Musth
Ruminant
Posts: 141
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Post by Musth on May 15, 2023 2:41:57 GMT
My favourite working LGD I have seen is this breeder although he doesn’t breed anymore his kennel was called Rocky Mountain kangals. Lives right in wolf country. His dogs were large big males were 160lbs but lean. Weren’t too dog aggressive, great with livestock work in a pack but not push overs. http://instagr.am/p/BhING7QAgRd What I really like about them is how athletic they are. He’s got a video of them running 40mph plus beside the truck. Can’t find it for some reason. He said they treed black bears, killed a few coyotes and chased wolves away. That’s the ideal LGD IMO. It has a few physical confrontations to prove it’s grittiness and ability to fight, but also the intelligence to deal with big game like bears, and ability to work with a pack and get along with livestock(as well as bond with them). A pure whit dog will bond with livestock better and avoid fights much more, but a wolf will or could smell its bluff, and the wolf wil more often or not have an advantage in physical confrontation. A fighting LGD would try to dominate the next male lgd and would probably care less for the livestock in some cases. The worst cases couldn’t even be trained to get along with the livestock cause a lot of these Eastern Europe breeders really only breed them or use them for fighting dogs now. That link goes to the "American Lion Hound" instagram page? Is that what you meant to link to? I don't know much about them but thought they were hunting dogs? Or at least the goal is to make a breed that is like hunting dogs from the past. In fact all I know is from this video- Seems like he's trying to recreate hunting mastiffs along the lines of fila brasileiros and vintage great danes and etc, but maybe has been misinformed on how he should go about that. His dogs are coonhound/fila/dogo/catahoula and a drop of blue lacey. He said he likes having some guarding instinct but it's not the point, and doesn't really mention livestock guarding. That said I'm not really convinced they are serious hunting dogs either. I’m a firm believer in what the dog is specialized in is what it will perform the best in. However tell it is proven in other areas it is that; unproven. Gripping dogs are the best at fighting ungulates, fighting dogs best at canines, etc. Lots of real gamebred apbt fight dogs actually preform bad against boar because they try to actually fight it instead of catch it. At the end though when it comes down to it for the majority of matchups we talk about I prefer dogs that have experience in combat against predators. For example I know this Airdale Terrier breeder that aims to produce a gritty versatile hunting dog, he says what produces the most culls is not catching wildboar, but actually fighting and dispatching Racoon. A predator that will actually fight like a predator. I also know a Tosa man who says that his dogs act almost fearful to wild animals they have never met. But against dogs of the same sex they are full throttle. Not saying a boar hunting dog can’t fight predators, or a fight dog can’t catch wild boar, but until proven so it is unproven. Which at least the eastern LGD breeds are proven against predators and canines. I think a lot of this has to do with upbringing as much or more so than breeding. Most working aussie pig dogs for example flat out refuse to fight other dogs, do no guarding whatsoever, and also refuse to hunt anything other than pigs (and only big pigs, ignore small ones). They ignore roos and emus and deer and hares, even dingoes, in fact dingoes have joined in on boar hunts and the pig dogs totally ignored them and let them (sadly sometimes the hunters that show up then shoot the dingo). But all this has been essentially "beaten" into them by their owners. These guys are very good at making it clear what they expect from their dog and that they expect nothing else that is even mildly inconvenient. However, get a puppy off these guys and raise it as a normal pet dog and there's a fair chance it will be dog aggressive and guardy and hunt anything and everything it sees (including livestock) etc etc. You have to "break" it out of these behaviours. I "broke" my current dog out of dog aggression and human aggression, and pretty much horses and cattle (still not fully confident), but everything else is fair game in her mind. I've owned other dogs where absolutely everything was fair game. It's the owners that are raising their dogs quite so "specialised", it actually comes easier and more naturally when the dog has a real job, because it comes to understand what its job is and is satisfied that it need not do anything else. I've heard of experienced pit fighting dogs that would look at a non pitbull and then look back at their owner and shrug like "what the hell is this?" and just not even consider fighting it because it's not what they're used to, so the Tosa anecdote doesn't surprise me at all, but again I think it's upbringing more than genetics. He used to primarily breed LGD his kennel at one time was called Rocky Mountain Kangals. Almost got a dog from him. He stopped breeding for LGD just due to a very limited gene pool and also mostly political shit….(was gonna send you a link but he took it down recently it looks like) But now he is primarily breeding and trying to create a biggame scent hound/ mastiff type dog. |
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Post by Bolushi on May 15, 2023 2:56:25 GMT
That link goes to the "American Lion Hound" instagram page? Is that what you meant to link to? I don't know much about them but thought they were hunting dogs? Or at least the goal is to make a breed that is like hunting dogs from the past. In fact all I know is from this video- Seems like he's trying to recreate hunting mastiffs along the lines of fila brasileiros and vintage great danes and etc, but maybe has been misinformed on how he should go about that. His dogs are coonhound/fila/dogo/catahoula and a drop of blue lacey. He said he likes having some guarding instinct but it's not the point, and doesn't really mention livestock guarding. That said I'm not really convinced they are serious hunting dogs either. I think a lot of this has to do with upbringing as much or more so than breeding. Most working aussie pig dogs for example flat out refuse to fight other dogs, do no guarding whatsoever, and also refuse to hunt anything other than pigs (and only big pigs, ignore small ones). They ignore roos and emus and deer and hares, even dingoes, in fact dingoes have joined in on boar hunts and the pig dogs totally ignored them and let them (sadly sometimes the hunters that show up then shoot the dingo). But all this has been essentially "beaten" into them by their owners. These guys are very good at making it clear what they expect from their dog and that they expect nothing else that is even mildly inconvenient. However, get a puppy off these guys and raise it as a normal pet dog and there's a fair chance it will be dog aggressive and guardy and hunt anything and everything it sees (including livestock) etc etc. You have to "break" it out of these behaviours. I "broke" my current dog out of dog aggression and human aggression, and pretty much horses and cattle (still not fully confident), but everything else is fair game in her mind. I've owned other dogs where absolutely everything was fair game. It's the owners that are raising their dogs quite so "specialised", it actually comes easier and more naturally when the dog has a real job, because it comes to understand what its job is and is satisfied that it need not do anything else. I've heard of experienced pit fighting dogs that would look at a non pitbull and then look back at their owner and shrug like "what the hell is this?" and just not even consider fighting it because it's not what they're used to, so the Tosa anecdote doesn't surprise me at all, but again I think it's upbringing more than genetics. He used to primarily breed LGD his kennel at one time was called Rocky Mountain Kangals. Almost got a dog from him. He stopped breeding for LGD just due to a very limited gene pool and also mostly political shit….(was gonna send you a link but he took it down recently it looks like) But now he is primarily breeding and trying to create a biggame scent hound/ mastiff type dog. They seem like catch dogs that just bark on the trail and it's on the cougar to scale a tree before it gets caught. I read a comment that said he had a few accidental catches on mountain lion. These dogs also catch hogs. I don't see what you gain from that any more than crossing catch dog with cur dog. Turning it into a breed is an odd thing to do. They're cool dogs though. |
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Musth
Ruminant
Posts: 141
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Post by Musth on May 17, 2023 5:45:06 GMT
He used to primarily breed LGD his kennel at one time was called Rocky Mountain Kangals. Almost got a dog from him. He stopped breeding for LGD just due to a very limited gene pool and also mostly political shit….(was gonna send you a link but he took it down recently it looks like) But now he is primarily breeding and trying to create a biggame scent hound/ mastiff type dog. They seem like catch dogs that just bark on the trail and it's on the cougar to scale a tree before it gets caught. I read a comment that said he had a few accidental catches on mountain lion. These dogs also catch hogs. I don't see what you gain from that any more than crossing catch dog with cur dog. Turning it into a breed is an odd thing to do. They're cool dogs though. He has pure lgd dogs too. He has kangals or Boz dogs that he used and bred just for livestock guarding. |
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Post by Bolushi on May 17, 2023 6:24:10 GMT
They seem like catch dogs that just bark on the trail and it's on the cougar to scale a tree before it gets caught. I read a comment that said he had a few accidental catches on mountain lion. These dogs also catch hogs. I don't see what you gain from that any more than crossing catch dog with cur dog. Turning it into a breed is an odd thing to do. They're cool dogs though. He has pure lgd dogs too. He has kangals or Boz dogs that he used and bred just for livestock guarding. Yeah I checked those out. Pretty cool. |
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Post by Hardcastle on May 17, 2023 6:26:39 GMT
Probably a smart way to minimise stock losses. Have LGDs with the livestock, and then also go out with hunting dogs looking for the local predators. Even if you don't actually catch and kill them (and I don't get the impression these dogs are) the persecution and harassment would make it a very unappealing place for them to visit/hang around.
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Musth
Ruminant
Posts: 141
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Post by Musth on May 17, 2023 7:05:34 GMT
Dogs in these videos is the ultimate LGD imo. Something tested against a wide range of quarry, and canids. I honestly prefer the Kangal build the best. Much more athletic and functional. Better for running and being agile.
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Post by Hardcastle on May 17, 2023 8:52:09 GMT
Dogs in these videos is the ultimate LGD imo. Something tested against a wide range of quarry, and canids. I honestly prefer the Kangal build the best. Much more athletic and functional. Better for running and being agile. I agree. I'm kind of fascinated by the weirdly tall and rangey kangals you see sometimes-   To really fight and kill a wolf, these things look optimal. |
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Musth
Ruminant
Posts: 141
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Post by Musth on May 17, 2023 18:33:43 GMT
Dogs in these videos is the ultimate LGD imo. Something tested against a wide range of quarry, and canids. I honestly prefer the Kangal build the best. Much more athletic and functional. Better for running and being agile. I agree. I'm kind of fascinated by the weirdly tall and rangey kangals you see sometimes- To really fight and kill a wolf, these things look optimal. I always wondered how a tall rangy fast Kangal would cross to a staghound….. I think it would add size and even teeth size to staghound. Could almost be in the step of getting the wolfhounds of old. |
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Post by homebaseblackface on Jun 9, 2023 5:18:14 GMT
Hey what's up everyone?
I'd say it depends on your needs. No expert here, but I researched LGDs for a few years as part of my long search for our next family dog.
Seems to me there are some seriously capable LGD breeds out there, and there is a lot of variability within some of them. If I recall, there are like three very unofficially recognized categories of Central Asian Shepherds. You also see some extremely large specimens depicted, usually over near their homeland. Same with Kangals – the extreme size and (in my opinion) overdone structure. I think these oversized monsters create hype and legends, but their working ability is diminished with their being oversized and just bread for being massive.
We decided the CAS was not for us after hearing repeatedly that the breed, once mature, will not tolerate visitors no matter what the owner does. Further, supposedly, the owner cannot verbally call the dog off if it attacks a stranger or visitor.
I got excited about the Boz Shepherd as it is apparently a more people-friendly and less intense Kangal.
We heard over and over from breed devotees that it will not be successful to try to keep an LGD as a house dog, and even that it would be cruel to do so. I believe there is probably truth to this, but I also believe what we were hearing was breed purists who wanted to steer people away from their chosen breed.
We will see if what we procured is going to work out as a house dog in a neighborhood. He's 50% Kangal, 25% Anatolian Shepherd (but that is broken down into about 60% Anatolian Shepherd and 40% Great Pyrenees if that makes sense), and 25% Midgard Mastiff (a hybrid of working mastiffs). Our pup is a dark brindle with a black face (hence my screen name – home guardian with black face) and black lower legs and paws, and black end of tail. Quite good looking IMO, and I find that a dark or black dog suits my security needs best.
Back to the question presented by the thread: I did no research into the Caucasian Shepherd, but I understand it to be one of the most serious, sharp and capable LGD breeds. Maybe I'm buying into hype, but it seemed way out of the realm of appropriate for my family situation.
Then you've got the Tibetan Mastiff, which I don't know if it's an LGD, but I put it in the same class as the Caucasian.
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Post by Bolushi on Jun 9, 2023 5:28:03 GMT
Hey what's up everyone? I'd say it depends on your needs. No expert here, but I researched LGDs for a few years as part of my long search for our next family dog. Seems to me there are some seriously capable LGD breeds out there, and there is a lot of variability within some of them. If I recall, there are like three very unofficially recognized categories of Central Asian Shepherds. You also see some extremely large specimens depicted, usually over near their homeland. Same with Kangals – the extreme size and (in my opinion) overdone structure. I think these oversized monsters create hype and legends, but their working ability is diminished with their being oversized and just bread for being massive. We decided the CAS was not for us after hearing repeatedly that the breed, once mature, will not tolerate visitors no matter what the owner does. Further, supposedly, the owner cannot verbally call the dog off if it attacks a stranger or visitor. I got excited about the Boz Shepherd as it is apparently a more people-friendly and less intense Kangal. We heard over and over from breed devotees that it will not be successful to try to keep an LGD as a house dog, and even that it would be cruel to do so. I believe there is probably truth to this, but I also believe what we were hearing was breed purists who wanted to steer people away from their chosen breed. We will see if what we procured is going to work out as a house dog in a neighborhood. He's 50% Kangal, 25% Anatolian Shepherd (but that is broken down into about 60% Anatolian Shepherd and 40% Great Pyrenees if that makes sense), and 25% Midgard Mastiff (a hybrid of working mastiffs). Our pup is a dark brindle with a black face (hence my screen name – home guardian with black face) and black lower legs and paws, and black end of tail. Quite good looking IMO, and I find that a dark or black dog suits my security needs best. Back to the question presented by the thread: I did no research into the Caucasian Shepherd, but I understand it to be one of the most serious, sharp and capable LGD breeds. Maybe I'm buying into hype, but it seemed way out of the realm of appropriate for my family situation. Then you've got the Tibetan Mastiff, which I don't know if it's an LGD, but I put it in the same class as the Caucasian. A ton of Kangals and the like are huge because they're bred to fight and sheer power is their best weapon. Most don't even work as LGDs. A lot are status symbols too. A friend of mine who knows LGDs and stuff pretty well wrote - "Caucasian Owtscharka are much less nice to their herd than Kangals, for example. They have to be trained specifically not to bite and injure the sheep or cattle! They herd quite effectively. Most of it is not known outside of Russia. If you read Russian descriptions of the breed it is very, very different than what we read about them in the West." They seem to be like a Kangal x German Shepherd in their behaviors. By Boz Shepherd I assume you mean the Boz Kangal? People were telling me a Boz Kangal is a hell bringer that destroys every other dog easily... I don't buy into that BS but there has to be some sort of basis for the hype like there is with the regular Kangal. The Tibetan Mastiff is a Spitz dog but convergent evolution with the Ovcharka. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jun 9, 2023 23:56:04 GMT
We decided the CAS was not for us after hearing repeatedly that the breed, once mature, will not tolerate visitors no matter what the owner does. Further, supposedly, the owner cannot verbally call the dog off if it attacks a stranger or visitor. Whenever you hear anything like this about any breed, just know it's definitely not true. You can't characterise any breed with very specific personality traits like that, they're just dogs and every individual will be different. Mostly shaped by their upbringing. Whats true about all these LGDs is they are primitive in nature and missed a lot of the advancements dogs have made in the last thousand years, they split off earlier and are relatively difficult and annoying in some ways. So- That actually has some truth to it. They're just gonna be kind of annoying and difficult and not respond to things like you expect a more advanced "civilised" dog to respond. This applies to LGDs and huskies and ibizan hounds and salukis and chow chows and shar peis and etc. Applies especially harder still to wolves and foxes. They're just kind of annoying, hard to read, they find you hard to read, they don't understand what you want. They don't realise when you're frustrated, it's hard to get in tune with them. More modern dogs are more well adapted to people. Midgard mastiffs are very good bandogs, I will say that, and I would hope (and think) you will get some of that temperament and nature, which is really good. That should be a very interesting mix. |
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Post by homebaseblackface on Jun 10, 2023 0:06:53 GMT
Hey what's up everyone? I'd say it depends on your needs. No expert here, but I researched LGDs for a few years as part of my long search for our next family dog. Seems to me there are some seriously capable LGD breeds out there, and there is a lot of variability within some of them. If I recall, there are like three very unofficially recognized categories of Central Asian Shepherds. You also see some extremely large specimens depicted, usually over near their homeland. Same with Kangals – the extreme size and (in my opinion) overdone structure. I think these oversized monsters create hype and legends, but their working ability is diminished with their being oversized and just bread for being massive. We decided the CAS was not for us after hearing repeatedly that the breed, once mature, will not tolerate visitors no matter what the owner does. Further, supposedly, the owner cannot verbally call the dog off if it attacks a stranger or visitor. I got excited about the Boz Shepherd as it is apparently a more people-friendly and less intense Kangal. We heard over and over from breed devotees that it will not be successful to try to keep an LGD as a house dog, and even that it would be cruel to do so. I believe there is probably truth to this, but I also believe what we were hearing was breed purists who wanted to steer people away from their chosen breed. We will see if what we procured is going to work out as a house dog in a neighborhood. He's 50% Kangal, 25% Anatolian Shepherd (but that is broken down into about 60% Anatolian Shepherd and 40% Great Pyrenees if that makes sense), and 25% Midgard Mastiff (a hybrid of working mastiffs). Our pup is a dark brindle with a black face (hence my screen name – home guardian with black face) and black lower legs and paws, and black end of tail. Quite good looking IMO, and I find that a dark or black dog suits my security needs best. Back to the question presented by the thread: I did no research into the Caucasian Shepherd, but I understand it to be one of the most serious, sharp and capable LGD breeds. Maybe I'm buying into hype, but it seemed way out of the realm of appropriate for my family situation. Then you've got the Tibetan Mastiff, which I don't know if it's an LGD, but I put it in the same class as the Caucasian. A ton of Kangals and the like are huge because they're bred to fight and sheer power is their best weapon. Most don't even work as LGDs. A lot are status symbols too. A friend of mine who knows LGDs and stuff pretty well wrote - "Caucasian Owtscharka are much less nice to their herd than Kangals, for example. They have to be trained specifically not to bite and injure the sheep or cattle! They herd quite effectively. Most of it is not known outside of Russia. If you read Russian descriptions of the breed it is very, very different than what we read about them in the West." They seem to be like a Kangal x German Shepherd in their behaviors. By Boz Shepherd I assume you mean the Boz Kangal? People were telling me a Boz Kangal is a hell bringer that destroys every other dog easily... I don't buy into that BS but there has to be some sort of basis for the hype like there is with the regular Kangal. The Tibetan Mastiff is a Spitz dog but convergent evolution with the Ovcharka. Yes, oversized Kangals (same with the CAS) as status symbols and fighting. Interesting to know what you friend said about the Caucasian. My understanding of LGDs in general is they are not really supposed to herd; but I guess it can vary, and I believe what your friend said. The Boz: I have not heard it called the Boz Kangal, and I am a member of the Boz Shepherd group on facebook (not that that makes me special or anything- hahaha) but nobody there calls it the Boz Kangal. I have had extensive convos with a Boz breeder in Wisconsin, and he put me in phone contact with a woman he sold a dog to. She consulted with me on the breed, as I was strongly considering one. She currently owns one Boz from him, and one from another breeder. They both describe, as other do, the Boz as being more people friendly than the Kangal and in fact this woman says her Boz will just wiggle their butts crazily upon the approach of a stranger to the house. They do bark some, yes, and they are giant so I suppose they are a deterrent to some. That breeder in WI made a point of making a video of a stranger coming to visit his property (with him there) and meeting his Boz's over the fence. So anyway, there may well be a breed called the Boz Kangal. I don't pretend to know much, and the whole topic of these Turkish breeds and others from the region is so complex. I've heard from some guys who know their breed inside and out, but I doubt there are many folks who know the facts on all these Turkish LGDs. I stay out of it and just know what I need to know. You get this stuff with the CAS as well. I understand the name Alabail to be synonymous with Central Asian Shepherd, yet some claim the Alabai is only from one region or whatever. Then there's the Turkmen Alabai, and a handful of other designations. I don't try to keep up. As I write this, however, I am reminded of a guy named... oh, shoot, his name escapes me at the moment, but he lives in Turkey, I believe, and he puts out Youtube vids on his dogs and the breeds and tries to show the intricacies of them. There is also something called Kangal.tv – a website with videos. Jessica Van Fossen I think runs it. She breeds Boz, if I recall. Then there is the Malakli. This is another breed that looks a lot like the Kangal and undoubtedly (to me anyway) shares some blood. The Malakli tends to be more massive and mastiff-like. |
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Post by homebaseblackface on Jun 11, 2023 5:14:41 GMT
We decided the CAS was not for us after hearing repeatedly that the breed, once mature, will not tolerate visitors no matter what the owner does. Further, supposedly, the owner cannot verbally call the dog off if it attacks a stranger or visitor. Whenever you hear anything like this about any breed, just know it's definitely not true. You can't characterise any breed with very specific personality traits like that, they're just dogs and every individual will be different. Mostly shaped by their upbringing. Whats true about all these LGDs is they are primitive in nature and missed a lot of the advancements dogs have made in the last thousand years, they split off earlier and are relatively difficult and annoying in some ways. So- That actually has some truth to it. They're just gonna be kind of annoying and difficult and not respond to things like you expect a more advanced "civilised" dog to respond. This applies to LGDs and huskies and ibizan hounds and salukis and chow chows and shar peis and etc. Applies especially harder still to wolves and foxes. They're just kind of annoying, hard to read, they find you hard to read, they don't understand what you want. They don't realise when you're frustrated, it's hard to get in tune with them. More modern dogs are more well adapted to people. Midgard mastiffs are very good bandogs, I will say that, and I would hope (and think) you will get some of that temperament and nature, which is really good. That should be a very interesting mix. Great points. Yeah, I realize individual dogs vary, just as individual people vary. Heck, my brother and I are very different and we were of course raised just the same. I did hear from some Alabai owners who said their dogs were friendly to strangers even in the home (yet I think most of these accounts were involving not yet fully mature Alabais). I just couldn't take the risk though. I needed to set myself up with better odds than that. I"ve got kids and we live in a neighborhood. I am very used to securing our dog away when visitors come over, and absolutely for sure when people like service people (plumbers, repairmen, etc.) came over. This, again, was with Dobermans which are extremely trainable and I do train extensively. The Alabai owners were talking (via facebook group) about how you cannot as the owner control the Alabai's actions in this regard. These dogs decide for themselves how to act with regard to strangers – developed over centuries to think and act without human intervention. That is an untenable arrangement in a home setting anything like mine. What's more, some of these Alabai devotees were outright saying that the Alabai WILL KILL a stranger in the home. On one occasion I went ahead and courteously pointed out that these folks had a major liability on their hands. If what they say is true, they are one accidentally unlocked gate or malfunctioning doorknob or torn open crate away from a tragedy that will change their lives. You are spot on on the annoying thing. These primitive breeds, I don't expect much trainability or biddability out of them. We had a Husky some years ago. When I was considering getting an American Akita, I expected essentially a better guard dog version of a Husky. Our hybrid puppy here does seem to bear out what you are saying. He does not seem to get it when I am verbally reprimanding him – well sometimes anyway. He'll just try again. Other times, he gets it and I might find myself feeling bad that I've possibly scared him. (Not that I raise my voice all that much. I'm just firm, and I do grab the scruff of the neck in conjunction with it sometimes). One thing that is different, I'm noticing, is that he seems to get it when I growl at him. He seems to respect that. I had long tried that with my Dobes, but it wasn't very effective. Anyway, he's still quite young and we are learning each other. Yes, I believe we have a good measure of the Midgard Mastiff attributes as well. The pup is very people-oriented. He loves our attention and to be near us. He is a pest sometimes crowding us. I noticed early on in a video of this pup that he was very responsive to contact by the breeder, flattening out the ears and just looking into the eyes. That has been the case with the pup in our home. His brother was less so – seeking more to find a way to escape the enclosure he was in during the short video. Our pup is showing a surprising level of trainability, despite that lack of understanding when I'm displeased. He follows simple learned commands and holds brief sits and downs until released, and waits at doorways until released. So, I do think the desired results the breeder was going for are present, at least in this individual pup. I know I'm going on extensively about our pup. Sorry if it's too much. |
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Post by homebaseblackface on Jun 11, 2023 6:10:00 GMT
I just remembered the name of the guy who puts out videos on youtube regarding the Kangal, Boz etc. He's named Akin Tulubas.
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Post by Hardcastle on Jun 11, 2023 8:40:03 GMT
Whenever you hear anything like this about any breed, just know it's definitely not true. You can't characterise any breed with very specific personality traits like that, they're just dogs and every individual will be different. Mostly shaped by their upbringing. Whats true about all these LGDs is they are primitive in nature and missed a lot of the advancements dogs have made in the last thousand years, they split off earlier and are relatively difficult and annoying in some ways. So- That actually has some truth to it. They're just gonna be kind of annoying and difficult and not respond to things like you expect a more advanced "civilised" dog to respond. This applies to LGDs and huskies and ibizan hounds and salukis and chow chows and shar peis and etc. Applies especially harder still to wolves and foxes. They're just kind of annoying, hard to read, they find you hard to read, they don't understand what you want. They don't realise when you're frustrated, it's hard to get in tune with them. More modern dogs are more well adapted to people. Midgard mastiffs are very good bandogs, I will say that, and I would hope (and think) you will get some of that temperament and nature, which is really good. That should be a very interesting mix. Great points. Yeah, I realize individual dogs vary, just as individual people vary. Heck, my brother and I are very different and we were of course raised just the same. I did hear from some Alabai owners who said their dogs were friendly to strangers even in the home (yet I think most of these accounts were involving not yet fully mature Alabais). I just couldn't take the risk though. I needed to set myself up with better odds than that. I"ve got kids and we live in a neighborhood. I am very used to securing our dog away when visitors come over, and absolutely for sure when people like service people (plumbers, repairmen, etc.) came over. This, again, was with Dobermans which are extremely trainable and I do train extensively. The Alabai owners were talking (via facebook group) about how you cannot as the owner control the Alabai's actions in this regard. These dogs decide for themselves how to act with regard to strangers – developed over centuries to think and act without human intervention. That is an untenable arrangement in a home setting anything like mine. What's more, some of these Alabai devotees were outright saying that the Alabai WILL KILL a stranger in the home. On one occasion I went ahead and courteously pointed out that these folks had a major liability on their hands. If what they say is true, they are one accidentally unlocked gate or malfunctioning doorknob or torn open crate away from a tragedy that will change their lives. You are spot on on the annoying thing. These primitive breeds, I don't expect much trainability or biddability out of them. We had a Husky some years ago. When I was considering getting an American Akita, I expected essentially a better guard dog version of a Husky. Our hybrid puppy here does seem to bear out what you are saying. He does not seem to get it when I am verbally reprimanding him – well sometimes anyway. He'll just try again. Other times, he gets it and I might find myself feeling bad that I've possibly scared him. (Not that I raise my voice all that much. I'm just firm, and I do grab the scruff of the neck in conjunction with it sometimes). One thing that is different, I'm noticing, is that he seems to get it when I growl at him. He seems to respect that. I had long tried that with my Dobes, but it wasn't very effective. Anyway, he's still quite young and we are learning each other. Yes, I believe we have a good measure of the Midgard Mastiff attributes as well. The pup is very people-oriented. He loves our attention and to be near us. He is a pest sometimes crowding us. I noticed early on in a video of this pup that he was very responsive to contact by the breeder, flattening out the ears and just looking into the eyes. That has been the case with the pup in our home. His brother was less so – seeking more to find a way to escape the enclosure he was in during the short video. Our pup is showing a surprising level of trainability, despite that lack of understanding when I'm displeased. He follows simple learned commands and holds brief sits and downs until released, and waits at doorways until released. So, I do think the desired results the breeder was going for are present, at least in this individual pup. I know I'm going on extensively about our pup. Sorry if it's too much. No it's interesting, and I hope you stick around so we get to hear more about it as it matures. Bandogs are actually unusually biddable and easy to get in tune with. Very very "sensitive" to their person and you can really connect with them. Especially the elite PP ones like those bred by Midgard. They really breed for that temperament and you end up with a dog that almost has a 6th sense for what you want out of them and what is appropriate behaviour, also a 6th sense for reading other people, including discerning between "friends" and "enemies". I can imagine that midgard blood might "correct" a lot of the problems associated with LGDs as pets, and that might become more and more true as the dog matures and bonds with you. |
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