Best Livestock Guardian Dog

[Deleted]

I have no idea honestly.

[Deleted]

They have their ups and downs. ''Fluffy whites'' (New World) such as Maremmas/Great Pyrenees (synonymous) are best for nurturing the flock and require little to no training. There's no concern about them killing livestock and all of their prey drive is gone.
Fluffy whites are all about avoiding a fight. Their line of defense is scent marking and barking, which works but if something significant like a wolf really wants to do one in, it will. Same for cougars and leopards occasionally. Still, they are perfectly viable and tough, rugged dogs. Though in heavy wolf country you want tougher dogs. Cougar, bear and coyote country is fine, those animals are going to get killed and harassed respectively. Though some fluffy whites will bark at coyotes and I haven't heard of any kills but I know some do. There are also throwback dogs, like a freak Great Pyrenees named ''Tio'' that killed a cougar. (Will post the account if asked.)

Archaic LGDs are more primitive, descending from primitive sighthounds used to guard livestock that catch their own rabbits. They have primitive dog instincts, and were the first LGDs. They generally require a bit of training to be optimal. Great for leading flocks across mountains and fending off wolves. Unlike fluffy whites they genuinely have an interest in butchering other predators to death, and other animals in general, and even sheep from other LGDs. Different LGD packs will actually get into skirmishes and lead their flock away from each other.
These LGDs kill and eat on their own, small game like rabbits and also big game like kudu. They're a natural wild animal basically.
These drives make it so that they require some training to not be rough with livestock or chase predators too far. Then the wolves double back and take a sheep. With an older dog to correct them they're great.

The best are usually crosses of the above, they don't need the training, don't chase predators far while also not being cowards.

On the other token we have scruffy village dogs related to neither of the above which aren't LGDs that are the Mongolian Sheepdog/Gaddi Kutta/Tibetan Mastiff/similar which are 120lb general guard dogs. They will fight if they have something to fight for, and then also provide terrible performances with wolves and snow leopards when feral. However at their optimal if they want to fight they're not pushovers. Though they'd rather skirmish than actually fight, and that's what they do. See here they have no actual interest in making a kill and neither do the wolves.

They're somewhere in between fluffy whites and archaic LGDs while leaning towards the latter, convergent evolution with the Caucasian Shepherd with a softer temperament. They're good flock guardians but I'm not quite sure where they rank. The genuine LGDs are a bit better.

Overall it's a matter of personal preference, the training of the dog and the nature of the individual.

[Hardcastle]

It's a very interesting topic. Hopefully it stirs up Musth

Whenever it comes up MOST people tend to jump to the toughest livestock guardian dog. That is pretty clearly the central Asian shepherds (alabai, volkodav, sarabi, kuchi, gampr, et al), with kangals right there with them (maybe a fraction behind- though... debatable), then in the middle you'd have a bunch of others which are pretty rugged (like sarplaninacs, transmontanos, Bankhars maybe) and then finally most agree down the bottom are the "sheep impersonator" white fluffballs; the Pyrenees being notoriously the wussiest, but it's basically the same animal as the maremma, kuvasz, akbash, tatra, etc etc.

My take is a little different, I mean I agree with this basic ranking of toughness/fighting ability, but I think you can almost flip that totally when determining best livestock guardian. The reason we have so many cases of Pyrenees being killed working, is because they're actually working. And they're working because they're good at the job. I think the "fluffy whites" in general are actually more highly evolved livestock guardians, the others more rustic and "embryonic". They are worse at fighting, because ideally a livestock guardian will actually avoid fighting. Even a fight-winning LGD will be getting itself injured and compromising it's ability to perform it's role, better to be a fight avoiding de-escalator, and that's what fluffy whites are. The downside is that if push comes to shove and there's a legit fight they aren't well equipped to succeed, but generally it's better to minimise the likelihood of fights breaking out, over time that will be a more effective livestock guarding strategy.

Good fighting ability is tied inextricably with liking fighting. Therefore a livestock guardian that is good at fighting will enjoy fighting and actually go looking for it. They won't want the wolf to get away, so to speak. And that's bad for the livestock guarding operation. In two ways; you're needlessly putting the sheep's protector (yourself) in harm's way, and also you are abandoning the flock in pursuit of some fight. You could even be lured away intentionally by cunning wolves whose buddies are waiting on the other side to come and slaughter the sheep while you are off chasing the decoy.

This is why the old tribal herders who would fight their LGDs and test them in that way were actually, unknowingly, doing themselves a disservice. They're testing and selecting for fighting ability and actually draining the livestock guarding ability as a result.

The white fluffy lineage of LGDs are professional elite guardians of livestock, IMO. No interest in fighting, fully committed and dedicating to being attentive to the sheep and staying close by. They're also somewhat paranoid, dare I say scared, living life in a state of heightened alert because they're worried. The better you are at fighting you are also generally more confident and relaxed and sleep deeper and etc. Insecurity actually helps a livestock guardian be more on the ball.
They have a tendency to bark into the void, you may have seen dogs that just annoyingly bark and bark and bark at nothing. That's fear. They are warning everything around to stay away because they're worried and feeling vulnerable. They're making a forcefield of sound to try and protect themselves. White fluffy LGDs tend to do that. They're nervous and insecure, and that makes them on heightened alert. Which is ideal. They don't like fighting, so they don't go looking for fights and also are quite socially masterful to de-escalate aggression and avoid fights. They're deeply bonded with the livestock and very attentive to it and never stray away from it.
All of this makes them the best livestock guardians, but also the least cool livestock guardians and the worst at fighting of the livestock guardians.

A nice balance IMO is just a good old fashioned anatolian shepherd. Not a big monster kangal (which are bred as much or more for fighting than for livestock guarding) but a humble moderate anatolian shepherd.

Something like that. They are tough and scrappy but smart and restrained and also (probably why I like them) they have good movement and can run around and jump and stuff and have energy and I think they're just a really nice livestock guardian I could see myself having kicking around a farm doing patrols and etc. That would be my preferred livestock guardian. But I think the white fluffies are the most elite livestock guardians and the central asian shepherds are the most formidable livestock guardians.

[Hardcastle]

For the record I didn't steal Bolushi's post, lol, I had this open and was working on it while doing other stuff and didn't read his post. But yes, he's right and I largely agree with him.

[Deleted]

Feb 10, 2023 2:14:53 GMT Hardcastle said:

For the record I didn't steal Bolushi's post, lol, I had this open and was working on it while doing other stuff and didn't read his post. But yes, he's right and I largely agree with him.

I was going to put something along the lines of ''If Hardcastle beats me to this thread I am going to rape him'' and now I regret not saying it.

[Deleted]

Is the Karakachan any good?

[Deleted]

Feb 10, 2023 8:41:04 GMT @ling said:

Is the Karakachan any good?

Yeah, no better or worse than anything else. LGDs are just regional variants of 2-4 different kinds. There's Archaics (pretty sure Karakachan are in this category), fluffy whites, and I suppose there are a few ''pure'' LGDs who hover in between fluffy white and Archaic behaviorally, but if so I don't know what they are. And then there's the scruffy village dog ''LGDs'' which aren't LGDs but can work as LGDs.

[Deleted]

Feb 10, 2023 1:53:47 GMT Bolushi said:

They have their ups and downs. ''Fluffy whites'' (New World) such as Maremmas/Great Pyrenees (synonymous) are best for nurturing the flock and require little to no training. There's no concern about them killing livestock and all of their prey drive is gone.
Fluffy whites are all about avoiding a fight. Their line of defense is scent marking and barking, which works but if something significant like a wolf really wants to do one in, it will. Same for cougars and leopards occasionally. Still, they are perfectly viable and tough, rugged dogs. Though in heavy wolf country you want tougher dogs. Cougar, bear and coyote country is fine, those animals are going to get killed and harassed respectively. Though some fluffy whites will bark at coyotes and I haven't heard of any kills but I know some do. There are also throwback dogs, like a freak Great Pyrenees named ''Tio'' that killed a cougar. (Will post the account if asked.)

Archaic LGDs are more primitive, descending from primitive sighthounds used to guard livestock that catch their own rabbits. They have primitive dog instincts, and were the first LGDs. They generally require a bit of training to be optimal. Great for leading flocks across mountains and fending off wolves. Unlike fluffy whites they genuinely have an interest in butchering other predators to death, and other animals in general, and even sheep from other LGDs. Different LGD packs will actually get into skirmishes and lead their flock away from each other.
These LGDs kill and eat on their own, small game like rabbits and also big game like kudu. They're a natural wild animal basically.
These drives make it so that they require some training to not be rough with livestock or chase predators too far. Then the wolves double back and take a sheep. With an older dog to correct them they're great.

The best are usually crosses of the above, they don't need the training, don't chase predators far while also not being cowards.

On the other token we have scruffy village dogs related to neither of the above which aren't LGDs that are the Mongolian Sheepdog/Gaddi Kutta/Tibetan Mastiff/similar which are 120lb general guard dogs. They will fight if they have something to fight for, and then also provide terrible performances with wolves and snow leopards when feral. However at their optimal if they want to fight they're not pushovers. Though they'd rather skirmish than actually fight, and that's what they do. See here they have no actual interest in making a kill and neither do the wolves.

They're somewhere in between fluffy whites and archaic LGDs while leaning towards the latter, convergent evolution with the Caucasian Shepherd with a softer temperament. They're good flock guardians but I'm not quite sure where they rank. The genuine LGDs are a bit better.

Overall it's a matter of personal preference, the training of the dog and the nature of the individual.

I’d disagree on the Maremma and the Akbash. You can argue up and down its the same thing as a Great Pyrenees; but from my observation its not. Maremmas and Akbashes do need training and socialization to properly guard without killing livestock. 


On another point, Maremmas are in-between Great Pyrenees and Eastern LGD’s it comes to their livestock guarding style. They are more pushy and persuasive than Great Pyrenees, but aren’t in the same league as your Anatolian Shepherds. 

[Deleted]

Feb 10, 2023 2:13:37 GMT Hardcastle said:

It's a very interesting topic. Hopefully it stirs up Musth

Whenever it comes up MOST people tend to jump to the toughest livestock guardian dog. That is pretty clearly the central Asian shepherds (alabai, volkodav, sarabi, kuchi, gampr, et al), with kangals right there with them (maybe a fraction behind- though... debatable), then in the middle you'd have a bunch of others which are pretty rugged (like sarplaninacs, transmontanos, Bankhars maybe) and then finally most agree down the bottom are the "sheep impersonator" white fluffballs; the Pyrenees being notoriously the wussiest, but it's basically the same animal as the maremma, kuvasz, akbash, tatra, etc etc.

My take is a little different, I mean I agree with this basic ranking of toughness/fighting ability, but I think you can almost flip that totally when determining best livestock guardian. The reason we have so many cases of Pyrenees being killed working, is because they're actually working. And they're working because they're good at the job. I think the "fluffy whites" in general are actually more highly evolved livestock guardians, the others more rustic and "embryonic". They are worse at fighting, because ideally a livestock guardian will actually avoid fighting. Even a fight-winning LGD will be getting itself injured and compromising it's ability to perform it's role, better to be a fight avoiding de-escalator, and that's what fluffy whites are. The downside is that if push comes to shove and there's a legit fight they aren't well equipped to succeed, but generally it's better to minimise the likelihood of fights breaking out, over time that will be a more effective livestock guarding strategy.

Good fighting ability is tied inextricably with liking fighting. Therefore a livestock guardian that is good at fighting will enjoy fighting and actually go looking for it. They won't want the wolf to get away, so to speak. And that's bad for the livestock guarding operation. In two ways; you're needlessly putting the sheep's protector (yourself) in harm's way, and also you are abandoning the flock in pursuit of some fight. You could even be lured away intentionally by cunning wolves whose buddies are waiting on the other side to come and slaughter the sheep while you are off chasing the decoy.

This is why the old tribal herders who would fight their LGDs and test them in that way were actually, unknowingly, doing themselves a disservice. They're testing and selecting for fighting ability and actually draining the livestock guarding ability as a result.

The white fluffy lineage of LGDs are professional elite guardians of livestock, IMO. No interest in fighting, fully committed and dedicating to being attentive to the sheep and staying close by. They're also somewhat paranoid, dare I say scared, living life in a state of heightened alert because they're worried. The better you are at fighting you are also generally more confident and relaxed and sleep deeper and etc. Insecurity actually helps a livestock guardian be more on the ball.
They have a tendency to bark into the void, you may have seen dogs that just annoyingly bark and bark and bark at nothing. That's fear. They are warning everything around to stay away because they're worried and feeling vulnerable. They're making a forcefield of sound to try and protect themselves. White fluffy LGDs tend to do that. They're nervous and insecure, and that makes them on heightened alert. Which is ideal. They don't like fighting, so they don't go looking for fights and also are quite socially masterful to de-escalate aggression and avoid fights. They're deeply bonded with the livestock and very attentive to it and never stray away from it.
All of this makes them the best livestock guardians, but also the least cool livestock guardians and the worst at fighting of the livestock guardians.

A nice balance IMO is just a good old fashioned anatolian shepherd. Not a big monster kangal (which are bred as much or more for fighting than for livestock guarding) but a humble moderate anatolian shepherd.

Something like that. They are tough and scrappy but smart and restrained and also (probably why I like them) they have good movement and can run around and jump and stuff and have energy and I think they're just a really nice livestock guardian I could see myself having kicking around a farm doing patrols and etc. That would be my preferred livestock guardian. But I think the white fluffies are the most elite livestock guardians and the central asian shepherds are the most formidable livestock guardians.

Whats your opinion on the Aidi or the Atlas Mountain Dog and the Tibetan Mastiff? Im curious. Those two dog breeds seem to be village dogs which have LGD-like temperament. The Aidi though seems to be a village dog which serves as a property guardian dog, a livestock guardian dog and even a hunting dog. The Tibetan Mastiff seems to be a free-ranging farmers dog which will wander off and hunt big game and compete with other predators. Typically losing to Snow Leopards.

[Deleted]

[Hardcastle]

Feb 25, 2023 17:24:28 GMT Wyatt said:

I’d disagree on the Maremma and the Akbash. You can argue up and down its the same thing as a Great Pyrenees; but from my observation its not. Maremmas and Akbashes do need training and socialization to properly guard without killing livestock. 


On another point, Maremmas are in-between Great Pyrenees and Eastern LGD’s it comes to their livestock guarding style. They are more pushy and persuasive than Great Pyrenees, but aren’t in the same league as your Anatolian Shepherds. 

The pyrenees is definitely "the softest of the soft". So in that sense is does differ slightly from the maremma and akbash and kuvasz and tatra and cuvac and etc. But it's still basically the same animal. This lineage are IMO the most highly evolved livestock guardians, and part of that evolution is actually dialling back the fighting because it's silly and doesn't help them do their job better. The primitive societies that pre-date these lineages ASSUMED logically that fighting was important, and fought their dogs to test them, but in doing so were actually self-sabotaging in some ways because livestock guardians are better off if they dislike fighting. These fluffy white dogs evolved to play mind games and long-term strategy with wild predators. Even blending in with the sheep is part of the overall mindfuck they aim to disorient predators with. There are so many little ways in which the fluffy whites are exceptional livestock guardians, it's just that most of these have nothing to do with being formidable and even actively are opposed to being formidable.

It btw doesn't mean they are totally unformidable. The pyrenees basically is but you're right, maremma and kuvasz and akbash and etc can be fairly staunch and formidable.
I have mentioned an uncle of mine (loosely, more accurately an uncle of my cousin but also one of my dad's best friends growing up, complicated redneck shit) who breeds maremma and is a sheep farmer. He had a story about a maremma beating up a bull arab. Now pretty cool right, but the point of the story was how weird it was, and how funny it was. Because it's a given to such people that some fluffy sheep dog obviously isn't beating up a tough pig dog, common knowledge among country folk, however... one did, once. Usually it went the other way, but one time he saw a maremma beat a bull arab and he thought it was amazing and hilarious and he told everyone about it for years.

In our "case based" ava culture this could get out of hand, but ... trust me. Bull arabs beat the shit out of maremmas most of the time. In fact, that individual bull arab possibly even refused to fight, because most of them are trained that way. Mine is. She could lose to a bichon frise because she absolutely will refuse to fight it.

[Hardcastle]

Feb 25, 2023 17:28:24 GMT Wyatt said:

Whats your opinion on the Aidi or the Atlas Mountain Dog and the Tibetan Mastiff? Im curious. Those two dog breeds seem to be village dogs which have LGD-like temperament. The Aidi though seems to be a village dog which serves as a property guardian dog, a livestock guardian dog and even a hunting dog. The Tibetan Mastiff seems to be a free-ranging farmers dog which will wander off and hunt big game and compete with other predators. Typically losing to Snow Leopards.

I don't have strong opinions on those breeds in particular, but generally would say that livestock guarding is an extremely ancient dog-role, and it is one which pre-dates the livestock guardian dog family by probably thousands of years. Initially they were just dogs, pariah street dogs which would chill on killing livestock, and also provide a security service of sorts because predators got them very excited. Sheep and goats learned it's better to take your chances with such village dogs, maybe get picked off here and there but more often be protected, and that's how the domestication of sheep and goats began. Humans weren't involved, they were back in their mud huts sleeping while this was going on. You still today see cases where wild animals figure out it's better to congregate near human settlements than take your chances out in the real wilderness. We have way more dense populations of kangaroos on our golf courses than out in the real outback. Even though... there's a lot out in the outback so it's not the best example. The difference would be more stark if we had more predators and didn't supress dingoes.

Livestock guardians started evolving as a distinctive type long after sheep and goats evolved to be protected by dogs. In fact the primitive dogs guarding livestock even had time to diversify into sighthounds. The azawakh actually is a livestock guardian, despite it's physique-


You'd assume it's a hunting dog, but it absolutely isn't. It hunts for itself while guarding livestock. Hares guided it's evolution into a primitive sighthound, the demands of getting enough food to eat while guarding livestock and living with humans who didn't give a shit about you and absolutely didn't feed you anything. That's why it's fast. It's only actual role in human society is guarding livestock. 

So yes, some livestock guardians can be very primitive, as a group they span the entirety of dog history. It's one of, if not THE earliest role. 

[Musth]

Feb 10, 2023 2:13:37 GMT Hardcastle said:

It's a very interesting topic. Hopefully it stirs up Musth

Whenever it comes up MOST people tend to jump to the toughest livestock guardian dog. That is pretty clearly the central Asian shepherds (alabai, volkodav, sarabi, kuchi, gampr, et al), with kangals right there with them (maybe a fraction behind- though... debatable), then in the middle you'd have a bunch of others which are pretty rugged (like sarplaninacs, transmontanos, Bankhars maybe) and then finally most agree down the bottom are the "sheep impersonator" white fluffballs; the Pyrenees being notoriously the wussiest, but it's basically the same animal as the maremma, kuvasz, akbash, tatra, etc etc.

My take is a little different, I mean I agree with this basic ranking of toughness/fighting ability, but I think you can almost flip that totally when determining best livestock guardian. The reason we have so many cases of Pyrenees being killed working, is because they're actually working. And they're working because they're good at the job. I think the "fluffy whites" in general are actually more highly evolved livestock guardians, the others more rustic and "embryonic". They are worse at fighting, because ideally a livestock guardian will actually avoid fighting. Even a fight-winning LGD will be getting itself injured and compromising it's ability to perform it's role, better to be a fight avoiding de-escalator, and that's what fluffy whites are. The downside is that if push comes to shove and there's a legit fight they aren't well equipped to succeed, but generally it's better to minimise the likelihood of fights breaking out, over time that will be a more effective livestock guarding strategy.

Good fighting ability is tied inextricably with liking fighting. Therefore a livestock guardian that is good at fighting will enjoy fighting and actually go looking for it. They won't want the wolf to get away, so to speak. And that's bad for the livestock guarding operation. In two ways; you're needlessly putting the sheep's protector (yourself) in harm's way, and also you are abandoning the flock in pursuit of some fight. You could even be lured away intentionally by cunning wolves whose buddies are waiting on the other side to come and slaughter the sheep while you are off chasing the decoy.

This is why the old tribal herders who would fight their LGDs and test them in that way were actually, unknowingly, doing themselves a disservice. They're testing and selecting for fighting ability and actually draining the livestock guarding ability as a result.

The white fluffy lineage of LGDs are professional elite guardians of livestock, IMO. No interest in fighting, fully committed and dedicating to being attentive to the sheep and staying close by. They're also somewhat paranoid, dare I say scared, living life in a state of heightened alert because they're worried. The better you are at fighting you are also generally more confident and relaxed and sleep deeper and etc. Insecurity actually helps a livestock guardian be more on the ball.
They have a tendency to bark into the void, you may have seen dogs that just annoyingly bark and bark and bark at nothing. That's fear. They are warning everything around to stay away because they're worried and feeling vulnerable. They're making a forcefield of sound to try and protect themselves. White fluffy LGDs tend to do that. They're nervous and insecure, and that makes them on heightened alert. Which is ideal. They don't like fighting, so they don't go looking for fights and also are quite socially masterful to de-escalate aggression and avoid fights. They're deeply bonded with the livestock and very attentive to it and never stray away from it.
All of this makes them the best livestock guardians, but also the least cool livestock guardians and the worst at fighting of the livestock guardians.

A nice balance IMO is just a good old fashioned anatolian shepherd. Not a big monster kangal (which are bred as much or more for fighting than for livestock guarding) but a humble moderate anatolian shepherd.

Something like that. They are tough and scrappy but smart and restrained and also (probably why I like them) they have good movement and can run around and jump and stuff and have energy and I think they're just a really nice livestock guardian I could see myself having kicking around a farm doing patrols and etc. That would be my preferred livestock guardian. But I think the white fluffies are the most elite livestock guardians and the central asian shepherds are the most formidable livestock guardians.

Honestly you pretty much hit the nail on the head. After years of research and thought I have come to conclusion yes the best LGD don’t need to be fighting all that often. The only problem is if they have to compete with wolves especially with large timer wolves in North America or wherever the wolves will eventually smell out their bluff and kill them.

For that reason I think it’s important to have, a tougher lgd with more “performance” qualities. But of course guarding or bay sitting the actual livestock will suffer. Btw I’m pretty much concluded that fighting lGD will probably make the worst lgd now. It’s hilarious watching all these breeders over seas trying to sell these “VOLKODAV” dogs as lgd and guard dogs. They’re shut at both, but really good at fighting dogs. Perhaps if you could train it with livestock and could only have one dog only then fighting would be crucial but of course your ideally always gonna need a pack for lgd and a dog trying to kill other dogs within the pack is less than idea.

I’m fact a lot of these giant exotic lgd seem to be going into a giant furry apbt, or another giant show dog.


My favourite working LGD I have seen is this breeder although he doesn’t breed anymore his kennel was called Rocky Mountain kangals. Lives right in wolf country. His dogs were large big males were 160lbs but lean. Weren’t too dog aggressive, great with livestock work in a pack but not push overs.

http://instagram.com/p/BhING7QAgRd

What I really like about them is how athletic they are. He’s got a video of them running 40mph plus beside the truck. Can’t find it for some reason.



He said they treed black bears, killed a few coyotes and chased wolves away. That’s the ideal LGD IMO. It has a few physical confrontations to prove it’s grittiness and ability to fight, but also the intelligence to deal with big game like bears, and ability to work with a pack and get along with livestock(as well as bond with them). A pure whit dog will bond with livestock better and avoid fights much more, but a wolf will or could smell its bluff, and the wolf wil more often or not have an advantage in physical confrontation.

A fighting LGD would try to dominate the next male lgd and would probably care less for the livestock in some cases. The worst cases couldn’t even be trained to get along with the livestock cause a lot of these Eastern Europe breeders really only breed them or use them for fighting dogs now.

[Musth]

I think the ideally instead of dog fighting you should just raise a pack of lgd together, and let them fight naturally in a pack and sort their own ranks out. This makes way more sense and is more natural than forcing fights. You need slightly harder dogs but not too hard or else they will only think about fighting. Dog fighting promotes huge amount of dog aggression and limits their working ability a lot. To the point they will only focus on other dogs. One of the main reason why apbt are known to be human friendly because they wanted all their focus to be on the other dog. All these Volkodav now you see on internet are very rarely with livestock, and if they are they are only with one other dog max. I have never seen them in one big pack together. Most of them you see are in tight urban environments
In small kennels never guarding. And on top of that have zero guard dog instincts against humans as well. Would probably let you take them home. Most LGD should be suspicious of humans at the very least.


At the end you will have dogs that will be able to work in a pack, but also have some experience fighting other canines(themselves), plus will have to deal with the odd predator and sometimes physically engage them as well. These dogs will have better nutritional habits with the help of humans, and the luxury’s of not having to run many miles a day. They can be more buffed out and larger than wolves, with similar intraspecific combat experience.


I’m a firm believer in what the dog is specialized in is what it will perform the best in. However tell it is proven in other areas it is that; unproven. Gripping dogs are the best at fighting ungulates, fighting dogs best at canines, etc. Lots of real gamebred apbt fight dogs actually preform bad against boar because they try to actually fight it instead of catch it. At the end though when it comes down to it for the majority of matchups we talk about I prefer dogs that have experience in combat against predators. For example I know this Airdale Terrier breeder that aims to produce a gritty versatile hunting dog, he says what produces the most culls is not catching wildboar, but actually fighting and dispatching Racoon. A predator that will actually fight like a predator. I also know a Tosa man who says that his dogs act almost fearful to wild animals they have never met. But against dogs of the same sex they are full throttle. Not saying a boar hunting dog can’t fight predators, or a fight dog can’t catch wild boar, but until proven so it is unproven. Which at least the eastern LGD breeds are proven against predators and canines. 

Each quarry or animal is different and different style tactic is used. 

I just think you need a tough dog for wolf country.

[Hardcastle]

May 11, 2023 6:09:42 GMT Musth said:

My favourite working LGD I have seen is this breeder although he doesn’t breed anymore his kennel was called Rocky Mountain kangals. Lives right in wolf country. His dogs were large big males were 160lbs but lean. Weren’t too dog aggressive, great with livestock work in a pack but not push overs.

http://instagr.am/p/BhING7QAgRd

What I really like about them is how athletic they are. He’s got a video of them running 40mph plus beside the truck. Can’t find it for some reason.



He said they treed black bears, killed a few coyotes and chased wolves away. That’s the ideal LGD IMO. It has a few physical confrontations to prove it’s grittiness and ability to fight, but also the intelligence to deal with big game like bears, and ability to work with a pack and get along with livestock(as well as bond with them). A pure whit dog will bond with livestock better and avoid fights much more, but a wolf will or could smell its bluff, and the wolf wil more often or not have an advantage in physical confrontation.

A fighting LGD would try to dominate the next male lgd and would probably care less for the livestock in some cases. The worst cases couldn’t even be trained to get along with the livestock cause a lot of these Eastern Europe breeders really only breed them or use them for fighting dogs now.

That link goes to the "American Lion Hound" instagram page? Is that what you meant to link to?
I don't know much about them but thought they were hunting dogs? Or at least the goal is to make a breed that is like hunting dogs from the past.
In fact all I know is from this video-

Seems like he's trying to recreate hunting mastiffs along the lines of fila brasileiros and vintage great danes and etc, but maybe has been misinformed on how he should go about that. His dogs are coonhound/fila/dogo/catahoula and a drop of blue lacey. He said he likes having some guarding instinct but it's not the point, and doesn't really mention livestock guarding. That said I'm not really convinced they are serious hunting dogs either.

May 12, 2023 20:04:10 GMT Musth said:

I’m a firm believer in what the dog is specialized in is what it will perform the best in. However tell it is proven in other areas it is that; unproven. Gripping dogs are the best at fighting ungulates, fighting dogs best at canines, etc. Lots of real gamebred apbt fight dogs actually preform bad against boar because they try to actually fight it instead of catch it. At the end though when it comes down to it for the majority of matchups we talk about I prefer dogs that have experience in combat against predators. For example I know this Airdale Terrier breeder that aims to produce a gritty versatile hunting dog, he says what produces the most culls is not catching wildboar, but actually fighting and dispatching Racoon. A predator that will actually fight like a predator. I also know a Tosa man who says that his dogs act almost fearful to wild animals they have never met. But against dogs of the same sex they are full throttle. Not saying a boar hunting dog can’t fight predators, or a fight dog can’t catch wild boar, but until proven so it is unproven. Which at least the eastern LGD breeds are proven against predators and canines. 

I think a lot of this has to do with upbringing as much or more so than breeding. Most working aussie pig dogs for example flat out refuse to fight other dogs, do no guarding whatsoever, and also refuse to hunt anything other than pigs (and only big pigs, ignore small ones). They ignore roos and emus and deer and hares, even dingoes, in fact dingoes have joined in on boar hunts and the pig dogs totally ignored them and let them (sadly sometimes the hunters that show up then shoot the dingo).

But all this has been essentially "beaten" into them by their owners. These guys are very good at making it clear what they expect from their dog and that they expect nothing else that is even mildly inconvenient. However, get a puppy off these guys and raise it as a normal pet dog and there's a fair chance it will be dog aggressive and guardy and hunt anything and everything it sees (including livestock) etc etc. You have to "break" it out of these behaviours. I "broke" my current dog out of dog aggression and human aggression, and pretty much horses and cattle (still not fully confident), but everything else is fair game in her mind. I've owned other dogs where absolutely everything was fair game.

It's the owners that are raising their dogs quite so "specialised", it actually comes easier and more naturally when the dog has a real job, because it comes to understand what its job is and is satisfied that it need not do anything else. I've heard of experienced pit fighting dogs that would look at a non pitbull and then look back at their owner and shrug like "what the hell is this?" and just not even consider fighting it because it's not what they're used to, so the Tosa anecdote doesn't surprise me at all, but again I think it's upbringing more than genetics.