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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2023 0:39:47 GMT
Only the first guy would know. Yes, culverts and holes are where bobcats are most dangerous. Coyotes are around 45lbs, male bobcats are around 25lbs. The dogs are around 60lbs. Side by side you wouldn't be whining about the size difference as bobcats and coyotes are light and will look closer to the dog's size. One on one they all lose, but the one who warrants the least caution is the bobcat. Against the wussiest dogs in the dog kingdom. I mean... we're not talking about spitz or curs, we're talking about an animal who will stand around barking and nipping a 20lb raccoon. And yet a 20-25lb bobcat is easy money and dies instantaneously when assailed. I don't think any of these three guys are saying bobcats are "easy money" and these three are literally the first three guys in your link. Weight does matter more than visual size because weight determines who will dominate in a grappling match, which is what both the bobcat and dog would try to accomplish, the bobcat with its arms and the dog with its head. Visual size is a positive in that it increases your reach but also a negetive because it increases your "hit box" giving the dog more places to bite. Anecdotally Raccoons have been a problem in my old neighborhood as they have seriously hurt some similarly sized neighborhood dogs and cats and there are plenty of cases online of this occurring. Raccoons also are known to puff up in a threat display to dissuade other predators from attacking such as coyotes and bobcats and presumably dogs. Although coyotes do seem to take small raccoons pretty regularly. Also bobcats do have low stamina so this comment is very interesting "I have caught bobcats in Or.,Wash., Cal., Nevada and Colorado. It does vary with where you are at and the cats are bigger in the Great Lakes area. They say they bay up more there and in the book Traveller by B.S. Jones [ I love the name of the author] he talks of dogs being killed by bobcats in Florida. Our big toms go 26 to 35 lbs here in Western Oregon. I have caught a 30lb tom that the dogs killed without leaving a mark on a dog. They can run themselves out to the point they can not fight. Dewey" As for the actual matchup, at equal lengths, the bobcat should have more robust and longer limbs so it should be able to control a grappling match with the fossa. Yeah, I didn't see that part about them running until they can't fight. Makes sense but I never actually thought so. Interesting. I have heard of animals being hounded to death, despite not being actually attacked. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2023 0:44:24 GMT
And also the fact that bobcats fight better in ditches and culverts suggest that they fight better when they can protect their backs. So either the dog runs circles around them until they tire out and give their back which is possible or more likely imo given there are usually multiple dogs, the bobcat is surrounded and thus one dog can get its back.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2023 0:53:09 GMT
And also the fact that bobcats fight better in ditches and culverts suggest that they fight better when they can protect their backs. So either the dog runs circles around them until they tire out and give their back which is possible or more likely imo given there are usually multiple dogs, the bobcat is surrounded and thus one dog can get its back. But it mentions they go for the mid section which implies a chest bite just walking through the bobcat's offense. I could entertain the dog bobbing and weaving and harassing the bobcat for a few seconds before then running up and thrashing it. Something like:  I don't know if that drawing is interpretable but whatever. Blue is bobcat's movement, black is dog's movement. The dog has to soak up all of the bobcat's damage in a ditch or culvert and the bobcat gets to strike first once the dog puts its head in. As opposed to just rushing the cat, biting its chest and killing it as it's backed up against a tree or in the open. |
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Post by CoolJohnson on Jan 31, 2023 3:47:01 GMT
Only the first guy would know. Yes, culverts and holes are where bobcats are most dangerous. Coyotes are around 45lbs, male bobcats are around 25lbs. The dogs are around 60lbs. Side by side you wouldn't be whining about the size difference as bobcats and coyotes are light and will look closer to the dog's size. One on one they all lose, but the one who warrants the least caution is the bobcat. Against the wussiest dogs in the dog kingdom. I mean... we're not talking about spitz or curs, we're talking about an animal who will stand around barking and nipping a 20lb raccoon. And yet a 20-25lb bobcat is easy money and dies instantaneously when assailed. I don't think any of these three guys are saying bobcats are "easy money" and these three are literally the first three guys in your link. Weight does matter more than visual size because weight determines who will dominate in a grappling match, which is what both the bobcat and dog would try to accomplish, the bobcat with its arms and the dog with its head. Visual size is a positive in that it increases your reach but also a negetive because it increases your "hit box" giving the dog more places to bite. Anecdotally Raccoons have been a problem in my old neighborhood as they have seriously hurt some similarly sized neighborhood dogs and cats and there are plenty of cases online of this occurring. Raccoons also are known to puff up in a threat display to dissuade other predators from attacking such as coyotes and bobcats and presumably dogs. Although coyotes do seem to take small raccoons pretty regularly. Also bobcats do have low stamina so this comment is very interesting "I have caught bobcats in Or.,Wash., Cal., Nevada and Colorado. It does vary with where you are at and the cats are bigger in the Great Lakes area. They say they bay up more there and in the book Traveller by B.S. Jones [ I love the name of the author] he talks of dogs being killed by bobcats in Florida. Our big toms go 26 to 35 lbs here in Western Oregon. I have caught a 30lb tom that the dogs killed without leaving a mark on a dog. They can run themselves out to the point they can not fight. Dewey" As for the actual matchup, at equal lengths, the bobcat should have more robust and longer limbs so it should be able to control a grappling match with the fossa. While the dog can kill a significantly smaller Bobcat, the feline can put up a brief but good fight. Here is a Bobcat pounding a larger plott hound.  From about 1:04. You can hear that he says 'shoot' since he had to shoot the Bobcat to save his dog. He admitted that he had to shoot the Bobcat to save his dog here.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2023 3:58:44 GMT
I don't think any of these three guys are saying bobcats are "easy money" and these three are literally the first three guys in your link. Weight does matter more than visual size because weight determines who will dominate in a grappling match, which is what both the bobcat and dog would try to accomplish, the bobcat with its arms and the dog with its head. Visual size is a positive in that it increases your reach but also a negetive because it increases your "hit box" giving the dog more places to bite. Anecdotally Raccoons have been a problem in my old neighborhood as they have seriously hurt some similarly sized neighborhood dogs and cats and there are plenty of cases online of this occurring. Raccoons also are known to puff up in a threat display to dissuade other predators from attacking such as coyotes and bobcats and presumably dogs. Although coyotes do seem to take small raccoons pretty regularly. Also bobcats do have low stamina so this comment is very interesting "I have caught bobcats in Or.,Wash., Cal., Nevada and Colorado. It does vary with where you are at and the cats are bigger in the Great Lakes area. They say they bay up more there and in the book Traveller by B.S. Jones [ I love the name of the author] he talks of dogs being killed by bobcats in Florida. Our big toms go 26 to 35 lbs here in Western Oregon. I have caught a 30lb tom that the dogs killed without leaving a mark on a dog. They can run themselves out to the point they can not fight. Dewey" As for the actual matchup, at equal lengths, the bobcat should have more robust and longer limbs so it should be able to control a grappling match with the fossa. While the dog can kill a significantly smaller Bobcat, the feline can put up a brief but good fight. Here is a Bobcat pounding a larger plott hound. From about 1:04. You can hear that he says 'shoot' since he had to shoot the Bobcat to save his dog. He admitted that he had to shoot the Bobcat to save his dog here. Yes, I posted it myself. However, if the Plotthound won the video would've been deleted by YouTube. Bobcats do not have the tools to actually kill a scenthound even if it gains the upperhand. If the human was not there, the dog might've decided to let the bobcat go after the bobcat abandoned the attack and tried to run. Or it's become a standstill. |
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Post by CoolJohnson on Jan 31, 2023 6:49:43 GMT
While the dog can kill a significantly smaller Bobcat, the feline can put up a brief but good fight. Here is a Bobcat pounding a larger plott hound. From about 1:04. You can hear that he says 'shoot' since he had to shoot the Bobcat to save his dog. He admitted that he had to shoot the Bobcat to save his dog here. Yes, I posted it myself. However, if the Plotthound won the video would've been deleted by YouTube. Bobcats do not have the tools to actually kill a scenthound even if it gains the upperhand. If the human was not there, the dog might've decided to let the bobcat go after the bobcat abandoned the attack and tried to run. Or it's become a standstill. I have seen footage of dogs killing coyotes and foxes. I still haven't come across any footage of dogs killing bobcats. Maybe because the hunters actually have to kill the bobcat, or the bobcat runs off after either coming to a standstill or beating up the dog? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2023 6:58:37 GMT
Yes, I posted it myself. However, if the Plotthound won the video would've been deleted by YouTube. Bobcats do not have the tools to actually kill a scenthound even if it gains the upperhand. If the human was not there, the dog might've decided to let the bobcat go after the bobcat abandoned the attack and tried to run. Or it's become a standstill. I have seen footage of dogs killing coyotes and foxes. I still haven't come across any footage of dogs killing bobcats. Maybe because the hunters actually have to kill the bobcat, or the bobcat runs off after either coming to a standstill or beating up the dog? Footage on YouTube is rare with such things. Bobcats are usually good at getting away from dogs. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jan 31, 2023 7:54:04 GMT
I don't think any of these three guys are saying bobcats are "easy money" and these three are literally the first three guys in your link. Weight does matter more than visual size because weight determines who will dominate in a grappling match, which is what both the bobcat and dog would try to accomplish, the bobcat with its arms and the dog with its head. Visual size is a positive in that it increases your reach but also a negetive because it increases your "hit box" giving the dog more places to bite. Anecdotally Raccoons have been a problem in my old neighborhood as they have seriously hurt some similarly sized neighborhood dogs and cats and there are plenty of cases online of this occurring. Raccoons also are known to puff up in a threat display to dissuade other predators from attacking such as coyotes and bobcats and presumably dogs. Although coyotes do seem to take small raccoons pretty regularly. Also bobcats do have low stamina so this comment is very interesting "I have caught bobcats in Or.,Wash., Cal., Nevada and Colorado. It does vary with where you are at and the cats are bigger in the Great Lakes area. They say they bay up more there and in the book Traveller by B.S. Jones [ I love the name of the author] he talks of dogs being killed by bobcats in Florida. Our big toms go 26 to 35 lbs here in Western Oregon. I have caught a 30lb tom that the dogs killed without leaving a mark on a dog. They can run themselves out to the point they can not fight. Dewey" As for the actual matchup, at equal lengths, the bobcat should have more robust and longer limbs so it should be able to control a grappling match with the fossa. While the dog can kill a significantly smaller Bobcat, the feline can put up a brief but good fight. Here is a Bobcat pounding a larger plott hound. From about 1:04. You can hear that he says 'shoot' since he had to shoot the Bobcat to save his dog. He admitted that he had to shoot the Bobcat to save his dog here. This kind of stuff has really been a thorn in my side for a while. People on animal forums are never tuned in to how hunters talk and the bullshit they say and what's real and what isn't. He "admitted" that he had to shoot the bobcat to "save" the dog... ok... That's not a shameful confession, this is actually a brag. And a lie. People on animal forums with an AvA mindset have a lot of funny ideas about how hunters think. They think their priority is showing off that their cool tough dog can kill wild animals, when that couldn't be further from the truth. It's actually a shameful secret when their dogs kill a wild animal, and that's not an exaggeration. There was a very telling thread on biggamehoundsmen.com where they all were hyping how dangerous bobcats are and then 1 brave guy is like "well ... I dunno ... 30 years hunting bobcats I've actually never had one hurt a dog badly, in fact my dogs kill them before I get there most of the time" then another emboldened guy comes in all shy like "... yeah, that's kind of my experience too actually", one guy holds on "but the razor claws are like a blender and ...", "so you've actually had your dogs injured or killed by bobcats?" "uuhhh ... no... but I heard about a guy in montana once..." and basically the whole thing slowly unravels and, much to all of their collective chagrins, the facade of bobcats being dog destroyers just completely is exposed as total mythological BS. A myth they'd all been trying to promote to the public, but amongst themselves they couldn't stomach the guilt of all knowing each of them is lying. "Who are we fooling here?" was the basic conclusion of the discussion. They WANT that to be true, that their dogs are in danger and they have to shoot to save them, but it's not. They definitely want the general public to think it's true. The criticism they recieve and care about is not "your dog is a wuss", it's "you're a monster killing innocent animals, killing pure majestic wild animals for no reason and also endangering your dogs for no reason, you bastard, we're gonna take your guns and make hunting illegal, you sadistic sociopath piece of shit". Then they might also add that their dogs are murderous bloodthirsty savage beasts themselves. THAT is what is constantly on their mind every time they are presenting anything online to the public. So their mentality is trying to demonstrate that the animals they hunt are monsters  AND that they are looking after their dogs. Who are not monsters. It's all bullshit, I say that because it's my family culture. I was born into it, immersed and surrounded by it from infancy and it is running in my veins. But I am also separated from it because my dad moved us to the city, so I'm not swept up in the hick "shoot, shovel and shut up" mindset. One foot in both worlds, I can see exactly what is going on. The hicks don't even understand what would appease the city slickers. They can't wrap their mind around their way of thinking at all, but they do their best to clumsily try. So "yeah I had to shoot it unfortunately because it was attacking my dog see, right there, see how it was coming right for him? Yeah he could have ahh... died, yeah for sure. You like dogs or some shit right? Like a city faggot? Yep, my poor innocent dog, had to do what I had to do. And those bobcats, they're nasty I tell ya, you should see the bad things they do... maybe you should... I dunno... relax on trying to stop me from killing them? Since they are so bad right??? Killing dogs bad right??" (not understanding there's no way city slickers will EVER think it's ok to kill them). Elephant in the room of course is he's only there to shoot the bobcat, why would you believe some bullshit excuse as to why he shot the bobcat when he got up in the morning and put on his shoes with the express intent of shooting a bobcat? This is what is ACTUALLY going on here. They don't give a single fuck if you think their dogs are wusses, they want you to think that. They will lie and say they are wusses even when they aren't. It behooves them to do so. They also want you to think the quarry is a mythical monster of epic proportions. That suits them as well. Then AvA people are like "oh you can't trust a hunter, he's gonna lie and say his dogs are really tough and can fight and kill wild animals, he's a lying dog nut". No. Extreme opposite, he doesn't give a fuck about dogs. Either them appearing tough (especially doesn't care about that at all), or them in general. Doesn't really care if they drop dead provided he has more of these "tools" to do his work. As an AvA guy you view things through an Ava lens and assume everyone has AvA on the brain, but they don't. Not even on the horizon of their mind. A guy could watch his dogs kill a thousand bobcats, and then have someone come up to him like "a bobcat would kill that mutt, asshole" and he'll be like "yeah, you're right, for sure, no contest, seen them claws, hoo boy... ". It's no skin off his nose, he doesn't care about the honour and reputation of his trusty hound and it's badass fighting ability. Couldn't be further from his purview of concerns. Now keep in mind, a plotthound is shit. I am not interested in arguing for the fighting ability of scenthounds at all. It's practically less than zero, BUT a bobcat also can't kill one. Just because that's not what a bobcat is. A eurasian lynx? Absolutely, bobcat? No. It's just never happened. And it wasn't going to happen there. The guy wasn't "saving" anything. Bobcat might have scratched it up a bit, plotthound might have even yelped and backed off, but the bobcat was in no position to even dream of killing that dog. The guy is full of shit. He's making himself a hero, rather than a perverted coward shooting wild animals for no reason. He doesn't understand his BS little off the cuff remarks will be taken this seriously by an Ava community, he couldn't even fathom what this AvA community nonsense is. When something resembling an actual discussion about hound vs bobcat in a fight "for real" comes up and they really talk about it honestly (rare, not their interest, but came up once or twice on their forums), then the truth comes out that it's all BS and bobcats, despite all their furious displays, are actually very vulnerable to a dog attack and the challenge can be keeping them alive long enough for the human to get to use his cool gun. He's very disappointed when he doesn't get to. They talk about that too. They complain about dogs killing bobcats and talk about selecting for dogs that don't, and talk about how EVEN WHEN they try and breed hounds to be wusses that won't fight they still struggle with them still killing bobcats like it's almost too low of a bar to breed a dog that bails on bobcats. For a dog to bail it has to be wracked with fear for it's safety and if it doesn't have that, it kills. They breed these scenthounds to be cowards on purpose, but there's a level of cowardice so low they struggle to achieve it with their coonhounds and the bobcat is around that level. People who master breeding dogs that cowardly are praised as magicians and their dogs highly valued. That's the scenthound world, it's very much nothing like a regular person could possibly imagine. As a dog fan we have to argue uphill against cases of dogs bred to fight bad and be cowards of course performing badly in fights, and then people are like "see even these serious hunting dogs are being beaten up so... I think a pitbull pretty much will be the same, I mean... what is gameness anyway? can only do so much , come on... be serious". Like absolutely no concept of the chasm in difference between different dog types. They are fundamentally opposite animals, not just different, polar opposites where any normal random animal is actually closer to either one, than either is to one another. On top of that we have the hunters lying to downplay dogs and "gas up" wild animals. The plight of the dog fan in AvA matchups is monumentally treacherous, and that's why I like it. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jan 31, 2023 8:34:31 GMT
I have seen footage of dogs killing coyotes and foxes. I still haven't come across any footage of dogs killing bobcats. Maybe because the hunters actually have to kill the bobcat, or the bobcat runs off after either coming to a standstill or beating up the dog? Cats are unusually good at evading capture, and so typically will be able to fling themselves away from dogs and get up a tree or something. Especially if the dogs are somewhat hesitant (which all scenthounds and curs are). The cat will usually "ward them off" with the threat of scratches for a moment and then masterfully find an escape. The "ninja" capabilities of felines should never come into question. Where bobcats do get killed, most of the time according to my lifetime of reading hunter's testimonies, is when they make the mistake of holing themselves up. This is what they will do if there is no tree. They will ward off with the threat of scratches, find an escape, but then escape down a hole or into a culvert or something. This is a big mistake for the cat, a rare mistake, because then it has no where to go, can't leap out of harm's way like a ninja. It's kind of logical because it removes the ability of the dogs to flank them, which is something all cats struggle with when dealing with canines (or hyenas for that matter). We have all seen a lion or leopard or puma or whatever hunkered down on it's haunches glancing around in a panic not sure where the next bite will come from. By backing themselves into a hole or corner of some kind they protect their "blindspots", and anything that hopes to get them will have to come through the "blender" of their claws and teeth at the front. Badgers do the same, because dogs can just easily walk around them and bite them on the ass indefinitely and never be at any risk of the badger biting them or hurting them because it doesn't have the lateral quickness. To some extent, despite their quick speeedy reputation, this is a little true for cats as well. They can spring forward with great velocity, and their hands can move with great speed and reflex, but they can't actually match the lateral footwork of dogs and even 1 on 1 can really struggle to catch a dog that is harassing them. All the worse of course with multiple dogs. So they tend to back themselves into a hole or corner, and that makes them impossible to "blindside". The downside of course is they now have no escape. With a wild canine antagonist it's probably a good idea because it's unlikely they'll willingly put themselves through the blender and take all those scratches to their delicate eyes and nose to seize the cat. Eventually the canine will just give up and wander off. With domestic hunting dogs this isn't going to happen, so it's really a big mistake. Bobcats who do this typically end up killed underground by the dog that braves the scratches. You can't really film it, but all bobcat hunters have many stories of this outcome. This undesirable outcome. They hate it. The whole fun part for them is taken away. They want cats to tree so they can shoot them, this totally spoils the fun, but it's what happens fairly regularly. |
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Post by CoolJohnson on Jan 31, 2023 20:35:39 GMT
While the dog can kill a significantly smaller Bobcat, the feline can put up a brief but good fight. Here is a Bobcat pounding a larger plott hound. From about 1:04. You can hear that he says 'shoot' since he had to shoot the Bobcat to save his dog. He admitted that he had to shoot the Bobcat to save his dog here. This kind of stuff has really been a thorn in my side for a while. People on animal forums are never tuned in to how hunters talk and the bullshit they say and what's real and what isn't. He "admitted" that he had to shoot the bobcat to "save" the dog... ok... That's not a shameful confession, this is actually a brag. And a lie. People on animal forums with an AvA mindset have a lot of funny ideas about how hunters think. They think their priority is showing off that their cool tough dog can kill wild animals, when that couldn't be further from the truth. It's actually a shameful secret when their dogs kill a wild animal, and that's not an exaggeration. There was a very telling thread on biggamehoundsmen.com where they all were hyping how dangerous bobcats are and then 1 brave guy is like "well ... I dunno ... 30 years hunting bobcats I've actually never had one hurt a dog badly, in fact my dogs kill them before I get there most of the time" then another emboldened guy comes in all shy like "... yeah, that's kind of my experience too actually", one guy holds on "but the razor claws are like a blender and ...", "so you've actually had your dogs injured or killed by bobcats?" "uuhhh ... no... but I heard about a guy in montana once..." and basically the whole thing slowly unravels and, much to all of their collective chagrins, the facade of bobcats being dog destroyers just completely is exposed as total mythological BS. A myth they'd all been trying to promote to the public, but amongst themselves they couldn't stomach the guilt of all knowing each of them is lying. "Who are we fooling here?" was the basic conclusion of the discussion. They WANT that to be true, that their dogs are in danger and they have to shoot to save them, but it's not. They definitely want the general public to think it's true. The criticism they recieve and care about is not "your dog is a wuss", it's "you're a monster killing innocent animals, killing pure majestic wild animals for no reason and also endangering your dogs for no reason, you bastard, we're gonna take your guns and make hunting illegal, you sadistic sociopath piece of shit". Then they might also add that their dogs are murderous bloodthirsty savage beasts themselves. THAT is what is constantly on their mind every time they are presenting anything online to the public. So their mentality is trying to demonstrate that the animals they hunt are monsters AND that they are looking after their dogs. Who are not monsters. It's all bullshit, I say that because it's my family culture. I was born into it, immersed and surrounded by it from infancy and it is running in my veins. But I am also separated from it because my dad moved us to the city, so I'm not swept up in the hick "shoot, shovel and shut up" mindset. One foot in both worlds, I can see exactly what is going on. The hicks don't even understand what would appease the city slickers. They can't wrap their mind around their way of thinking at all, but they do their best to clumsily try. So "yeah I had to shoot it unfortunately because it was attacking my dog see, right there, see how it was coming right for him? Yeah he could have ahh... died, yeah for sure. You like dogs or some shit right? Like a city faggot? Yep, my poor innocent dog, had to do what I had to do. And those bobcats, they're nasty I tell ya, you should see the bad things they do... maybe you should... I dunno... relax on trying to stop me from killing them? Since they are so bad right??? Killing dogs bad right??" (not understanding there's no way city slickers will EVER think it's ok to kill them). Elephant in the room of course is he's only there to shoot the bobcat, why would you believe some bullshit excuse as to why he shot the bobcat when he got up in the morning and put on his shoes with the express intent of shooting a bobcat? This is what is ACTUALLY going on here. They don't give a single fuck if you think their dogs are wusses, they want you to think that. They will lie and say they are wusses even when they aren't. It behooves them to do so. They also want you to think the quarry is a mythical monster of epic proportions. That suits them as well. Then AvA people are like "oh you can't trust a hunter, he's gonna lie and say his dogs are really tough and can fight and kill wild animals, he's a lying dog nut". No. Extreme opposite, he doesn't give a fuck about dogs. Either them appearing tough (especially doesn't care about that at all), or them in general. Doesn't really care if they drop dead provided he has more of these "tools" to do his work. As an AvA guy you view things through an Ava lens and assume everyone has AvA on the brain, but they don't. Not even on the horizon of their mind. A guy could watch his dogs kill a thousand bobcats, and then have someone come up to him like "a bobcat would kill that mutt, asshole" and he'll be like "yeah, you're right, for sure, no contest, seen them claws, hoo boy... ". It's no skin off his nose, he doesn't care about the honour and reputation of his trusty hound and it's badass fighting ability. Couldn't be further from his purview of concerns. Now keep in mind, a plotthound is shit. I am not interested in arguing for the fighting ability of scenthounds at all. It's practically less than zero, BUT a bobcat also can't kill one. Just because that's not what a bobcat is. A eurasian lynx? Absolutely, bobcat? No. It's just never happened. And it wasn't going to happen there. The guy wasn't "saving" anything. Bobcat might have scratched it up a bit, plotthound might have even yelped and backed off, but the bobcat was in no position to even dream of killing that dog. The guy is full of shit. He's making himself a hero, rather than a perverted coward shooting wild animals for no reason. He doesn't understand his BS little off the cuff remarks will be taken this seriously by an Ava community, he couldn't even fathom what this AvA community nonsense is. When something resembling an actual discussion about hound vs bobcat in a fight "for real" comes up and they really talk about it honestly (rare, not their interest, but came up once or twice on their forums), then the truth comes out that it's all BS and bobcats, despite all their furious displays, are actually very vulnerable to a dog attack and the challenge can be keeping them alive long enough for the human to get to use his cool gun. He's very disappointed when he doesn't get to. They talk about that too. They complain about dogs killing bobcats and talk about selecting for dogs that don't, and talk about how EVEN WHEN they try and breed hounds to be wusses that won't fight they still struggle with them still killing bobcats like it's almost too low of a bar to breed a dog that bails on bobcats. For a dog to bail it has to be wracked with fear for it's safety and if it doesn't have that, it kills. They breed these scenthounds to be cowards on purpose, but there's a level of cowardice so low they struggle to achieve it with their coonhounds and the bobcat is around that level. People who master breeding dogs that cowardly are praised as magicians and their dogs highly valued. That's the scenthound world, it's very much nothing like a regular person could possibly imagine. As a dog fan we have to argue uphill against cases of dogs bred to fight bad and be cowards of course performing badly in fights, and then people are like "see even these serious hunting dogs are being beaten up so... I think a pitbull pretty much will be the same, I mean... what is gameness anyway? can only do so much , come on... be serious". Like absolutely no concept of the chasm in difference between different dog types. They are fundamentally opposite animals, not just different, polar opposites where any normal random animal is actually closer to either one, than either is to one another. On top of that we have the hunters lying to downplay dogs and "gas up" wild animals. The plight of the dog fan in AvA matchups is monumentally treacherous, and that's why I like it. Ok. What would you say about those gamedog forums where you see people bragging about how their pitbull would destroy a bobcat? Or how a gamedog that loses to a bobcat is not a true gamedog? Also, the ability to kill dogs does seem to be from the Lynx and above. |
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Post by Hardcastle on Jan 31, 2023 20:49:58 GMT
Ok. What would you say about those gamedog forums where you see people bragging about how their pitbull would destroy a bobcat? Or how a gamedog that loses to a bobcat is not a true gamedog? Also, the ability to kill dogs does seem to be from the Lynx and above. Totally different community. Really no connection. They'd be more compelled to potentially hype dog fighting ability up, but at the same time also have no real world knowledge or experience with wild animals. This could manifest either way, with them potentially underestimating or overestimating wild animals, they just have no idea, so it's a crap shoot. Even for them, counter intuitively, AvA isn't really a priority. Pitbull vs non-pitbull is just nonsense like batman vs Superman. So they might say Pitbulls beat all sorts of wild animals (they probably lean this way more often, and tbf that's shrewd judgement on their part from understanding the fighting ability in Pitbulls is rare and doesn't just happen in random animals for no reason) or conversely, sometimes (less common but have seen it) they might just readily concede superiority to wild animals dismissively and really not care. "Oh no I wouldn't let my dog fight a bobcat, screw that lol". But again no actual knowledge or experience with wild animals. Either way, whether arguing for the dog or not it's largely grounded in ignorance. Hunters are different, they'll often know but what they say is typically so overly burdened with politicised agendas and motivations, you can't usually get straight talk on the subject. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2023 6:44:05 GMT
Ok. What would you say about those gamedog forums where you see people bragging about how their pitbull would destroy a bobcat? Or how a gamedog that loses to a bobcat is not a true gamedog? Also, the ability to kill dogs does seem to be from the Lynx and above. Totally different community. Really no connection. They'd be more compelled to potentially hype dog fighting ability up, but at the same time also have no real world knowledge or experience with wild animals. This could manifest either way, with them potentially underestimating or overestimating wild animals, they just have no idea, so it's a crap shoot. Even for them, counter intuitively, AvA isn't really a priority. Pitbull vs non-pitbull is just nonsense like batman vs Superman. So they might say Pitbulls beat all sorts of wild animals (they probably lean this way more often, and tbf that's shrewd judgement on their part from understanding the fighting ability in Pitbulls is rare and doesn't just happen in random animals for no reason) or conversely, sometimes (less common but have seen it) they might just readily concede superiority to wild animals dismissively and really not care. "Oh no I wouldn't let my dog fight a bobcat, screw that lol". But again no actual knowledge or experience with wild animals. Either way, whether arguing for the dog or not it's largely grounded in ignorance. Hunters are different, they'll often know but what they say is typically so overly burdened with politicised agendas and motivations, you can't usually get straight talk on the subject. Is it possible that the dogs and hunter chase the bobcat and gas it out before killing it without a fight because of the cats low stanima? Its hard to imagine a 150 pound doe to be that much less durable than a 50-70 pound dog |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2023 6:49:08 GMT
Totally different community. Really no connection. They'd be more compelled to potentially hype dog fighting ability up, but at the same time also have no real world knowledge or experience with wild animals. This could manifest either way, with them potentially underestimating or overestimating wild animals, they just have no idea, so it's a crap shoot. Even for them, counter intuitively, AvA isn't really a priority. Pitbull vs non-pitbull is just nonsense like batman vs Superman. So they might say Pitbulls beat all sorts of wild animals (they probably lean this way more often, and tbf that's shrewd judgement on their part from understanding the fighting ability in Pitbulls is rare and doesn't just happen in random animals for no reason) or conversely, sometimes (less common but have seen it) they might just readily concede superiority to wild animals dismissively and really not care. "Oh no I wouldn't let my dog fight a bobcat, screw that lol". But again no actual knowledge or experience with wild animals. Either way, whether arguing for the dog or not it's largely grounded in ignorance. Hunters are different, they'll often know but what they say is typically so overly burdened with politicised agendas and motivations, you can't usually get straight talk on the subject. Is it possible that the dogs and hunter chase the bobcat and gas it out before killing it without a fight because of the cats low stanima? Its hard to imagine a 150 pound doe to be that much less durable than a 50-70 pound dog Well bobcats always end up cornered anyway. The hunter isn't chasing anything. The bobcat just sees dogs in the forest chasing it down and then if there's no tree it assumes defense and dies. It may be exhausted, but sometimes they aren't. They can assume defense and snarl and put up defensive displays, which only serves to drain their stamina. The bobcat that jumped on the Plotthound didn't look exhausted, and to the bobcat's credit the Plotthound seemed to have a bit worse intentions than most. A 50-70lb dog fights tooth and claw, has thick skin, and is a canid which makes it an OK fighter at least as far as scenthounds go. They're horrible fighters, don't get the wrong idea, but they're sturdy mean dogs and perform better against canids. A deer is all flight, and cannot fight back in any way. |
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Post by colein on Mar 9, 2023 0:16:09 GMT
Ah but they totally are saying that. Many of them. I'm paying attention to the ones with practical experience. Not coyote only hunters giving their opinion like ''Ah a bobcat is like a chainsaw, would slice up a hound real quick!'' etc. ''I will have to differ on this subject. A coyote is harder to kill A coyote has to be chocked out finally A good kill cat dog can kill a cat quick, lot quicker than a coyote. A cat dog will get a few cuts but, a cat can,t stand to be bitten in the midsection.
A cat dog that is not afraid to get bit or scratched a little will grab the cat take the air right out of them.
Very few straight trail hounds can kill a coyote by them selves.
but a lot can kill a bobcat by them selves. This is on average coyote & average bobcat. 40 lb bobcat can be vrry tough & a 50 lb coyote can be tough. I caught a 62 lb coyote one time. Just my 2 cents worth'' The same guy goes on to say: ''I am talking one on oneA pack can do it all in short order'' ''I remember meeting a bobcat hunter in a breakfast cafe one morning, he was telling me how they have been doing etc, etc, and I was right with him until he told me how those bobcats will lay down and rip a dogs guts out with their hind feet. At that point, I hate to admit it, but I then doubted everything else he had said up to that point. I just have never seen it. It seems logical, and I have sure had my forearm scratched by a house cat kitty doing that very thing, but I just have never had a dog badly injured by a bobcat. I have had my dogs kill a lot of bobcats on the ground, much to my dismay. Our cat season is snow season, and dont like to put down on a track that wont lead to at least 30 pounds of bobcat. I cant comment on coyote, because I have never hunted them with dogs. But I will say this; our bobcats get big, but our coons actually can get just as big, and I would rather my dog fight a bobcat to the death, than to fight a coon of similar weight to the death. That dog MIGHT eventually beat the big coon, but the dog will be COMPLETELY exhausted. I have never seen that kind of hunt stopping exhaustion from a bobcat kill. There is nothing I have hunted that seems as fragile as a bobcat. I wish they did not die so easily. And I wish I could find dogs that could hold a bobcat tightly bayed, but never ever kill it. They are valiant fighters and well equiped with cutting tools, but somehow, just not very tough in my opinion. I wish they were.'' ''Hipshooter and David, you guys are certainly correct about the average bobcat being very easily killed by dogs that will FIGHT. Now if your dog just bays and nips he may never get the job done. When a dog gives a deep bite in the chest of the cat the fight is over. Just talking Texas cats now (25-30lbs.)'' ''Cats are easy for a hound to kill, except if the cat is in a hole that the hounds can't get to him. A dog that will go in and grab a cat will kill it quickly. A lots of dogs just go in get slapped and back off, that will not kill a cat. I seen many cats killed that have never let a mark on a dog. The bites and cuts will get infected easily. I have caught more coyotes on the ground than I would like to emit to. If the dogs go in and work together they will kill then also. They seem to get hurt a lot more from a coyote. Dewey'' There's more, but the key difference is those people actually know. You left out the other side of the argument that tell the opposite story. There are multiple other hunters that say otherwise, read the whole thread don't cherry pick my guy. |
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Post by Bolushi on Mar 9, 2023 2:24:43 GMT
Ah but they totally are saying that. Many of them. I'm paying attention to the ones with practical experience. Not coyote only hunters giving their opinion like ''Ah a bobcat is like a chainsaw, would slice up a hound real quick!'' etc. ''I will have to differ on this subject. A coyote is harder to kill A coyote has to be chocked out finally A good kill cat dog can kill a cat quick, lot quicker than a coyote. A cat dog will get a few cuts but, a cat can,t stand to be bitten in the midsection.
A cat dog that is not afraid to get bit or scratched a little will grab the cat take the air right out of them.
Very few straight trail hounds can kill a coyote by them selves.
but a lot can kill a bobcat by them selves. This is on average coyote & average bobcat. 40 lb bobcat can be vrry tough & a 50 lb coyote can be tough. I caught a 62 lb coyote one time. Just my 2 cents worth'' The same guy goes on to say: ''I am talking one on oneA pack can do it all in short order'' ''I remember meeting a bobcat hunter in a breakfast cafe one morning, he was telling me how they have been doing etc, etc, and I was right with him until he told me how those bobcats will lay down and rip a dogs guts out with their hind feet. At that point, I hate to admit it, but I then doubted everything else he had said up to that point. I just have never seen it. It seems logical, and I have sure had my forearm scratched by a house cat kitty doing that very thing, but I just have never had a dog badly injured by a bobcat. I have had my dogs kill a lot of bobcats on the ground, much to my dismay. Our cat season is snow season, and dont like to put down on a track that wont lead to at least 30 pounds of bobcat. I cant comment on coyote, because I have never hunted them with dogs. But I will say this; our bobcats get big, but our coons actually can get just as big, and I would rather my dog fight a bobcat to the death, than to fight a coon of similar weight to the death. That dog MIGHT eventually beat the big coon, but the dog will be COMPLETELY exhausted. I have never seen that kind of hunt stopping exhaustion from a bobcat kill. There is nothing I have hunted that seems as fragile as a bobcat. I wish they did not die so easily. And I wish I could find dogs that could hold a bobcat tightly bayed, but never ever kill it. They are valiant fighters and well equiped with cutting tools, but somehow, just not very tough in my opinion. I wish they were.'' ''Hipshooter and David, you guys are certainly correct about the average bobcat being very easily killed by dogs that will FIGHT. Now if your dog just bays and nips he may never get the job done. When a dog gives a deep bite in the chest of the cat the fight is over. Just talking Texas cats now (25-30lbs.)'' ''Cats are easy for a hound to kill, except if the cat is in a hole that the hounds can't get to him. A dog that will go in and grab a cat will kill it quickly. A lots of dogs just go in get slapped and back off, that will not kill a cat. I seen many cats killed that have never let a mark on a dog. The bites and cuts will get infected easily. I have caught more coyotes on the ground than I would like to emit to. If the dogs go in and work together they will kill then also. They seem to get hurt a lot more from a coyote. Dewey'' There's more, but the key difference is those people actually know. You left out the other side of the argument that tell the opposite story. There are multiple other hunters that say otherwise, read the whole thread don't cherry pick my guy. Maybe if I got a "oh yeah one of my dogs got killed by a bobcat in a culvert" I wouldn't've linked the thread at all. Nope, these people seen how a dog kills a bobcat but yet nobody else has seen how a bobcat kills a dog. There is no "opposite story" but there is "oh yeah bobcats are tough! Claws are like razorblades! Uhh, yeah my hounds have never been hurt by them bu- anyways shut up bobcats are tough as hell!" Find evidence of hunters saying how a bobcat killed their dog. The only thing I've heard of is the ever rare large bobcat killing a terrier in culverts. |
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