep without proper guidance. Different dog types just have different stages either balanced, dulled, or heightened. Where a lot of people go wrong is assuming wild canines have "heightened" stages, which is not the case, they are the definition of balanced, and thus relative to many dogs they are actually "dulled" in certain categories. Herders are also actually fairly close to balanced in many categories, and thus are fairly similar basically to wolves, who btw also will "herd" hooved animals naturally. Only bulldogs, sighthounds and terriers are like "yeah I'm good, no herding necessary" and just run in and grab and attack. Most dogs, and especially wolves, like to get a feel for what they are working with before deciding to progress to an attack. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2023 5:07:35 GMT
Thats because furmommies will use it to try to twist it. Also, herding is a hunting technique. Coppinger’s mistake first off was he only observed Border Collies with sheep. Thats it. And he also assumed this is how they would hunt elk or deer or a coon or a possum. Border Collies and any other herding dog would absolutely kill livestock. What stops them from that killing part is because of the socialization and intense training with the livestock. Observing herding dogs and getting info from top stock dog trainers, this is 100% true. The predatory sequence is meant to falsify how dogs predate. He says this as if a Border Collie is born knowing not to kill sheep or a Retriever is born knowing to not rip apart and consume ducks. With Retrievers i’ve even seen with their owners that they need constant training, even when hunting to prevent them from going after the duck. Terriers will also stalk given the chance, but could you imagine if a Terrier wasted its time stalking a quick, agile and fast rat while they are ratting? It would not be advantageous at all. These are all trained predation behaviors, not instinctive ones. True, even LGDs will possibly kill sheep without proper guidance. Different dog types just have different stages either balanced, dulled, or heightened. Where a lot of people go wrong is assuming wild canines have "heightened" stages, which is not the case, they are the definition of balanced, and thus relative to many dogs they are actually "dulled" in certain categories. Herders are also actually fairly close to balanced in many categories, and thus are fairly similar basically to wolves, who btw also will "herd" hooved animals naturally. Only bulldogs, sighthounds and terriers are like "yeah I'm good, no herding necessary" and just run in and grab and attack. Most dogs, and especially wolves, like to get a feel for what they are working with before deciding to progress to an attack. Well yes and no on one end. Yes, Sighthounds, Bulldogs and Terriers are the ones who don’t really care about herding and will go in for the attack. But wolves that subjugate will do this too. The only difference is that humans have bred this subjugation wolf into a breed type rather than one wolf in the pack with this role. Here are Border Collie pups trying to kill sheep: |
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Post by Hardcastle on Feb 24, 2023 5:24:10 GMT
Wolves will eventually do it, so will a border collie, even a lab. They don't "lead" with that. A wolf by definition works through the predation stages. Different types of dogs are compelled to skip different stages or stop short of completing the sequence of stages.
The wolf is balanced, it has every stage in it's arsenal, so yes absolutely will at times behave like a bulldog or a sighthound or terrier. Depends on the circumstances and the prey animal, it's species and it's size and condition and it's own circumstances etc. Other times it will behave like a collie, other times it will behave like a pointer or a bloodhound. It's got the whole suite of dog abilities, but all of them are only at a mid tier level of intensity and aptitude.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2023 5:36:32 GMT
Wolves will eventually do it, so will a border collie, even a lab. They don't "lead" with that. A wolf by definition works through the predation stages. Different types of dogs are compelled to skip different stages or stop short of completing the sequence of stages. The wolf is balanced, it has every stage in it's arsenal, so yes absolutely will at times behave like a bulldog or a sighthound or terrier. Depends on the circumstances and the prey animal, it's species and it's size and condition and it's own circumstances etc. Other times it will behave like a collie, other times it will behave like a pointer or a bloodhound. It's got the whole suite of dog abilities, but all of them are only at a mid tier level of intensity and aptitude. Yes agreed, every dog hunting strategy you see you will see wolves doing as well. Except for Treeing Walkers; wolves ain’t as much pussies as them. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Feb 24, 2023 5:51:39 GMT
I think you'd find they are if they ran into a herd of elephants. They have it in them to be pussies.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2023 3:40:23 GMT
Wolves will eventually do it, so will a border collie, even a lab. They don't "lead" with that. A wolf by definition works through the predation stages. Different types of dogs are compelled to skip different stages or stop short of completing the sequence of stages. The wolf is balanced, it has every stage in it's arsenal, so yes absolutely will at times behave like a bulldog or a sighthound or terrier. Depends on the circumstances and the prey animal, it's species and it's size and condition and it's own circumstances etc. Other times it will behave like a collie, other times it will behave like a pointer or a bloodhound. It's got the whole suite of dog abilities, but all of them are only at a mid tier level of intensity and aptitude. And according to him, a breed like German Shepherds or Malinoises would have used all predatory patterns equally, no greater no less. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Feb 27, 2023 4:47:28 GMT
I haven't read him say that but I'm on record saying basically the same thing.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2023 5:22:50 GMT
I haven't read him say that but I'm on record saying basically the same thing. He has a lot of shit. Its in one of his books and I know. But another thing I hate about Coppinger is his opinions on his ideas. He has good ideas, but not good emphasizes or opinions on those ideas. Wolves would make great working dogs, unlike what he said. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2023 8:14:44 GMT
This is an excellent thread. Wyatt : "They [feral dogs] have amazing endurance and can run marathons and can vary, but most end up looking like wolves" I might be having a brain fart here but why then does something like dingo, a long-time wild dog, not appear to be very wolf-like appearance? Though granted you did say "most" feral dogs end up looking like wolves, implying exceptions. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Feb 27, 2023 13:07:19 GMT
I haven't read him say that but I'm on record saying basically the same thing. He has a lot of shit. Its in one of his books and I know. But another thing I hate about Coppinger is his opinions on his ideas. He has good ideas, but not good emphasizes or opinions on those ideas. Wolves would make great working dogs, unlike what he said. Well I don't agree with that one little buddy (hey, you've grown on me, and actually have interesting inquiries into the dog world that are worthy of analysis). Wolves are dog shit working dogs and to me that's obvious. Wolves are independent and highly cautious and self preserving. That inherently clashes with getting them to do what you want them to do. They have their own ideas of what they should be doing at any given time, and then also are naturally going to shirk at many of the things you might want them to do because it's too risky and doesn't make sense to them. What work would you suggest they can do? Out of curiosity? Please don't say anything connected to hunting or guarding... |
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Post by Hardcastle on Feb 27, 2023 13:21:27 GMT
This is an excellent thread. Wyatt : "They [feral dogs] have amazing endurance and can run marathons and can vary, but most end up looking like wolves" I might be having a brain fart here but why then does something like dingo, a long-time wild dog, not appear to be very wolf-like appearance? Though granted you did say "most" feral dogs end up looking like wolves, implying exceptions. I agree with you, but maybe he means when considering the great diversity of dog breeds, then sure dingoes are basically somewhat wolf-like I guess. But yeah I wouldn't say so. The "lupine" aesthetic to me is wolves, coyotes, jackals, continental herders and spitz breeds. That's about it. And out of the continental herders the malinois is "transitioning" to a "dog" aesthetic, which is how I'd describe the appearance of feral dogs and dingoes and etc. And by dog aesthetic I'm even harking back to primitive "dogs" like dholes and awds. The lupine aesthetic to me could also be considered a "jackal" aesthetic. Canids could possibly be divided at a fundamental level to foxes, jackals, and dogs. Wolves, as I have said elsewhere, are actually kind of a giant social-leaning jackal. That's their history and to me their appearance. The "dogs" would be the extremely social pack units like dholes and AWDs and bushdogs and quite a few extinct species. Then you have foxes which are stealthy and sneaky elusive lower trophic level carnivores. Domestic dogs, despite being wolves and thus genetically from a jackal-like background, start looking at least superficially doggy in many instances. They don't have the pack cohesion or the lack of sexual dimorphism or the weird communicative vocalisations or anything, but some start getting a doggy look. Dingoes included (which do yodel, but was thinking more of the strange chirping and etc the "true dogs" do among themselves in their massive tight knit social units. To me (and no one else says this btw, it's just a me thing) wolves are an extension of the jackal strain and by extension of that extension domestic dogs are too, BUT they are incidentally doggish in appearance in many cases. The lupine domestic dogs are a minority. And for the record I have a strong instinctual aversion to lupine looking dogs. Don't know what it is, don't like them. Seems to be in my blood. I believe it's actually a commonality that may have been shared with stone-age humans. Who absolutely had zero tolerance for wolves and jackals, BUT let their guard down for dingoes who started looking dog-esque as opposed to lupine. I have that same instinct and feel like I understand. I just can't bring myself to like german shepherds for example, or huskies. I just viscerally shirk at them. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2023 15:02:14 GMT
This is an excellent thread. Wyatt : "They [feral dogs] have amazing endurance and can run marathons and can vary, but most end up looking like wolves" I might be having a brain fart here but why then does something like dingo, a long-time wild dog, not appear to be very wolf-like appearance? Though granted you did say "most" feral dogs end up looking like wolves, implying exceptions. I agree with you, but maybe he means when considering the great diversity of dog breeds, then sure dingoes are basically somewhat wolf-like I guess. But yeah I wouldn't say so. The "lupine" aesthetic to me is wolves, coyotes, jackals, continental herders and spitz breeds. That's about it. And out of the continental herders the malinois is "transitioning" to a "dog" aesthetic, which is how I'd describe the appearance of feral dogs and dingoes and etc. And by dog aesthetic I'm even harking back to primitive "dogs" like dholes and awds. The lupine aesthetic to me could also be considered a "jackal" aesthetic. Canids could possibly be divided at a fundamental level to foxes, jackals, and dogs. Wolves, as I have said elsewhere, are actually kind of a giant social-leaning jackal. That's their history and to me their appearance. The "dogs" would be the extremely social pack units like dholes and AWDs and bushdogs and quite a few extinct species. Then you have foxes which are stealthy and sneaky elusive lower trophic level carnivores. Domestic dogs, despite being wolves and thus genetically from a jackal-like background, start looking at least superficially doggy in many instances. They don't have the pack cohesion or the lack of sexual dimorphism or the weird communicative vocalisations or anything, but some start getting a doggy look. Dingoes included (which do yodel, but was thinking more of the strange chirping and etc the "true dogs" do among themselves in their massive tight knit social units. To me (and no one else says this btw, it's just a me thing) wolves are an extension of the jackal strain and by extension of that extension domestic dogs are too, BUT they are incidentally doggish in appearance in many cases. The lupine domestic dogs are a minority. And for the record I have a strong instinctual aversion to lupine looking dogs. Don't know what it is, don't like them. Seems to be in my blood. I believe it's actually a commonality that may have been shared with stone-age humans. Who absolutely had zero tolerance for wolves and jackals, BUT let their guard down for dingoes who started looking dog-esque as opposed to lupine. I have that same instinct and feel like I understand. I just can't bring myself to like german shepherds for example, or huskies. I just viscerally shirk at them. I'll have to come back to this post later. From tomorrow for 2 weeks I won't be online that much but will still check in a bit every day or every other day  |
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